Fishing review

[Dancing Hoskuld]

See also the "Hunting Review" that I have not yet posted about dedicated Sea Hunter units.

The current system has a few issues that means it is not fully realistic.

1. In the prehistoric era people made use of coastal resources. However you can only build improvements on these resources once you have the correct navel technology.
   
   In C2C we have a building that is supposed to represent this but you can only have one even if the city has many resources in its vicinity.
   
   The new "needs resource but not the improvement or route" can sort of fix this somewhat but not if you have multiple of the same resource on the coast.
   
   
2. Sea resources that are in your territory but not in a work area of a city only provide the resource and not the yield.
   
   
3. Resources outside everyone's territory can't be exploited.

Point 1 has two parts, one of which is basically the same as point 2. The other is "how can we build an improvement on a plot we can't get to yet?".

I think what we need to fix this is for the Gatherer to have a mission that allows it to build on a coast plot next to it. This mission would go obsolete when you get the navel tech that allows work boats.

Two problems:-

1. Missions don't have a timer on them at the moment so we can't have the build take time.
   
   
2. When you get the tech what happens to the builds that are already happening?

Point 2. This can be fixed is we have a mission on work boats that lets them work a plot with an improvement on them if the improvement is in your territory but outside all city work areas.

Not sure on the best way to implement this. It is sort of a build-up promotion that sends yields to the city the work boat comes from. Might be an extension to the work done by Thunderbrd on naval merchants.

Point 3. Similar to 2. in many ways but no improvement and multiple work boats from multiple nations can go on the plot for diminishing returns. Fleets would nee protection from fish and pirates.


Events such as storms could be added. These would affect either the improvement or the units and could vary in intensity.

 

[Thunderbrd]

However you can only build improvements on these resources once you have the correct navel technology.

All boats, no matter how crude, can always travel safely within your borders. If the borders expands out to sea or ocean even a ship that must stay on the coast can go into those plots.

Plus, one of the first projects planned on this end post release is the seaworthy mod, which probably wouldn't do much to change this about workboats since they would remain non-strength'd units. But maybe it could somehow play a role with this to allow short term travel out - but if the resource isn't within borders, it won't matter if it is improved, unless that improvement automatically also claims the tile. hmm...

Raw vicinity bonus may help.

I think what we need to fix this is for the Gatherer to have a mission that allows it to build on a coast plot next to it. This mission would go obsolete when you get the navel tech that allows work boats.

Two problems:-

1. Missions don't have a timer on them at the moment so we can't have the build take time.
   
   
2. When you get the tech what happens to the builds that are already happening?

I've considered the need for something similar on Nomadic eventually. A harbor or crude craft building center improvement that can be built on the coast and can allow for the 'purchase' of a workboat, raft, canoes or early naval explorers from that position. Maybe a 'launch point' improvement that sets up an enabling boolean on adjacent sea plots that allows the simple craft to move onto land and become a weak land unit that's hauling the craft and also allows such a unit to leave into the water from that improvement to become the 'ship' unit they previously were. Some of the plans we are forming for the captives involve tags for tracking what units 'were' right? Could be equally used for this sort of application. Maybe if work boats WERE given a strength score, which would make sense if they encounter fish or something, then the seaworthiness project works as well for them to enable them the chance to get out and claim certain resources in a similar way to how forts would, adding your culture to the plot.

Point 2. This can be fixed is we have a mission on work boats that lets them work a plot with an improvement on them if the improvement is in your territory but outside all city work areas.

Not sure on the best way to implement this. It is sort of a build-up promotion that sends yields to the city the work boat comes from. Might be an extension to the work done by Thunderbrd on naval merchants.

I agree. The idea of establishing a supply chain could work just as well here.

Along these lines, should we not have a very simple improvement that can be added to any sea/lake plot that doesn't have a resource, but may detect the most useful aspect of that tile eventually, and thus have a chance to reveal a resource (as a farm or mine has a chance to reveal)? Maybe to help counter the over time influx of more resources would be to have a chance of resource destruction within the workable radius of a city based on the water pollution level of the city.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

All boats, no matter how crude, can always travel safely within your borders. If the borders expands out to sea or ocean even a ship that must stay on the coast can go into those plots.

Except you don't have boats until long after these resources were used and if you have boats as you say they will be able to improve plots in the Sea and Ocean not just the coast as is needed. I'll try and restate the problem in full as it looks like I was not clear.

In the prehistoric era people used sea bonuses which were next to the shore.

In Civ IV you can only improve these plots with work boats and only use the plots when you have the correct navel technology.

In C2C we have fixed the Mountain use problem but we have not fixed this coastal bonus problem.​

Raw vicinity bonus may help.

As I said and indicated why it was not quite good enough. For starters they are not really in the vicinity of a city until you have the first navel tech although I suspect the code does not recognize that.

Along these lines, should we not have a very simple improvement that can be added to any sea/lake plot that doesn't have a resource, but may detect the most useful aspect of that tile eventually, and thus have a chance to reveal a resource (as a farm or mine has a chance to reveal)? Maybe to help counter the over time influx of more resources would be to have a chance of resource destruction within the workable radius of a city based on the water pollution level of the city.

Biggest problems.

• If you add a resource to a freshwater lake it becomes a salt water lake. I can't remember if we fixed this or not. There are a few fresh water fish bonuses (art) out there that we don't use. In the mods they were used they were usually placed on the land next to the river or lake to avoid problems.
  
  
• The AI can't handle the problem of reduction of water yields. We tried it a long time ago in RoM. Basically if water plot don't do any checking of anything to speed up game play. This may also have changed.

I have no problems with finding new bonuses but find the way it is done on land counter intuitive in the seas. Why would you fish somewhere there are no fish? Having fish bonuses grow in a similar way to how features grow may be better. Upping the chance on finding a fish bonus when you kill a sea creature may be another option especially if added to the capture result so that you kill, capture and find a new resource.

There is an "over fishing" event but I don't think it is working properly. Perhaps something on the bonus similar to a "count down" promotion that has the improvement turn off until the fish stocks get back to normal then turns on again?

I agree. The idea of establishing a supply chain could work just as well here.

No supply chain is not what I am talking about here. At the height of the whaling industry boats would hunt all over the world and return their harvest to their home port. This is all I am talking about, returning the harvest to the home port. IE the equivalent of working a plot but not in your city's workarea.

Again, except for outside everyone's borders, you claim the plot and build the improvement on it to bet the resource. Just like in vanilla. The addition is that you send a work boat out to get the yield back to the city.

I still want outside everyone's borders to remain in game because of the fun it can add. I would change it so that you could not claim a plot with fish on it except by culture from a city or fort (or sea fort). For plots with minerals on them then perhaps you can claim them because you actually have to build a building there not a transient fishing fleet.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Except you don't have boats until long after these resources were used and if you have boats as you say they will be able to improve plots in the Sea and Ocean not just the coast as is needed. I'll try and restate the problem in full as it looks like I was not clear.

In the prehistoric era people used sea bonuses which were next to the shore.

In Civ IV you can only improve these plots with work boats and only use the plots when you have the correct navel technology.

In C2C we have fixed the Mountain use problem but we have not fixed this coastal bonus problem.

Maybe my racing mind went off the rails you intended there but it WAS an invitation to think about things and cracked open some previous thoughts in the vault on that subject.

You make a good point. I'd maybe try to address that through buildings with raw vicinity prereq, as you suggested. An improvement that provides a water adjacent resource could be interesting as well, and I guess it could also overlap with a Launch Point or some kind of beach improvement that comes earlier than boats, like maybe at spear fishing.

If you add a resource to a freshwater lake it becomes a salt water lake. I can't remember if we fixed this or not. There are a few fresh water fish bonuses (art) out there that we don't use. In the mods they were used they were usually placed on the land next to the river or lake to avoid problems.

I'm not sure where we are with that now but it's an easy fix I'm sure.

The AI can't handle the problem of reduction of water yields. We tried it a long time ago in RoM. Basically if water plot don't do any checking of anything to speed up game play. This may also have changed.

Again, it's a basic AI programming issue that should be pretty easy to prepare for. Good point that it will require that dll work though. And that makes it a project to itemize and plan for.

Why would you fish somewhere there are no fish? Having fish bonuses grow in a similar way to how features grow may be better. Upping the chance on finding a fish bonus when you kill a sea creature may be another option especially if added to the capture result so that you kill, capture and find a new resource.

I assume there's always fish (and more) in a water plot as long as there's food, just not always a large enough supply to count as the resource. The resource is an unusual abundance and quality of the type you can get there, right?

No supply chain is not what I am talking about here. At the height of the whaling industry boats would hunt all over the world and return their harvest to their home port. This is all I am talking about, returning the harvest to the home port. IE the equivalent of working a plot but not in your city's workarea.

I see your point but the same function could still represent that was my point. And usually there were particular seasonal areas that ships went whaling and fishing and crabbing and so on. The concept of the supply line from a resource would be that the unit is enabling bringing in the resource from that plot. If you wanted, we could always try to get some resource types to 'drift' on the map...

I still want outside everyone's borders to remain in game because of the fun it can add. I would change it so that you could not claim a plot with fish on it except by culture from a city or fort (or sea fort). For plots with minerals on them then perhaps you can claim them because you actually have to build a building there not a transient fishing fleet.

Ok, I can agree it shouldn't be necessary to have to officially lay culture claim to the plot. BUT if you did, you could make it so that competitors can't ALSO lay claim to the plot so that one resource tile isn't providing a full resource amount to 2 players, which isn't otherwise allowed in any form in civ currently.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

BTW I am assuming that as time goes on the sea critters and boats become "invisible" to each other so that they don't interfere and exploration and war between the nations can happen across the seas. (Part of the Sea Hunter review.)

Maybe my racing mind went off the rails you intended there but it WAS an invitation to think about things and cracked open some previous thoughts in the vault on that subject.

You make a good point. I'd maybe try to address that through buildings with raw vicinity prereq, as you suggested. An improvement that provides a water adjacent resource could be interesting as well, and I guess it could also overlap with a Launch Point or some kind of beach improvement that comes earlier than boats, like maybe at spear fishing.

The need to be able to do something to the plot next to where the unit is is needed in a number of places besides this worker one. In the case of the coastal fish resource I was thinking that it was exactly like the other outside your work area fish improvements at the time they are built. Once you can get the navel tech they become workable, as they would if they were in the third tier. IE it is not a special solution it is just using the same solution as the other two.

I assume there's always fish (and more) in a water plot as long as there's food, just not always a large enough supply to count as the resource. The resource is an unusual abundance and quality of the type you can get there, right?

Strangely enough most water plots on Earth are devoid of life if they are not near some land. Ocean currents make a difference but often it is just like a desert.

I see your point but the same function could still represent that was my point. And usually there were particular seasonal areas that ships went whaling and fishing and crabbing and so on. The concept of the supply line from a resource would be that the unit is enabling bringing in the resource from that plot. If you wanted, we could always try to get some resource types to 'drift' on the map...

Except we don't do seasons for much of the game. In fact a turn is many years. Whales become a tourist attraction and then there is no problems at all with many nations using the same plot.

Ok, I can agree it shouldn't be necessary to have to officially lay culture claim to the plot. BUT if you did, you could make it so that competitors can't ALSO lay claim to the plot so that one resource tile isn't providing a full resource amount to 2 players, which isn't otherwise allowed in any form in civ currently.

Having multiple nations able to claim a plot would be sooooooo useful. On land as well as at sea and in space. That is one thing I have been trying trying to figure out how show on the map.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The need to be able to do something to the plot next to where the unit is is needed in a number of places besides this worker one. In the case of the coastal fish resource I was thinking that it was exactly like the other outside your work area fish improvements at the time they are built. Once you can get the navel tech they become workable, as they would if they were in the third tier. IE it is not a special solution it is just using the same solution as the other two.

Not sure I'm following you, sorry.

BTW I am assuming that as time goes on the sea critters and boats become "invisible" to each other so that they don't interfere and exploration and war between the nations can happen across the seas. (Part of the Sea Hunter review.)

This would just be a matter of setting up and applying 2 new visibility types, one for the ships and one for the animals. Then applying the invisibility to those units as a base and using special combat classes to overcome that where you do want limited interaction.

Except we don't do seasons for much of the game. In fact a turn is many years. Whales become a tourist attraction and then there is no problems at all with many nations using the same plot.

True but a plot still indicates the presence of a known route at an annual point in time somewhere Get's a little less rational when you get month dating rather than years, 10s of years and more.

Having multiple nations able to claim a plot would be sooooooo useful. On land as well as at sea and in space. That is one thing I have been trying trying to figure out how show on the map.

Perhaps one of those most fundamental things to CivIV that really can't be overcome imo. The EXE would seriously fight you on that in a lot of ways, though we could set up a 'sub-claim' system to a plot and have multiple secondary owners but that really won't be able to overcome a lot of movement rule factors and such that are so baked in and complex you'd be cracking open the most hellish can of worms imaginable.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not sure I'm following you, sorry.

Probably because there are a number of issues and I am compressing them. I'll try and be clear about the problems.

Problem 1. You can't build or use coastal ie water plots next to the coast until you have access to the correct navel tech.

The problem here is that if you make a unit that can get into and improve these plots there is no way to restrict it to just the coast and they will improve plots that aren't on the coast.

This may be possible with missions but not without confusing the AI who will probably see a plot needs improvement and build a unit but the unit can't get there so it builds another unit and so on.​

Problem 2. You can't build boats to go out on small lakes.

This can be fixed easily in the XML but we need to make sure that we have a small boat available at all eras for it to work properly for one plot lakes where the city does not have access to the ocean.
​

Problem 3. There is absolutely no way to build boats for lakes inside your border which don't have a city on their shores. This means

1. you get animals, most often birds, stuck on the lake and you can't get rid of them
2. the lake plots can't be improved

 

[Thunderbrd]

Problem 1. You can't build or use coastal ie water plots next to the coast until you have access to the correct navel tech.

The problem here is that if you make a unit that can get into and improve these plots there is no way to restrict it to just the coast and they will improve plots that aren't on the coast.

This may be possible with missions but not without confusing the AI who will probably see a plot needs improvement and build a unit but the unit can't get there so it builds another unit and so on.

Adding a coastal plot type prerequisite for a build action would be trivial.

Your other 2 mentioned problems are something already on my project list to change. Pit brought it up just yesterday I think, that we need to be able to create the ability to send small boats and workboats out into freshwater lakes. It's not a fix that's TOO easy but it shouldn't be too hard either. I'm more put off by the AI work needed than anything else. If we can sort out the peak rules like we did this cycle, we can sort out some enabling of lake working and getting units out there. As for not having a city on the shores, that's where a Dock style improvement that allows certain units to move onto and off of both out of and into the water to convert their type when they do would be helpful. And we'll need it for quite a few projects actually.

There's a lot to work on being itemized here and I'll have to come back and compile a list of them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We can already send boats and work boats out on fresh water lakes. The problem is that we made the size of the lake in the XML that allows it too big. I think it is set somewhere about 5 plots before a city can build small boats and 4 for fishing boats.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We can already send boats and work boats out on fresh water lakes. The problem is that we made the size of the lake in the XML that allows it too big. I think it is set somewhere about 5 plots before a city can build small boats and 4 for fishing boats.

Shouldn't it just be 1 plot that can allow it?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Shouldn't it just be 1 plot that can allow it?

Yes and no. The problem is I can't remember if it causes problems with some buildings or not. I think it is all fixed now and we just never got out of the Ancient era when we set the tests up. Some of the settings are in the Global Defines, I think.

It still wont help any for fresh water lakes with no cities on them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

OK, well then we're back to the improvement that becomes a launch point for a special land unit to become a small boat and vice versa.

Unit morphism is something I want for a LOT of cool projects so this should be fun to work out.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK, well then we're back to the improvement that becomes a launch point for a special land unit to become a small boat and vice versa.

Just like I want to be able to attack birds on the lake with my hunter, just like they do in real life, and have a gatherer build an improvement on a coastal water plot, because we don't have any water units yet. There is also a need for ships, the whaler line, to build an improvement on land in particular in unclaimed territory on a seal or walrus resource.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just like I want to be able to attack birds on the lake with my hunter, just like they do in real life, and have a gatherer build an improvement on a coastal water plot, because we don't have any water units yet. There is also a need for ships, the whaler line, to build an improvement on land in particular in unclaimed territory on a seal or walrus resource.

I was thinking of the unit morphism a bit more earlier and it occurred to me we don't really need anything but a shore for most of those units so the main part of the project would be to figure out how to empower some land units to be able to move onto water and become a specified water unit in the process and vice versa. The improvement part is less critical at that point.

As for hunters attacking birds on the lake, they do have ranged assault usage and birds usually don't have the kind of HP that can resist such shots. If you're looking for hunters to maybe be able to be equipped with a canoe and be able to morph as the above noted morphism, I think in the long run we could do that.

Workers being able to build improvements in adjacent tiles... tricky but not impossible. Is that all we'd really need them to be able to do, considering the full range of capabilities the above morphism concept could cover? Or would we need them to be able to build for even farther out than adjacent (and perhaps being able to identify more than just adjacent - by Domain type as well)?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Workers being able to build improvements in adjacent tiles... tricky but not impossible. Is that all we'd really need them to be able to do, ...

That is what it needs to look like from the user end. It needs to look like the worker on the shore building the improvement coastal water plot. It needs to look like the whaler is landing a crew to claim the plot and set up the seal hunting camp on the shore.

This means we could have the unit create a special unit that does the work but both units need to be stationary until the improvement is built. Probably need a "run away" option if attacked.

In the case of the gatherer building a "fish" improvement.

• the gatherer is consumed in the process at this technology level
  
• the improvement is produced in one turn anyway

This means we could have a mission on the gatherer that is available when it is on the coast next to a sea bonus inside your cultural borders. This mission would place a special unit on the water bonus plot and remove the gatherer. Next turn(?) the bonus plot is improved. Can be done already using missions getting the AI to do it may be more difficult.

In the case of the whaler building a seal/walrus hunting camp a delay is needed in which both units, ship and crew, are stationary. Other than that it is the same as before.

Having thought on it I think I can already do what is needed except for the AI. I will need to come up with a crew to match the whalers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This means we could have a mission on the gatherer that is available when it is on the coast next to a sea bonus inside your cultural borders. This mission would place a special unit on the water bonus plot and remove the gatherer. Next turn(?) the bonus plot is improved. Can be done already using missions getting the AI to do it may be more difficult.

I'm thinking a new way to qualify a build. And a new tag on the build. Maybe... maybe better to do it the way you're thinking. The AI would get weirded out by this.

 

[Raledon]

While not directly related to the talks about handling the sea resources at the early ages, I was wondering- is it possible (should it be possible?) to get buildings onto the sea?
In civ, building cities near the sea tends not be a great idea at the early ages, as you cannot improve the water tiles. Later it becomes acceptable as you get buildings which profit from the seas (trade routes, +food/production to all tiles). In C2C, as the improvements are better, this leaves water tiles still relatively bad.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

While not directly related to the talks about handling the sea resources at the early ages, I was wondering- is it possible (should it be possible?) to get buildings onto the sea?
In civ, building cities near the sea tends not be a great idea at the early ages, as you cannot improve the water tiles. Later it becomes acceptable as you get buildings which profit from the seas (trade routes, +food/production to all tiles). In C2C, as the improvements are better, this leaves water tiles still relatively bad.

You can build sea towns and sea mines but they require transhuman techs.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK I think I can define a mission to build an improvement on a water plot next to the gatherer. The problem is that there is no work cost/rate/timer on missions, they happen that turn. However since work boats do most in one turn this may not be an issue.

New coastal improvement "Tide Pools" upgrades to "Fishing Boats" available on Clam, Crab, Fish, Lobster, Murex and Shrimp. In each case ,except Murex, provides +1.

Those bonuses will now need to be enabled at scavenging.

I need to make 9 mission buttons (perhaps for each bonus) so the mission "knows" which plot is to get the improvement. If there are more than one plot then the button for each will show and you choose.

That leaves the AI.

 

[Thunderbrd]

OK I think I can define a mission to build an improvement on a water plot next to the gatherer. The problem is that there is no work cost/rate/timer on missions, they happen that turn. However since work boats do most in one turn this may not be an issue.

New coastal improvement "Tide Pools" upgrades to "Fishing Boats" available on Clam, Crab, Fish, Lobster, Murex and Shrimp. In each case ,except Murex, provides +1.

Those bonuses will now need to be enabled at scavenging.

I need to make 9 mission buttons (perhaps for each bonus) so the mission "knows" which plot is to get the improvement. If there are more than one plot then the button for each will show and you choose.

That leaves the AI.

I assume you are comfortable with Python AI? Do Tide Pools open up at Spear Fishing? If not, perhaps an improvement to them could be added at that point.