[BTS] First strikes are insane

[lymond]

There is one advantage to W III: W II. I promote my starting warrior up the woodsman path so it can scout faster once it gets to W II. If it can survive enough fights with barb archers and warriors to get to W III, I’ve got the start of a super-duper medic. Otherwise I just go up the medic line first.

And worker stealing

I didn't think you could get III without already having II

Not sure what this was in response to, but you can't get III without II....unless,ofc, you use WB

 

[jmas]

I look at healers this way.

Medic I (10% healing) is available at 5XP (Combat I, Medic I). You can get that on a Chariot pretty easily. That’s your quick and dirty utility healer in the early game.
Medic III (25% healing, cumulative) is available at 17XP… and you need a GG, of course. Assuming you have a GG you’re probably now at 25+ XP, but you need to get to 50 XP before you get Woody 3 and (40% healing).
The Woodsman line does nothing for you until you get to 10XP, when you get 15% healing. You then can get to +25% healing at 26XP (no GG needed), but again, you need to get to 50XP for 40% healing. And a GG.

So from a pure ‘how much healing does this get me’ standpoint:
Under 5 XP – no difference
5-9 XP – Medic line is better
10-16 XP – Woodsman line is better
17-25 XP, with a GG – Medic line is better
17-25 XP, no GG - Woodsman line is better
26-49 XP, no GG - Woodsman line is better
26-49 XP, with a GG - Medic line is equal to Woodsman line

Other considerations:

Woodsman is only available on Melee and Gunpowder units. So if you are working on a Horse Archer rush, for example, you may want to forego the Woodsman line for your early-game medic (but a chariot healer won’t ever have access to Woodsman, so it’s a bit of a dead-end unit).

Woodsman provides a bonus to attack and defense in forests/jungles, which is a bit of double-edged sword – Woody units can earn XP in forests, but you don’t want them defending, generally.

Medic II provides a bonus to healing for units on adjacent tiles, which can sometimes matter if half your stack is in the city you just took, and half is outside, having used up its movement points in attacking.

I don’t generally have a hard time getting units to 10XP, so I tend to go Woodsman first as a result. If I need a cheap healer fast, I can always build a Chariot in a Barracks/Stable city.

Helpful information, thank you. I haven't played for a while, but I remember that I had been going with usually just one super healer, often a GG chariot. If I was really rolling over AIs, I might get another healer. What I'm wondering about what you said, is whether you stick with a one-movement unit as your big healer (since you favor Woodsman line)? Or do you (assuming you don't have Musketeers) add the GG promotion that gives it extra movement? I don't know if that increases the XP cost of the unit much.

 

[lymond]

Helpful information, thank you. I haven't played for a while, but I remember that I had been going with usually just one super healer, often a GG chariot. If I was really rolling over AIs, I might get another healer. What I'm wondering about what you said, is whether you stick with a one-movement unit as your big healer (since you favor Woodsman line)? Or do you (assuming you don't have Musketeers) add the GG promotion that gives it extra movement? I don't know if that increases the XP cost of the unit much.

(Not sure what musketeers have to do with anything). Yeah I always give Morale first to Woody healer. I value that more than getting more medic

each new promo increases XP cost

 

[rah]

(Not sure what musketeers have to do with anything).

They have the equivalent of movement already unless you upgrade them to rifles.

 

[lymond]

They have the equivalent of movement already unless you upgrade them to rifles.

I understand that, but assuming you've nurtured a woody warrior early on, they cannot be upgraded to muskets.

The Musketeer bonus is also lost on upgrade.

 

[Fippy]

I guess Muskis make good medics overall, i like including my medics in the army for more than just healing.
Let's say we give them morale, they can now pillage and move back, or they can pick off easy targets (99% fights) for more xp with decent base strength.

 

[rah]

Yeah, if French, I'll GG a muski instead of a warrior. (unless I'm creating a nut buster movement 3cr unit. warrior to rifle) Having a few of those with your mounted troops can be useful. You'll lose a few but I don't usually settle them so I have many GG units. I'll eventually find an AI cap with enough settled ones.

 

[6K Man]

Helpful information, thank you. I haven't played for a while, but I remember that I had been going with usually just one super healer, often a GG chariot. If I was really rolling over AIs, I might get another healer. What I'm wondering about what you said, is whether you stick with a one-movement unit as your big healer (since you favor Woodsman line)? Or do you (assuming you don't have Musketeers) add the GG promotion that gives it extra movement? I don't know if that increases the XP cost of the unit much.

You can get a 2 move healer (i.e. Chariot) to Medic III easily if you have a GG. You don't even need any promotions - just add a GG to a green unit and presto, 20xp.

2xp - Combat 1 (+10% Str)
5xp - Medic 1 (+10% healing)
10xp - Medic 2 (+10% healing on adjacent tiles)
17xp(GG needed) - Medic 3. (+15% healing) Total: +10% Str, +25% healing, +10% healing on adjacent tiles

That gets you +25% healing on the same tile, +10% on adjacent tiles. But that healer can never get better than that, if it’s a mounted unit. So I wouldn't call it a Super Healer.

To get to Woodsman 3/Medic 3, you need to start with a Melee unit (annoyingly, recon units can't get Woodsman 3, per the Civilopedia). The only 2-move early-game option I can think of here is Impis (bonus - Shaka is Aggressive, so you start with Combat 1). Of course, you can always upgrade a Warrior healer to Musketeer later on.

2xp - Woodsman 1 (+20% forest/jungle defense)
5xp - Woodsman 2 (double move in forest, +30% forest/jungle defense)
10xp - Woodsman 3 (+15% healing, +50% forest/jungle attack)
17xp - Combat 1 (+10% Str)
26xp - Medic 1 (+10% healing) Total: +10% Str, +25% healing, +50% attack/defense on forest/jungle

So the Woodsman line gets you to 25% healing at 26xp instead of 17xp, but you don't need a GG to do it. And if you have a GG or anticipate having one, you can get to 26xp that way pretty easily, anyway. Getting from 10xp to 17xp with your non-Woodsman healer without a GG is pretty risky.

No matter which path you take, you don't get to the full +40% healing (Medic 3/Woodsman 3) until 50xp unless you have some shortcuts (Aggressive, Charismatic, Jaguar, Quecha, etc). Practically speaking, unless you want to burn 2 GGs on your super healer, you need one of those shortcuts. Starting with one of Aggressive/Quecha/Charismatic gets you there at 37xp, instead of 50xp. Starting with a Jaguar (free W1, plus Combat 1 since Monty is Aggressive) gets you there at 26xp. Charismatic+Aggressive gets you there at 28xp. If you play Boudica of the Aztecs, you can build a Jaguar with no Barracks, add a GG, and get a super healer at 20XP!

 

[jmas]

You can get a 2 move healer (i.e. Chariot) to Medic III easily if you have a GG. You don't even need any promotions - just add a GG to a green unit and presto, 20xp.

2xp - Combat 1 (+10% Str)
5xp - Medic 1 (+10% healing)
10xp - Medic 2 (+10% healing on adjacent tiles)
17xp(GG needed) - Medic 3. (+15% healing) Total: +10% Str, +25% healing, +10% healing on adjacent tiles

That gets you +25% healing on the same tile, +10% on adjacent tiles. But that healer can never get better than that, if it’s a mounted unit. So I wouldn't call it a Super Healer.

To get to Woodsman 3/Medic 3, you need to start with a Melee unit (annoyingly, recon units can't get Woodsman 3, per the Civilopedia). The only 2-move early-game option I can think of here is Impis (bonus - Shaka is Aggressive, so you start with Combat 1). Of course, you can always upgrade a Warrior healer to Musketeer later on.

2xp - Woodsman 1 (+20% forest/jungle defense)
5xp - Woodsman 2 (double move in forest, +30% forest/jungle defense)
10xp - Woodsman 3 (+15% healing, +50% forest/jungle attack)
17xp - Combat 1 (+10% Str)
26xp - Medic 1 (+10% healing) Total: +10% Str, +25% healing, +50% attack/defense on forest/jungle

So the Woodsman line gets you to 25% healing at 26xp instead of 17xp, but you don't need a GG to do it. And if you have a GG or anticipate having one, you can get to 26xp that way pretty easily, anyway. Getting from 10xp to 17xp with your non-Woodsman healer without a GG is pretty risky.

No matter which path you take, you don't get to the full +40% healing (Medic 3/Woodsman 3) until 50xp unless you have some shortcuts (Aggressive, Charismatic, Jaguar, Quecha, etc). Practically speaking, unless you want to burn 2 GGs on your super healer, you need one of those shortcuts. Starting with one of Aggressive/Quecha/Charismatic gets you there at 37xp, instead of 50xp. Starting with a Jaguar (free W1, plus Combat 1 since Monty is Aggressive) gets you there at 26xp. Charismatic+Aggressive gets you there at 28xp. If you play Boudica of the Aztecs, you can build a Jaguar with no Barracks, add a GG, and get a super healer at 20XP!

Thank you for the super detailed response ( and thanks to others as well)! I guess it hadn't occurred to me that the difference between having M3 ( which is how I always went as far as I remember) and both W3/M3 could be so significant. Even so, I think you're right about 2 GGs - I don't imagine that I would not be too keen to use 2 GG's on a single unit. Excellent tips on getting there with less XP-- I will remember this in future games!

 

[krikav]

One way to give your super medic a second boost is by standing super medic and a siege weapon on the same tile, that gives them both +10xp, which is often enough to get your trebuchet or cannon to CR3+movement

 

[Lennier]

That gets you +25% healing on the same tile, +10% on adjacent tiles. But that healer can never get better than that, if it’s a mounted unit. So I wouldn't call it a Super Healer.

I call that a super healer. The M3/W3 unit I call a super-duper healer.

To get to Woodsman 3/Medic 3, you need to start with a Melee unit (annoyingly, recon units can't get Woodsman 3, per the Civilopedia). The only 2-move early-game option I can think of here is Impis (bonus - Shaka is Aggressive, so you start with Combat 1). Of course, you can always upgrade a Warrior healer to Musketeer later on.

2xp - Woodsman 1 (+20% forest/jungle defense)
5xp - Woodsman 2 (double move in forest, +30% forest/jungle defense)
10xp - Woodsman 3 (+15% healing, +50% forest/jungle attack)
17xp - Combat 1 (+10% Str)
26xp - Medic 1 (+10% healing) Total: +10% Str, +25% healing, +50% attack/defense on forest/jungle

So the Woodsman line gets you to 25% healing at 26xp instead of 17xp, but you don't need a GG to do it. And if you have a GG or anticipate having one, you can get to 26xp that way pretty easily, anyway. Getting from 10xp to 17xp with your non-Woodsman healer without a GG is pretty risky.

No matter which path you take, you don't get to the full +40% healing (Medic 3/Woodsman 3) until 50xp unless you have some shortcuts (Aggressive, Charismatic, Jaguar, Quecha, etc). Practically speaking, unless you want to burn 2 GGs on your super healer, you need one of those shortcuts. Starting with one of Aggressive/Quecha/Charismatic gets you there at 37xp, instead of 50xp. Starting with a Jaguar (free W1, plus Combat 1 since Monty is Aggressive) gets you there at 26xp. Charismatic+Aggressive gets you there at 28xp. If you play Boudica of the Aztecs, you can build a Jaguar with no Barracks, add a GG, and get a super healer at 20XP!

There is another way--get lucky with barb fights with your starting warrior, so it's at W3 with 10 xp. Attach your first GG to it--that's 30 xp and W3/C1/M1. Then let it fight "cleanup" battles (>99.9% chance of victory) til it's M3. (Still not as easy as Boudica of the Aztecs.)

 

[Fish Man]

I'm interested in knowing actually - does leadership help you get an ultramedic (medic 3 + woodie 3) faster? If you get that promo you basically get 2xp per cleanup fight instead of 1, so theoretically it should get you there faster, but is it enough to offset the extra cost from needing 1 more promo?

 

[lymond]

I usually give my woody medic Leadership after Morale. I haven't done the math on if it is faster or not, but I don't really care as it does give more xp and I tend to use my medic in combat fairly often. Once I upgrade to an Axeman they eat Archers in forest like butter. As someone alluded to above, I will often use a second GG on a small stack with that medic that will give him an xp boost as well.

 

[6K Man]

@Lennier – Yeah, but that’s 20 cleanup battles! Even if you don’t lose along the way (I’m surprised nobody has chimed in yet about losing a medic in a 99+% battle), it’ll take a long time to get there. Even if you fight every 2 turns (win battle, heal, fight again, repeat) that’s 40 turns, probably longer assuming your medic doesn’t find itself adjacent to a weak enemy unit every 2 turns.

@Fish Man – Well, if you take Leadership along the way, you need to get to 65 XP before you reach M3/W3. So you have to win 18 cleanup battles (starting at 30xp) instead of 20, or 23 cleanup battles (starting at 20xp) instead of 30. So it’s marginally faster… and I guess you get a few extra GG points towards your next GG?

@lymond – so if you take Morale and Leadership, you need what, 82 xp to get to M3/W3? 26 cleanup wins needed, if you start from 30 xp.

Unless you guys play on Marathon, it’s a loooong slog.

 

[jmas]

[Well, if you take Leadership along the way [....] I guess you get a few extra GG points towards your next GG?

.

Does Leadership give you extra points toward a GG or just 2x XP for that unit?

 

[AcaMetis]

Does Leadership give you extra points toward a GG or just 2x XP for that unit?

Just tested it, and the answer seems to be just extra unit exp. The unit is listed as getting "1+1" EXP for fighting a trivial clean-up battle, and progress towards the next GG only gets 1 exp. The unit, of course, gets 2.

 

[Lennier]

Unless you guys play on Marathon, it’s a loooong slog.

Yeah, I play Marathon.

 

[gavenkoa]

In any battle, Drill 3 promos gives a 25% chance of 4 first strikes, a 25% chance of 3 first strikes, a 25% chance of 2 first strikes and a 25% chance of 1 first strike. So 25/25/25/25, as opposed to 12.5/37.5/37.5/12.5.

Where is the source of info?

When I checked source code of game DLL I came to conclusion that each battle round defender and offender counters of "first strike" are decreased (up to zero).

Until both counters go to zero if unit wins coin flip it causes a damage only if his counter greater than zero.

Imaging unit with 2 FS vs 0 FS:

1 round: x% cause damage, 0% get damage
2 round: x% cause damage, 0% get damage
3 round: x% cause damage, 100-x% get damage
...

It doesn't give distribution like 25/25/25/25. I need to think what is the real distribution. And this would be the damage distribution, not the Win odds. Because unit lose when his HP becomes 0 or lower over different sequence of round outcomes...

It would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution if we don't have first strike or zero HP conditions... HP distribution histogram should resemble one hump camel:

 

[Lennier]

I think you misunderstood what drewisfat was saying--he was saying that with drill 3 a unit has 25% chance of having four first strikes in a battle--not that each first strike has a 25% chance of not doing damage. Once the number of first strikes is determined, the battle goes as you describe. (So against a unit that had two first strikes, a drill 3 unit would a 25% chance of having a net 2 FSs, 25% chance of having a net 1 FS, 25% chance of having no net FS, and 25% chance of the other unit getting 1 FS, each FS with the effect you describe.

 

[6K Man]

All this talk has led me to look at healing a bit more closely.

To heal at all in a turn a unit must:
a) Promote (healing 1/2 of lost damage, with each promotion);
b) Not move; or
c) Have the March promo

a) seems to be an underrated trick, and by the time I have Artillery, I refrain from promoting most of my non-siege units before combat. Bombard all defenders down to <30% strength, attack and take the city with unpromoted units, then heal the attackers by promoting immediately after the attack. The odd thing about healing-by-promotion is that each promo restores half of lost hp - other methods restore a set percentage of the total hit points (100). So If a unit is fully redlined (1 hp left out of 100), that's 49hp restored by one promotion, better than a Super Healer (!), but the next and subsequent promotions are much less useful (25hp, 12 hp, 6 hp... at most).

b) Units that don't move (or attack/pillage), heal as follows:

5HP per turn in enemy territory.
10HP per turn in neutral/friendly territory.
15HP per turn in home/allied territory, OR, in any city which is in resistance.
20HP per turn in any city which is not in resistance.

Bonus healing comes from Medic/Woodsman 3 promos (and Combat 4 and 5, rarely). The bonus is specified as a percentage, but again, that's a bit misleading; healing +25% means that a unit will get an extra 25 hp back when on the same tile as a Medic III healer - regardless if it is down 90 hit points, 50 hit points, or 10 hit points (in which case the last 15 points of healing are wasted).

What that all means is that when resting in a newly conquered city, a unit will get 40hp back in 1 turn or 80 hp back in 2 turns from a 25-hp healer. A 40hp healer (the 'super healer') will get you 55 hp in 1 turn, full healing in 2. Not really that much difference! Resting outside a conquered city, a Medic3 or W3/Medic1 unit will get back 90 hp in 3 turns, while M3/W3 will get back 90 hp in 2 turns. More significant difference there.

c) March is underrated, too. A unit without March attacks and heals the next turn (if it doesn't move) and has to stay still to keep healing. A unit with March attacks and heals the same turn, and can heal on the move. So, say you are attacking an AI city. You bombard, attack, win. Most of your stack is outside the city with no movement left. Outside the city, units heal +5hp/turn. Inside the city, it's +15hp/turn. And you have a healer - let's say +25hp, Medic3 or Woodsman3/Medic1.

Without March, you can attack, get 30hp back a turn later, or move into the city next turn and get 40 hp back 2 turns later (and 40 more the turn after that). If the unit isn't healed fully, it can rest another turn to get to 100 hp. That's 4, perhaps 5 turns before it can start moving again.

With March, you can attack, get 30 hp back before your next turn, move back into the city and get 40hp back the next turn, and then start moving towards the next target and be at 100 hp on the third turn. The downside is that you need 3 promos for March on every unit, as opposed to 7 promos on one Super Healer.