Fix the 5th trash game

shyuhe · Apr 10, 2007

I actually can't complain about this after my current save. I uh... built a city that was health capped at 1... The silly things you do sometimes... I generally try to shoot for at least a health capped size of 4 so that you can whip 2 pop. But sometimes, the strategic reasons can outweigh the short-term penalties that a low health cap entails. I think the thing to remember is that if you do build a city that's jungle-health limited, you want to get workers + IW soon, so that the city will become a bit more useful (again, not necessarily advice that I followed myself).

FeedBack · Apr 11, 2007

Well, here's my shot. I'm actually happy that I did not see some kind of conquest defeat by barbs.

Spoiler :

pigswill · Apr 12, 2007

Spoiler :

The Save:http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90414/Trashy_gandhi_pigswill_125ad.CivWarlordsSave

cabert · Apr 12, 2007

Spoiler :

Cam_H · Apr 13, 2007

Spoiler :

mice · Apr 13, 2007

Internet was down where I live for 2 whole days. Ouch .

By the way, for those who dont know, you can change the in game name by
using alt D .

It helps for scanning all the games if you go into a save but then instantly forget whose save it was. I do that all the time.

Spoiler :

cabert · Apr 13, 2007

the game already in :
mice played
cabert played
cam_h played
pigswill played
fbelintani played
Ojevind played (immune)
shyhue played

the games missing
kmad
roland

a few hours (make it more than half a day

) left before official end of round.
If I get eaten by aliens before the round is over, or more likely if my wife prevents me from accessing my computer, I put the next step here :
voting for worst game due on sunday, returning officer is Ojevind Lang.
No voting for your own game, no voting for Ojevind's game and no flaming.

Ojevind, thank you for collecting the votes, and you have the "final vote" in case of a tie.

Roland Johansen · Apr 13, 2007

I'm just in time, aren't I....

By the way, I'm in favour of picking a best game instead of a worst. I think we are in a bad situation. However, I haven't looked at the other games. Pick a bad game for the next save. We could easily lose if someone had some really bad luck with barbarians. I think this might be the most crucial time period yet. I'll take a look at the savegames now.

Spoiler :

Trashy gandhi-Roland Johansen- AD-0125.CivWarlordsSave
Turnlog Trashgame-Roland Johansen-875BC-125AD.txt

FeedBack · Apr 13, 2007

Roland Johansen said:
By the way, I'm in favour of picking a best game instead of a worst. I think we are in a bad situation. However, I haven't looked at the other games.

Roland, I think your idea is good. I know it's not in the original format, but we are against a Monarch AI (which I never won against) and a little backwards. Some people had, let's say, trouble this turnset.
What do the others think about it?

shyuhe · Apr 13, 2007

I don't think we're necessarily doomed yet. We're on monarch so it's not surprising to be behind a little at this point of the game. Our northern neighbor is lacking in some resources (sorry for the slightly spoilerish info) so worst come to worst, we can always go war during the next "best" game set to fix things. I haven't looked at all of the saves either, but it sounds (from the descriptions) like none of the saves are dead in the water yet.

pigswill · Apr 13, 2007

Had a quick look at most saves; quite a lot of variation (except for the popularity of Glib beeline); some stronger than others but I'd not be keen on switching to best save just yet.

Roland Johansen · Apr 13, 2007

shyuhe said:
I don't think we're necessarily doomed yet. We're on monarch so it's not surprising to be behind a little at this point of the game. Our northern neighbor is lacking in some resources (sorry for the slightly spoilerish info) so worst come to worst, we can always go war during the next "best" game set to fix things. I haven't looked at all of the saves either, but it sounds (from the descriptions) like none of the saves are dead in the water yet.

I'm not saying that some savegames are a lost cause, if I had to play from that moment on. But half of the time, you get the least succesfull game with the worst luck of 8 people and that will hurt.

If you pick 8 emperor level players and let them play a monarch level game where they have to continue with the worst save continuously, then I think they will generally lose. The worst luck combined with the least succesful decisions from 8 good players will lead to a bad game.

This game is supposed to be a training for a space ship victory, but if we pick the worst game now, then I think we'll have to make it into a war game. You can win the space ship victory by conquering a lot, but it is a bit against the idea of this succession game (IMHO).

I'm just suggesting to change it from:

trash-best-trash-best-trash-best

to

trash-best-best-trash-best-trash.

Nothing really radical here.

Oh, by the way, this is only an opinion and I actually don't expect the players or leader (Cabert) to agree with me. We started with a certain setting and I can imagine that people don't want to change that just because I suggest it.

pigswill · Apr 13, 2007

Roland: it's good to have a different viewpoint expressed. It gets us out of a rut and encourages us to think. I would certainly prefer to win than lose due to rigid adherence to a set of rules. I'm not sure we're in that deep a hole yet on any save but its certainly an option we could consider if we're getting trounced.

Cam_H · Apr 13, 2007

I can certainly see where Roland's coming from and do have some empathy with the position, but 'call me conservative' but I think that we should press on with the existing format.

Roland's point about converting the game from a Space Race to a military campaign is a valid one. As we advance in level however we must expect greater resistance and not drop our guard on the military side of things, and as such I think that this in itself is a good 'educational experience'.

Like some other 'series' games, we always seem to win anyway, so I wouldn't be devastated if we really did have to dig ourselves out of a serious mid- or late-game hole - even if the last round boils down to three wins and five losses, I think that we can learn a tremendous amount from the few successful games.

With all that said, I think after this round that we should be more liberal about discussing 'grand strategies' and 'nifty tactics' in order to draw some better focus to the submissions. I think everyone's been a bit surprised how diverse the submissions have been to date with relatively few options available. With more building options, unit options, cottage vs. specialist issues, civic choices, and more distinct technology paths opening up, the submissions may become so diverse that comparison will become very difficult without a few agreed parameters or guiding principles.

My 'bottom line' position is that we stick with our existing format, but we keep Roland's suggestion 'up our sleeve' in case we are compelled to choose a trash game which is universally agreed as 'beyond hope'. I'd re-put the suggestion that from this next round onwards we can be a bit more open about our strategies and options.

shyuhe · Apr 13, 2007

Well this is definitely an interesting set. There are a few MM issues that I noticed in some saves but they're pretty small for the most part. I think my choice is just going to be personal preference (what kind of position I don't like to play) but here are some stats if they help (bpt numbers are roughly at break-even, and I may have missed some techs):

jevind: 22bpt, 5 axes + 3 spears, 5 cities, monotheism + writing

fbelintani: 18bpt, 6 axes, 6 cities, IW + fishing + writing

pigswill: 42bpt, 4 axes + spear, 3 cities, IW + writing + math + monarchy + COL + philosophy (WOW)

cabert: 24bpt, 6 axes + 2 spears, 5 cities, writing + alphabet + meditation + priesthood + literature, war with Brennus

Cam: 36bpt, 5 axes + spear + chariot, 5 cities, writing + IW + alphabet

mice: 31bpt, 3 axes, 4 cities, fishing + writing + alphabet + IW + math

Roland: 40bpt, 2 axes + 2 chariots, 7 cities (WOW), fishing + sailing + monotheism + priesthood + IW + writing

shyuhe: 59bpt, axe + chariot, 5 cities, fishing + IW + HBR + writing + alphabet + math

pigswill · Apr 14, 2007

I suspect that my game has been the least conventional this round. Losing the city to barbs is partly down to bad luck (i.e. which way the barb axe moved). Giving a city away is not so common.

My aim for this round was consolidation and making using of philosophical so I got a prophet for the shrine and a philosophy slingshot at the cost of expansion. Techwise I've done ok. My game is 10 turns from construction for cats (and elephants if you like that kind of thing). I think that our best target is Brennus because if we're aiming for space then lots of cleared jungle to convert to cottages and/or workshops makes for powerful late game cities. I'm trying to goad Brennus into declaring so we don't get diplo penalties from Cyrus who I don't want to annoy atm. Cats/axes/elephants is enough to capture a bunch of cities; CoL means (whipped) courthouses so we can afford to keep them.

I think that some kind of war is inevitable unless you have an isolated start. On monarch at least its unlikely you will be able to expand fast enough to acquire 8-10 good city sites which seems aboutthe right number for space. If you're going for war then better to identify one victim and go for it and get it done (though vassalisation does complicate things).

On the other hand if you want to vote me as trash game that's ok too.

cabert · Apr 14, 2007

pigswill said:
On the other hand if you want to vote me as trash game that's ok too.

wouldn't that somehow follow Roland's idea ?

I see why Roland is a bit tense about going with the trash game every other turnset, but look at trash game 2. Our position wasn't better, and we sticked with trasj (monarch level too) and got there. It sure was a bit scary, but nothing we can't overcome.
The scary part is good for those who feel a little too comfortable on monarch level. This will make the issue a bit unsure, and this is good for the fun.

Roland Johansen · Apr 14, 2007

shyuhe said:
Well this is definitely an interesting set. There are a few MM issues that I noticed in some saves but they're pretty small for the most part. I think my choice is just going to be personal preference (what kind of position I don't like to play) but here are some stats if they help (bpt numbers are roughly at break-even, and I may have missed some techs):

jevind: 22bpt, 5 axes + 3 spears, 5 cities, monotheism + writing

fbelintani: 18bpt, 6 axes, 6 cities, IW + fishing + writing

pigswill: 42bpt, 4 axes + spear, 3 cities, IW + writing + math + monarchy + COL + philosophy (WOW)

cabert: 24bpt, 6 axes + 2 spears, 5 cities, writing + alphabet + meditation + priesthood + literature, war with Brennus

Cam: 36bpt, 5 axes + spear + chariot, 5 cities, writing + IW + alphabet

mice: 31bpt, 3 axes, 4 cities, fishing + writing + alphabet + IW + math

Roland: 40bpt, 2 axes + 2 chariots, 7 cities (WOW), fishing + sailing + monotheism + priesthood + IW + writing

shyuhe: 59bpt, axe + chariot, 5 cities, fishing + IW + HBR + writing + alphabet + math

Great Info shyuhe. Great job with your science production. I should have gone for alphabet, but I thought that I would not reach it first and was afraid that I couldn't trade it for something else. In hindsight, I could have made it first because it was only invented around 0AD. I chose for a safe path, researching those things that I could use myself.

I'll add some statistics of my own. I'll add number of archers to the statistics because it is also a capable unit. Probably not as useful as an axe and chariot, but often good enough to defend with. Heh, I only beat barbs with archers this round. After I had axemen and chariots, they refused to come and visit.

Chariots and especially axemen show your ability to attack or defend aggressively.

Other statistics that I like are number of workers, it tells us how able you are at improving the terrain. Number of cottages and specialists: it tells us how well you have developed the economy. Total population: I have 7 cities, but some of them haven't grown that large and are thus not very efficient. Actually, I also value total number of improved tiles, but it is too much work to count all of those tiles.

You just have to make an impression for yourself.
Religion: number of cities with your state religion and with your holy city religion.
Number of buildings (without palace). This tells us something about how developed your cities are. Of course some buildings are more important that other. A monument is almost worthless when you already have a state religion in the city.
Production: this tells you something about how developed that part of your economy is. It influences the speed with which you can build a military or good buildings.
And the relations with the neighbours. That can be important when you want to trade or make war.

Shyuhe: archers (6), workers (5), cottages (7), specialists (3), production (32) population (20), state religion (1/5), holy city religion (3/5), buildings (14).
Ok relations with neighbours.

jevind: archers (6), workers (5), cottages (3), specialists (1), production (36), population (20), state religion=holy city religion (2/5), building (10).
mixed relations with neighbours.

fbelintani: archers (7), workers (6), cottages (4), specialists (0), production (43), population (24), state religion (1/6), holy city religion (3/6), buildings (11).
Good relations with neighbours.

pigswill: archers (6), workers (4), cottages (1), specialists (4), production (15), population (12), state religion (0/3), holy city religion (3/3), Shrine!, second holy city, buildings (9).
mixed relations with neighbours.

cabert: archers (3), workers (3), cottages (2), specialists (0), production (35), population (16), state religion (0/5), holy city religion (5/5), buildings (12).
relations are fairly bad.

Cam_H: archers (5), workers (4), cottages (2), specialists (2), production (36), population (21), state religion (0/5), holy city religion (3/5), buildings (9).
relations are ok.

Mice: archers (7), workers (4), cottages (4), specialists (2), production (21), population (13), state religion=holy city religion (1/4), buildings (9).
relations are mixed.

Roland Johansen: archers (5), workers (7), cottages (11), specialists (1), production (40), population (25), state religion (2/7), holy city religion (3/7), buildings (14).
relations are fairly good.

Of course, this doesn't cover everything.

I'll vote sunday evening Dutch/French time is that is still ok. Otherwise, you'll have to vote without me.

pigswill · Apr 14, 2007

Good point from cabert about underlying idea of the series: its not only to help less experienced players develop but its also about more experienced players having to up their normal game to keep us level with the AI.

Lots of statistics being produced; very useful facts which you can't glean just by looking at the map though looking at the map is also useful for getting an impression of the elements of people's games that can't be reduced to data.

All of which makes it difficult to vote. It might be helpful (if people have the time) if we could explain the underlying rationale for why we played in a particular way (I'm only saying this coz I've done it already :lol:

).

Öjevind Lång · Apr 14, 2007

So far, I have only received the votes from two people. Come on, folks! It's voting time.

The games one can vote for as the worst game are those posted by the following:

Mice
Cabert
Cam_H
Pigswill
fbelintani
Shyuhe
Roland Johansen

Fix the 5th trash game

Deity

Time for some FeedBack!

Attachments

fly (one day)

Big mouth

Deity

Attachments

Moose

Attachments

Big mouth

Deity

Attachments

Time for some FeedBack!

Deity

fly (one day)

Deity

fly (one day)

Deity

Deity

fly (one day)

Big mouth

Deity

fly (one day)

Deity

Similar threads