Fix the 5th trash game

[cabert]

I think Shyuhe and I just mentioned the statistics and didn't comment on them very much. So we were pretty neutral about them. Of course, we chose which statistics we mentioned, but we stopped noone to show other statistics.

agreed, and this is why I mentionned my opinion (although late but the tech researched were also given out, thanks shyhue).

The bpt wasn't for 100% research. It was the bpt at a break even point for gold. It perfectly shows your research speed at the moment of the game save.

no
I can't remember a game where I researched at break even point .
Selling techs (at high levels, you get loads of money this way), huts, pillaging, capturing cities, extorting, missing wonders, trade missions, hiring merchants, building wealth, ... are all good ways to get money to fund "deficit" research.
I'm for all out research. Not at 100% mostly, but at a sustainable rate (= money in the bank covers the research for the current tech). After that you just sell the tech and start another. Selling an old tech is better of course.

However, it doesn't show that you just took a citizen of the gold mine to grow the city one size larger or that you just switched some mined hills for scientists. So it is not perfect, it is a statistic.

yep, that's why I said that tech already researched are a better indicator.
It's not perfect either, because it overvalues tech trade and lightbulbing (= what you get now over what you can expect later).

For example, in my save I had used a GS to build an academy in the capital. This gave a lot of beakers while I was running specialist + those I expected from the Great Library. In fact I expected 10 beakers/turn very soon from this academy. More later when I cottage up the land. Those could not be visible from the bpt statistics because I had assigned workers to mine (=fired the scientists) and the GL wasn't yet done.
I could have lightbulbed or settled the scientist for something more visible but IMHO, in a space race, well placed academies are superior to low value lightbulbs (philo isn't low value !).

It also doesn't show the potential increase in science production in the future. I think that the number of cities and cottages show how well your economy will develop in the near future. And maybe the number of workers if you haven't build enough tile improvements yet.

yep.
I'm one of those building too few workers. Always. But then again, the workers have also an upkeep cost . (I know, the argument leads nowhere, but I have no better excuse)

At the point of the save, I had 7 cities and thus a considerable upkeep cost of 40 limiting my science output. That's why I'm warning some of you that fast conquest expansion will need a good economy back at home. It's a known fact about civ4 so maybe I shouldn't mention it. However, without more cities, we won't keep up in the science race in the long run. We'll have to deal with the upkeep cost at some point and it's better to expand sooner rather than later (as long as you don't go bankrupt).

yep, you dealt with the upkeep with cottages on the jungle tiles, I dealt with it with alphabet and aiming at CoL.
7 cities at this stage may seem a bit too many, but IMHO in a space race, you can't have too many cities. Who knows where the coal, the aluminium, the oil will show up?

(referring to Pigswill)Thank you. Now I know your approach which can be useful. We all play a bit differently which is nice to see.

I think we have a good challenge in this game, this should make it a fun game, don't you think?

 

[Roland Johansen]

no
I can't remember a game where I researched at break even point .
Selling techs (at high levels, you get loads of money this way), huts, pillaging, capturing cities, extorting, missing wonders, trade missions, hiring merchants, building wealth, ... are all good ways to get money to fund "deficit" research.
I'm for all out research. Not at 100% mostly, but at a sustainable rate (= money in the bank covers the research for the current tech). After that you just sell the tech and start another. Selling an old tech is better of course.

You are right that researching from your own economy is only a starting point. You can get research out of other things. However, if everything else were equal, then you would prefer the civilization with the higher bpt. It is quite important to get a reasonable research rate. Of course, not everything else is equal. I mentioned hammer per turn and number of specialists to show some of the differences.

If you get money from selling technologies then you can research faster. Of course, it does have the downside of helping your enemies along. I also will regularly sell technologies, but only if the price offered is reasonable.
You could make your game look better by selling everything you have for gold just to research that one extra technology. It's unlikely that the players checking your game are going to notice the research level of your opponents.

In every 40 turn period, I've gone for more long term goals. For instance, all the cottages that I've constructed in this time period won't show their power yet. It isn't clear by only looking at the bpt. I'm just constructing a great prophet for the shrine now. He'll be ready in 10 turns, but I don't think everyone took that into account when judging my game. 2 small cities of mine have just gotten granaries and could grow quickly and get river bound cottages, but that is also not clear by just casually observing the map.

So, however you look at it, there will always be things that are invisible to a casual judging of a game. I don't think that can be helped. The statistics will help a bit in my opinion.

yep, that's why I said that tech already researched are a better indicator.
It's not perfect either, because it overvalues tech trade and lightbulbing (= what you get now over what you can expect later).

I think that if you researched a lot more than what your research rate would suggest, then you probably played well with trading technologies. But it doesn't really show how we're going to perform in the next time period by picking this game. It might offer some technology trading of course.

For example, in my save I had used a GS to build an academy in the capital. This gave a lot of beakers while I was running specialist + those I expected from the Great Library. In fact I expected 10 beakers/turn very soon from this academy. More later when I cottage up the land. Those could not be visible from the bpt statistics because I had assigned workers to mine (=fired the scientists) and the GL wasn't yet done.
I could have lightbulbed or settled the scientist for something more visible but IMHO, in a space race, well placed academies are superior to low value lightbulbs (philo isn't low value !).

I agree, I noticed your super science city attempt. It is a strategy that also takes more than 40 turns to complete.

yep.
I'm one of those building too few workers. Always. But then again, the workers have also an upkeep cost . (I know, the argument leads nowhere, but I have no better excuse)

yep, you dealt with the upkeep with cottages on the jungle tiles, I dealt with it with alphabet and aiming at CoL.
7 cities at this stage may seem a bit too many, but IMHO in a space race, you can't have too many cities. Who knows where the coal, the aluminium, the oil will show up?

I was planning to get more and more cities. I saw spots for 4 or 5 more cities (can't check the save from here). I maintained a decent research rate while expanding and the cottages would still be developing while expanding further. I don't see a reason for me to stop expanding. The silver spot looked attractive to get a higher happy cap and thus more cottages and specialists.

I think we have a good challenge in this game, this should make it a fun game, don't you think?

It's not the typical situation for me. I usual try to expand steadily and get a good chunk of land before I start warring. So it's a bit unusual for me. I don't know if I'll have the time to test this game, which is a pity. It would be interesting to try it.

 

[FeedBack]

Hey guys!

I'm good for a late closing date. I may try to play this until Friday but, as cabert stated, this will require a more careful approach to not screw up.

Talking a little about the past...
Regarding the cottage on the floodplain: I tried to maximize the commerce output there, as it would be my commerce-heavy city with double gold. I would have room to grow there later, even if that meant stay at size 4 for now. Isn't it a good approach?
And I liked to see I wasn't the only one to found that wacky horses site. But after some jungle cleaning, it would be a good site.

Talking about the future:
As shyuhe said, I think Bismarck is the target. I don't know if he has the iron connected at Munich or Bombay now, but in my save he had none.
It will be a tough job to raise an army with 3 cities. Can we launch with 3 cities only?
Good luck everyone!

 

[cabert]

And I liked to see I wasn't the only one to found that wacky horses site. But after some jungle cleaning, it would be a good site.

I had no choice, cyrus blocked the city site I was going for.

It will be a tough job to raise an army with 3 cities. Can we launch with 3 cities only?

there are people launching playing OCC. It's definitely possible.

 

[pigswill]

Building an army with three cities is easy, you just can't build anything else while you're doing it .

 

[shyuhe]

@cabert

Those statistics were just some general numbers. I realize that bpt at break even isn't a fair measure but that combined with techs researched gave a pretty decent picture of how good the research base was. I didn't want to count hammers so I just listed the number of cities as a marginal measure of long-term potential. The army list is, well the offensive army list I never send archers to the front line (maybe 1 or 2 for newly conquered cities) so I didn't count them.

Yes, my measure ignores things like temporary firings of scientists and GL coming up etc., but if we're looking for the trash game, would that matter? Then again, I may have just been too lazy to try to maximize science in each save to figure out how much each save could produce...

It's been a while since I've had to war starting with only 3 cities, but it's definitely doable (as we do have a small stack of axes). Just keep in mind that you'll need multiple wars to get to the point you want. My general rule of thumb for space launches is 6-8 cities. You want at least 6 for Oxford, and any more than that is just icing on the cake for me

 

[cabert]

@cabert

Those statistics were just some general numbers. I realize that bpt at break even isn't a fair measure but that combined with techs researched gave a pretty decent picture of how good the research base was. I didn't want to count hammers so I just listed the number of cities as a marginal measure of long-term potential. The army list is, well the offensive army list I never send archers to the front line (maybe 1 or 2 for newly conquered cities) so I didn't count them.

Yes, my measure ignores things like temporary firings of scientists and GL coming up etc., but if we're looking for the trash game, would that matter? Then again, I may have just been too lazy to try to maximize science in each save to figure out how much each save could produce...

no problem and it's very nice of you (and roland) to have allowed some of us, including me, to be able to assess the games faster.

I was just a bit choked of seeing how low on beakers I was .

It's been a while since I've had to war starting with only 3 cities, but it's definitely doable (as we do have a small stack of axes). Just keep in mind that you'll need multiple wars to get to the point you want. My general rule of thumb for space launches is 6-8 cities. You want at least 6 for Oxford, and any more than that is just icing on the cake for me

really?
I think we need as much land as possible, to have good odds on having
- coal
- aluminium.

That + preventing the AIs to run away with the game...

 

[shyuhe]

I have no idea how well developed Cyrus and Brennus are in this save - I should have sent a scout south to go explore those lands I imagine we can grab most of the northern part of this continent if things go well. Or maybe somebody could be so bold as to remove Brennus from the game as well You can trade for coal fairly easily - aluminum may be a little harder to obtain. I don't recall the distribution patterns of aluminum either...

 

[shyuhe]

played up to 1000 AD. Things look pretty good, barring a backstab.

Spoiler :

Traded for fishing to start the round. I then went after Bismarck and declared war in 275, grabbing Frankfurt. I traded alphabet and metal casting from Cyrus for Philosophy, then bought monotheism from Cyrus while finishing researching construction. Bombay fell in 500 AD, and Munich in 740 AD. IN 800 AD, Bismarck got longbows so I took peace to heal troops and wait for the elephants to reach the frontline. I also got sailing as part of the peace deal. I ignored WFYABTA as I am counting on good trade deals with the other continent at this point

Bismarck was only cautious with me so I traded calender from him. I finished researching machinery, and traded for feudalism from Brennus. This triggered WFYABTA with him. I also picked up currency from Bismarck (haven't given him a military tech that he can use though). War can be declared again at the start of the next set - Berlin shouldn't be too hard to take, althoguh a cautious player may wish to wait for CS and upgrade the CR axes into CR maces (which takes lots of gold!).

I had to manipulate the relations with Brennus - he is currently cautious and I think he can be bribed into attacked Bismarck for philosophy (might as well put the techs to some use since he won't trade with us anyways). I adopted OR but no state religion to get the favorite civic bonus with Brennus. The trading with our worst enemy has dissipated a little bit to -2, and it should gradually go away over time. As long as he's busy attacking Bismarck, I'm not too worried about Brennus (and hopefully Judaism will spread to us eventually so that we can be pleased with him).

So, production base is now up to 7 cities (I refounded the gold mine city as well) and research is going ok - although Cyrus is in danger of running away with techs right now. I need to go scout out his lands to see what he's doing down there... The land to the north should be ours for the taking though, and there is a TON of land up to the north that hasn't been settled yet.

 

[pigswill]

Spoiler :

Gandhi in the Real World was a man of peace who understood that violence begets violence. Gandhi in Civ World does not have this level of discernment.

150ad Hanging Gardens bidl
275 Christianity founded in Gergovia (Celtia)
325 Great Library bidl
350. Discover construction. Start CS.
Trade construction to Cyrus for alphabet.
Trade meditation to Bismark for monotheism.
Pop a prophet in Delhi. Eventually settle him in Delhi, one shrine is plenty. Not bothered about theology, by the time he can lightbulb CS we'll have it anyway.

375. War against Brennus. Start by stealing two workers.
Cities are in military production, mainly cats.
450 Chichen Izza bidl
540 Capture Verlamion
700 Hagia Sophia bidl. Notre Dame bidl.
720 Capture Vienne.
820 Capture Gergovia.
860 Capture/raze Dumnovria (on persian borders and overlapping Vienne).
920 Discover CS, start currency (100%, hefty deficit).
980 Capture Camulodonum.

1000. End of set. Two turns from currency; still have monopoly on philosophy.
War Weariness becoming significant. Now up to seven cities.
Got a decent stack of doom (4 CR2/3 axes, 10 cats, Elephant Healer Warlord).

Losses: 1 archer, 2 axes, 2 spears, 1 sword, 5 cats, 1elephant. Total 12.
Kills: 2 archers, 3 axes, 3 spears, 3 gallic, 4 longbows, 3 elephants, 8 HA. Total 26.
Longbows ain't a reason to stop invading.

Save:http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90414/Trashy_pigswill_1000ad.CivWarlordsSave

 

[FeedBack]

Oh well, here's my save:

Spoiler :

I don't know how other people did it, yet, but I declared on Brennus at 325 AD to steal a few workers. Took two cities (one coastal and the Dye one) pretty much easily, when teching to Construction. I got it and before I could bring a Catapult and an Elephant to Vienne, Everybody had Construction.
This time I panicked and brought Bismarck into the war by giving him Philosophy and taking fishing for a change. I traded it on the same turn to Cyrus for Alphabet and Metal Casting. Bismarck gave me Sailing for free.
I could take Vienne, the Christian Holy City after a painful battle. Right after that I signed a cease fire with Brennus, as he wouldn't give me a tech, except my nearly Finished Civil Service.
I got a GS sleeping at Madras. The next GP will be from Delhi in about 15 turns. I'd burn him on Education, after I research paper AFTER machinery. I think we need maces and X-Bows soon.

 

[mice]

Oh well ... here's mine too

Spoiler :

War is hell.

Looking at Ori's leader spreadsheet I see that Brennus is much more likely to backstab, and Bismark's preference for tech and builds is military. From this I guess that Bismark will have a good number of units ,and Brennus is likely to stab me if I go for Bismark. So I decide to go for Brennus. I hate Brennus.

Unfortunately Brennus did not want to lie down and sent at first a flow of HA, and then Elephants, and finally stacks for taking cities including catapults.

From 125 AD

Stole 2 celtic workers, that's the good news. Went on to take Verlamion. Pillged his iron.

Trades, Bismark, Philo for Fishing /Alpha/ HBR
Cyrus, Philo for MC and 100 gold.

They are both pleased. Teched Construction then Currency
Drama next for trading, and it nets Literature/sailing - Cyrus and 400 gold - Bismark.

Then it was a cat and mouse game in the jungle with spears against HA. My spearman were 70% against Brennus' combat I HA. I lost a couple of spears to them. Jungle hilltops didn't give the defense I hoped for and I ended up falling back to reinforce.

Then came the elephants, and I was building elephants. elephant battles in the jungle, Vermalion lost and razed, Calcutta lost and then recaptured.

At 1000 AD, a big stack that will probably take Calcutta is sitting on the hill just by it.

My stack which could take the Central Celtic city that I can see, might take it but will be hard pushed to defend it.

Did I mention that I hate Brennus?War is hell.

Now that I looked at ,fbelintani, your spoiler
I see you played much much smarter than me. And Pigswil ! what did I do wrong ? Maybe hitting the smaller city was the mistake. If I'd hit Vienne the counter attack might have gone there insteadof Calcutta

 

[cabert]

Hey guys.
Can't read the spoilers, since I didn't play yet.
But I'm having troubles with my computer and only little free time.
If some good fixing is done already, I'll just pass this round.
If 1 more save can be useful, I'll play on saturday (not saying it WILL be better than others, but it's one more try = 1 more chance).

 

[FeedBack]

@Mice: Your save game name is funny!

Spoiler Mice's spoiler answer :

Man, I can't say I was smarter. I can say I was luckier (is that a word?). This Monarch level AI is too much for my experience. My game and Pigswill's have similar results. But I do think his was better. I think I didn't wait long enough (although I declared on the same turn pigswill did) to declare as I didn't have enough forces to roll on the next cities. Brennus having jumbos was not a good surprise either.
Other thing I cannot do well is teching in this high levels. In my last two sets I sacrificed beakers for hammers. Last set I struggled to get IW on time. This one I struggled to get CS on time. Is that normal?

 

[mice]

@ Fbelintani

Spoiler :

Other thing I cannot do well is teching in this high levels. In my last two sets I sacrificed beakers for hammers. Last set I struggled to get IW on time. This one I struggled to get CS on time. Is that normal?

I don't know what is normal on Monarch. I'm starting to think I must be stupid because I just cant beat this level. It's really annoying me. So much so that I (almost) decided to give up. I like the threads like this where you can learn, but single player, it's just no fun. Prince is too easy for me now though.
I was surprised that you and Pigswill didnt meet so many HA's and elephants. I met waves of them. I should check the declare dates.

 

[pigswill]

mice

Spoiler :

don't go getting discouraged. Each level is meant to be tougher. I'm almost at the point of thinking about going up to emperor when I'll have the same experience as you're having on monarch.
I'm not sure why you had more problems with phants and HAs; it looks like you declared early but weren't quite ready for full invasion which may have given Brennus more time to build units.

 

[cabert]

Spoiler :

turn 0 :
asked cyrus for fishing, agreed
changed tech to construction, at 100% (9 turns away)
MM madras for growth and hammers.
Whipped barracks in Calcutta.
wow now construction is 12 turns away

turn 1:
axeman finished in delhi, time for a spearman
axeman begins in calcutta
asked bismarck for sailing, agreed

turn 2:
sold meditation to cyrus for 190 gold

some preparation turns (including moving an axe and an archer towards iron mine)

300 AD : war on Brennus (1 worker captured)
325 AD : gergovie is mine (no loss = 2 lucky rolls). celt ironmine pillaged. Don't know where the horses are (if there are). chopped an axeman in delhi.

375 AD: construction is in. CS started. trade construction for alphabet with bismarck. cyrus already has it.open field war (spear kills HA, axe kills archer, more luck than I'm used to)

425 AD: spear becomes medic. I whip my first catapult for 2 pop points in madras. MM delhi to get another one whithout whip (but large starvation)

450AD: great prophet is born in delhi . switch tech back to monotheism, to lightbulb theology (christianity is already founded but I want paper!). from rage, I whip an hinduist monastery in delhi. Let's be religious!

520AD : monotheism is in. switch temporarily to CS. Lightbulb theology. switch research to paper.razed durnorovia.
IBT lost a catapult and an axe to HAs.

540AD : HA killed by a spear (revenge!). remaining catapult is protected by archer and axe. gergovia is taoist and finishes monument. time for barracks.
Metal Casting and some change for theology from cyrus. I really should find the horses, brennus is building HAs like crazy.

560AD : theology for HBR+560 gold from bismarck. certainly not a good move. should have waited more turns for currency.

600AD : axeman kills wandering archer, but he is badly wounded, I take delhi's sole defender out to protect him. Not very smart...

620 AD more dangerous moves : 2 workers build a road allowing the axe to go back to delhi, leaving the archer alone to defend the 2 workers...it's 50/50 when brennus' archer attacks (my archer wins ). 2 more catapults join vs vienne. an elephant kills a lone HA.

660AD: vienne is finally at 0%. I settled a GG in delhi.

680AD: attack on vienne. lost 2 catapults, one retreated. killed a good deal of defenders, including both elephants.

700 AD : whip a forge in delhi. We don't have gold or gems yet, but I hope we'll find some. asked bismarck for 3gpt. agreed . (a while before I asked cyrus for money, he refused)

740 AD : vienne is mine, at the cost of one more catapult. Sue for peace and earn calendar + some change. We now have 5 cities, a shrine, and a good foot on celtic land. 8 turns before vienne comes out of revolt is just right... more wars to come IMHO. cyrus won't be happy, but he's
next probably.

... cyrus doesn't want to give me his map for free. He wants 140 gold for it. hum no, thanks

900 AD : courthouse whipped in vienne

940 AD : bananas for fish with cyrus

1000AD I switch to drama, in the hope that our soon to come scientist (hope hope) will lightbulb the rest of education (shouldn't have started it at all, but now it's done). sent an archer to explore persian lands.

here is my save, let's read spoilers

 

[Roland Johansen]

I can't seem to find the time to play this turn set. Don't wait for me. Sorry.

 

[cabert]

I can't seem to find the time to play this turn set. Don't wait for me. Sorry.

not even on saturday?

 

[Cam_H]

Oh well, here's mine ...

Spoiler :

Peaceful settlement to the north? Attack Frederick? Attack Brennus? Regardless – Cyrus looks as though he’s becoming a run-away.

Pre-Turn

With room for Delhi to grow, I emphasised food. Spearman for Madras, and Calcutta’s Barracks got whipped. I changed the technology choice to Construction.

125AD-400AD

I decided to sell Meditation to the tech-hungry Cyrus. Usually this is about the last thing I’d do, but getting Construction before the AI gets Feudalism may pave an easier warpath for us. With the extra cash, science goes up to 100%. Hanging Gardens are built in a foreign land. After a couple of Axes, Delhi swaps to a Settler for the north west coastal spot, who is whipped out in 325AD. An Archer spots Barbarian borders in the north and calls up the SoD of Axes.

400AD-700AD

Lahore is founded on the north west coast above Madras, but needs a border pop to access the seafood resource, so I opt for a Library. Construction comes in at 425AD, and I opt for Civil Service, which coincidently enough is the same year that Persia goes into Bureaucracy. Apache (Iron/Wheat/Coastal) is taken although with the loss of two ‘unfortunate’ Axes. I realise after an awful long time that we have a Taoist Missionary sleeping in Calcutta, and so he shoots over and spreads the faith in Delhi. We pop a Great Scientist – none other than Isaac ‘head butt an apple’ Newton! He sleeps. Chichen Itza is built elsewhere. I make a lopsided deal with Bismark, but I’m trailing badly in technology, and need cash to keep us in the game; exchange Construction for Monotheism + Fishing + 310gold. Curiously Bismark goes into Vassalage. We also miss The Great Library.

700AD-1000AD

Our little cities have been churning out units in order to create a semi-respectable stack, and have congregated north of Verlamion. 760AD – no more Mr. Nice Guy! Attack! Verlamion was covered by a CG2 Archer and a Spear with 20% cultural pressure, which was enough for one of our Axes to ‘pass on from this life’, but the city is secured in 780AD. Civil Service finally arrives and we switch into Bureaucracy, start chain irrigating, and burn our Great Scientist on Paper.

Technology choice - Alphabet. Our lack of ‘geographical intelligence’ – especially of Celtic lands – is of concern, so I swap maps with Cyrus, although begrudgingly throw in 110gold to make the deal happen. Brennus keeps bringing out Horse Archers and Catapults, that while are being beaten more often than winning, begin to severely wear down the health of our invasion force. In 860AD we spot Longbows defending Celtic cities. To the far north our Archer in Apache survives a Barbarian Axeman. Cyrus founds Islam in 940AD, as Alphabet comes in for India. Next up – Education. Our small and shrinking invasion force outside Vienne is beginning to struggle against Brennus’s onslaught. By 960AD we’ve had enough, and sue for peace, extracting the Princely sum of 50gold from the Celtic coffers.

Six cities in the end – one ex-Celtic, one ex-Barbarian, and a Settler founded one. The conflict with Brennus ended disappointingly, with just one city to show for our effort. Frederick has continued to push into the northern areas, and has grabbed a good river site.