Fix the 5th trash game

[shyuhe]

I didn't post much discussion last round as time was running a little short for me - I had a busy weekend. What a flurry of posts after that though

The players in the last round basically split between attacking Brennus (majority) and Bismarck (Roland and I). There are pros and cons for both, but the biggest merits to attacking Bismarck is that he has more land we can grab (without getting close borders with the other two AI), his strategic resources are limited, and we don't get negative diplo modifiers from the other two AI. Of course it does leave us open to the backstab from the south. On the other hand, attacking Brennus leaves us with a pleased Bismarck to the north (little fear of backstab here) and earns us a -1 diplo with Cyrus, possibly more from close borders as a result of the land tension.

These diplomatic modifiers are definitely something we should keep in mind as this game progresses. Cyrus is not a warmonger by nature and he will generally not attack you if he's at pleased or better (unless you're just begging to get attacked) and he is next to IMPOSSIBLE to bribe into a war from my experience. Brennus is easy to manipulate but he hates us already so that's not really available. Bismarck can be bribed into wars, but Cyrus is too strong for him (and sticking him on Brennus is next to worthless at this point).

As for the tech trading that I did last round - I did not see the point in holding a philosophy monopoly as I was not gunning for liberalism - I was shooting more for a land grab. Since we're going for a space victory, I thought half of the continent would be a good method of reaching that victory than getting an early liberalism.

I normally do liberalism-nationalism-gunpowder and whip/draft an army for war but with so many cottages in our cities, I don't think this is a very viable plan for this game. That basically leaves a combination of farm/mines for production. In that regard, Brennus' land is actually pretty good as there are a fair number of hills mixed in with the grasslands.

So my general suggestions for the upcoming round:
be careful of where you whip as we don't have many farms, be careful of your diplomatic relations, and continue teching towards liberalism.

 

[cabert]

my trial for trash game

Spoiler :

turn 0 :
switched to hinduism
asked bismarck if he could gift me currency (2 turns left, better than fishing ), he agreed.
whipped a granary in madras (for 2 pop)
assigned 2 scientists in delhi. switched production to war elephant.
whipped library in calcutta
changed production to archer in gergovia (due in 1 turn)
turn 1 : sued for peace with brennus for fishing + HBR + 160 gold
turn 2 : archer moving to vienne, to suppress happiness issues.
turn 3 : switch to pacifism
turn 4 : not much
turn 5 : chopped a monastery in vienne
turn 6 : paper in, start education. library started in vienne.
whipped a library in camulodanum.
turn 7 : assigned 2 scientists in madras. chopped a library in vienne. put the slider down to 0% science.
turn 8: not much, but brennus moves troops along our border.
turn 9 : met FdR. I offer him CoL and paper + some spare gold for theology and MC. I also sell paper for some gold+sailing to bismarck.
turn 10 : hindu monastery finished in delhi. Started a hindu missionary (for vienne). another elephant is built. pacifism is costing a lot now .
got compass for theology from bismarck
exchanged world map for FdR's map + gold .
sold this same world map to cyrus for 250 gold
turn 11 : not much
turn 12 : GS born. lightbulbed for most of education. research back to 100%. whip a granary in gergovia.
turn 13 : ask bismarck for gold.
turn 14: hindu missionary finished. Start a spearman in delhi.
turn 15: hinduism in vienne .
turn 16 education in. start liberalism . demand 60 gold from brennus, agreed . Declare war on Brennus. capture a worker, kill a CB man. Whip a market in Vienne (for happiness)
turn 17 : move on.
turn 18 : kill an HA near vienne. move on
turn 19 : bomb bibracte to 0
turn 20 : bibracte is mine . I revolt to theocracy and police state (all hail the pyramids)
turn 21: killed 2 wandering HAs. chopped a forge in delhi. healing. gold for wine with bismark.
turn 22: catapulted brennus' counterattack. risked our great medic ! lost a bunch of catapults, but the stack seems fairly harmless now. got a GG for the price . don't want too many losses, so I stop.
Liberalism seems fairly safe, so I trade away philo for feudalism, machinery and a pile of gold. upgraded 2 axes to maces.
turn 23 : kill brennus's stack, whip a forge in vienne
turn 24 : move troops. Trade education to cyrus for litterature, drama, guilds + map + gold. TRade education for engineering and optics + gold with roosevelt.
tun 25: move troops. trade education for calendar, world map and gold with bismarck
turn 26: move troops next to tolosa
turn 27 : bomb tolosa
turn 28: bomb tolosa, whip a library and a temple in bibracte
turn 29 : attack tolosa (4 catapults lost, 1 elephant lost, loads of LBs lost for him)
turn 30 : healing! liberalism is in. take astro for free. switch to free religion.
turn 31 : tolosa is mine! trade liberalism for gunpowder to cyrus. Trade liberalism for banking to FdR.
turn 32 : brennus capitulates. Now, time for a build up!
turn 33 : sign defensive pact with cyrus. should be safe to go for a build up now. market in delhi, start a grocer.

trades for resources and gold all around the place...

turn 36 : met augustus. annoyed because I traded with his worst enemy, yeah i think you stink too. switch to representation and mercantilism.
ask Cyrus for 180 gold. Agreed. whip a forge in gergovia.
sold liberalism to bismarck for 450 gold.
asked FdR for gold. no, he said
turn 37 : grocer in delhi, start a bank. HE started (marble from cyrus amongst the deals) in calcutta.
turn 38 : met wang kong. Annoyed because I traded with his worst enemy. So? He still trades resources with me. Whip a theater in tolosa.
turn 39: chopped for a uni in madras (not finished yet!).
turn 40, 1400 AD : limit reached, printed press in, start replaceable parts.

The good things :
- first to liberalism
- 9 good cities now
- got a good map of the world
- feel relatively safe from harm, with a vassal and a defensive pact with monster cyrus

The bad things :
- still in the end score wise
- not much trading options (should come, since I traded resources both to Augustus and Wang kong...)
- only 9 cities, and no superior unit to take more from AIs. I'm going for a peaceful finish, although bismarck looks ripe now...

 

[mice]

I'v only played half my turns but I thought I'd just think out loud about the game.

It seems we might be able to out-run Bismark in the space race with these cities, but probably not Cyrus.

That makes Cyrus a target, but on the other hand a successful war with Brenno could net us good cities to beat Cyrus fair and square.

Any thoughts on that?

Option C , a civ from overseas can be cajoled into attacking Cyrus. I wonder if it's worth having no religion when the caravels are expected, to befriend a new civ with a small gift.

BTW thanks Shyuhe for the insights into Bismark and Cyrus' personalities. I feel a bit more in control now with this knowledge.

 

[KMadCandy]

i play up until 1400, and post it here within 24 hours of this message, give or take, is that right? i'll have enough trouble fighting, or getting peace and then fighting hard to not have to fight, so i want to be sure i at least know what the rules are *giggle*.

 

[cabert]

i play up until 1400, and post it here within 24 hours of this message, give or take, is that right? i'll have enough trouble fighting, or getting peace and then fighting hard to not have to fight, so i want to be sure i at least know what the rules are *giggle*.

you can post it now, I'm feeling a bit lonely for this round

 

[Roland Johansen]

I've thought about this for a while, but I would like to announce that I don't want to continue with this succession game. To be fair, it is just not for me. I'm a bit of a control freak and want full control over every aspect of my empire and I should have known before I started that a succession game is nothing for me. You don't play your own game, so you hardly have any control and thus I'm not enjoying myself when playing a succession game. Sorry to dissapoint you guys and girls and especially Cabert who I promised to play this game to its finish when I started. Sorry that I don't keep my promise.

I want to make sure that you know that it has nothing to do with this team. You all seem like nice people and the discussion here was always friendly and it was interesting to see the various play styles and various goals. I hope you will all have lots of fun continuing this game.

 

[cabert]

I've thought about this for a while, but I would like to announce that I don't want to continue with this succession game. To be fair, it is just not for me. I'm a bit of a control freak and want full control over every aspect of my empire and I should have known before I started that a succession game is nothing for me. You don't play your own game, so you hardly have any control and thus I'm not enjoying myself when playing a succession game. Sorry to dissapoint you guys and girls and especially Cabert who I promised to play this game to its finish when I started. Sorry that I don't keep my promise.

I want to make sure that you know that it has nothing to do with this team. You all seem like nice people and the discussion here was always friendly and it was interesting to see the various play styles and various goals. I hope you will all have lots of fun continuing this game.

too bad!
what more can I say?
Thanks for letting us know, and have fun in non-SG games.
I understand your frustration, but in my humble opinion you're missing the best part : the win

Now, Giaur if you're still lurking, there is a spot open for you !
And if you shadow played this round, you can even submit it .

 

[mice]

Thanks Roland for the input you put in. I learned especially about city placement, and I'm still trying to draw lines as straight as you on the map.

Good luck with the SP games.

 

[mice]

Double post on purpose. Here's my report and save.

Spoiler :

From 1000 AD.

Trades, philo to Cyrus for feudalism, philo to Bismark for MC and currency.

Peace with Brennus for HBriding + gold .

Tech order Machinery then Calendar then later engineering.

Converted to Judaism.

Cottage working and other city specialisation now that peace had come. A lot of hybrid-ish cities.

Bismark converts to Judaism, everyone is now Jewish.

Scientist spawned and goes to academy in Delhi.

Some upgrades , CR3axes to maces. Barracks, pikes, Gearing up for next war with Brennus.


1200 - 1400

I swap to OR. at Brennus' request as everyone else is in Org rel. too.

Brennus allows open borders and trades Music and 200 gpt for our Philo.

Cyrus gives 150 gold.

Caste system to force a scientist. Hoping for Liberalism against all odds.

Bizzy circumnavigates, builds the minaret, gives me 150 gold towards the Liberalism fund.

Brennus becomes the vassal of Cyrus! Oh dear. time for plan b. Plan b ?

I have a stack of CR3 maces and am building trebs and pikes. Cyrus has rifles.

Plan B is to wait and see what is over the sea. Hopefully some conflicts can slow the others down.

 

[pigswill]

Roland: Thanks for letting us know. I guess you don't really know if you'll enjoy SGs until you try one. You've tried it and discovered (or at least confirmed your suspicions) that its not for you, fair enough.

If this was a standard SG then it would be much more of a problem but as it is we can continue. Having said that it would be nice if you were able to lurk and make comments and suggestions on the game(s) because I've found your contributions interesting and useful.

 

[Roland Johansen]

too bad!
what more can I say?
Thanks for letting us know, and have fun in non-SG games.
I understand your frustration, but in my humble opinion you're missing the best part : the win

Now, Giaur if you're still lurking, there is a spot open for you !
And if you shadow played this round, you can even submit it .

I have no doubt that you will win. There will be some trouble with Cyrus, but since the last repair game, I do think you will be able to beat him (maybe militarily) in the long run. Good luck. I got a list of most advanced civilizations at a certain point in the game and it seemed that our continent was very advanced, so the main problems should be with the presently known civilizations.

Thanks Roland for the input you put in. I learned especially about city placement, and I'm still trying to draw lines as straight as you on the map.

Good luck with the SP games.

Yes, the drawing tool is a bit rough.

I am playing a multiplayer game (PBEM, a bit slow), but one where 2 players both control their own empire. I think succession games are something quite unique for civ and I can understand that people like playing them. It's just not for me.

The variety in ways how people can enjoy this game is great.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

here's my candidate for the trash game.

Spoiler :

Was beaten to Liberalism. Refused to break relations with Cyrus despite requests from both Roosevelt and Augustus. At present, Cyrus would simply whip our arse. However, he *is* the enemy, IMO. Too bad we missed that horse city.

1010: Discovered currency. Started researching Horseback Riding, just in case.
1030: Converted to Hinduism. Converted to OR later on.
1050: Ceasefire with Brennus against Fishing. Should have done that at once. As it was, lost Cromwell GG unit + many other units before then. Brennus then vassalled to Cyrus.
1100: Contact with Roosevelt. Sistine Chapel built in a distant land. Got Feudalism from Roosevet for CoL.
Began to research Literature.
1120: Literature researched. Began to research Music.
1160: Great Scientist born in Madras. Used him to discover Paper.
Hindu Missionary spread Hinduism in Camulodunum.
1210: Roosevelt demands we break with vile Persians. I said no. In no shape for war. Cyrus has knights and other nasty stuff.
1230. Sold Music to Bismarck for Sailing, World Map, 240 gold.
Sold Paper to Bismarck for Theology.
Sold Music to Roosevelt for Drama, World Map, 110 gold.
Sold Paper to Roosevelt for Metal Casting.
1250: Someone else built Angkor Wat, I got a little money for having started to build A. W. in one of my cities.
1260: Traded Philosophy to Bismarck for Calendar, Compass.
1290; Traded Philosophy to Roosevelt for Machinery.
1330: Accepted Open Borders with Augustus. That will annoy Cyrus and brennus, but Roosevelt likes Augustus and Bismarck doesn't seem to min him.
1360:spread Hindiusm to Vienne.
1390: refused Augustus' request to canel Open borders agreement with Cyrus. Note: Cyrus is running Theocracy now.
1400: Built Heroic Epic in Calcutta. (National Epic is in Delhi.)

Final note: Cyrus is spreading his Judaism in our cities. might be a good idea to cancel Open Borders agreement with him if we are ready to absorb probable attack from him. Bismarck is a very possible ally.

Oops! Forgot to mention that I have some rather good trade agreements. I'm even selling ivory to Roosevelt - he's far away...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61698/Trashy_gandhi_jevind_AD-1400.CivWarlordsSave

 

[mice]

wow, Cabert, looking at your report I see again what a difference a good player can make with forty turns. Such a big gain.

By analyzing these forty moves closer I can really improve. I guess it's the difference between struggling at monarch and controlling the game at Monarch.

I look forward to the other saves. We might all be playing from mine. It's very meek.

 

[FeedBack]

Hey guys!
After a long uneventful week... What a night!

@Roland: I echo pigswill here. It's too bad to see you leaving, as your game skills are pretty good. If you could just lurk and "rate" our games, it would be a great contribution! Thank you so far!

@KMad: Glad to see you're back!

@all: I'll have a tough time trying to finish tonight. I got about 15 turns played so far and I'm up in my other SG. I'll try to play both, if my wife doesn't send me to the couch. If I can't, could we call a late submissions round again, until Saturday evening? Please?

 

[cabert]

Hey guys!
After a long uneventful week... What a night!

@Roland: I echo pigswill here. It's too bad to see you leaving, as your game skills are pretty good. If you could just lurk and "rate" our games, it would be a great contribution! Thank you so far!

@KMad: Glad to see you're back!

@all: I'll have a tough time trying to finish tonight. I got about 15 turns played so far and I'm up in my other SG. I'll try to play both, if my wife doesn't send me to the couch. If I can't, could we call a late submissions round again, until Saturday evening? Please?

saturday evening, australian time is ok for me. brazilian time that put me on sunday morning and cam on sunday afternoon = no way to look at the games .

we're currently at 3 saves available and kmad seems to have finished playing too.
If there are less that 5 saves in tomorrow morning, I'll give a delay to saturday noon (east coast time), ok?

 

[shyuhe]

I may be able to finish my round by then... I'm hoping to have some time later today to finish. Let's just say... I got some things happening beyond my control and I'll probably have the weakest save overall...

 

[cabert]

I may be able to finish my round by then... I'm hoping to have some time later today to finish. Let's just say... I got some things happening beyond my control and I'll probably have the weakest save overall...

really?
I doubt it

 

[FeedBack]

really?
I doubt it

Me too!

I'll do my best to finish tonight. Sorry. That's why I bought a comfortable couch!

 

[Giaur]

Hello everyone. I am in. I'll try deliver a save tonight. :]

 

[Roland Johansen]

Roland: Thanks for letting us know. I guess you don't really know if you'll enjoy SGs until you try one. You've tried it and discovered (or at least confirmed your suspicions) that its not for you, fair enough.

If this was a standard SG then it would be much more of a problem but as it is we can continue. Having said that it would be nice if you were able to lurk and make comments and suggestions on the game(s) because I've found your contributions interesting and useful.

@Roland: I echo pigswill here. It's too bad to see you leaving, as your game skills are pretty good. If you could just lurk and "rate" our games, it would be a great contribution! Thank you so far!

Thanks Pigswill and fbelintani. If I have some time, then I'll add some comments. I've always liked analysing and commenting games and looking at the differences. It's interesting to see the different approaches of the various players. Maybe I'll add some statistics again like Shyuhe and I did some time ago. Of course statistics only tell a small part of the story, so I'll try to add some useful ones. However, I won't have time for that this weekend, so I guess it won't be of any use for the voting or something like that.

I think that I'll stick around here a bit to see how this game ends. I have no doubt that you guys and girl will win.

Hello everyone. I am in. I'll try deliver a save tonight. :]

I feel a little less bad, now that I know that someone will take my place. Thank your Giaur. Show them your talents as a civplayer.