Fixed Borders Questions

[fatgordy]

I'm having some trouble understanding some of the concepts with fixed borders. Sorry if there is already a post somewhere describing this, but I searched for about 20 minutes and couldn't readily find it. The Civlopedia helps a bit, but is unclear in a few areas.

A few questions I have:

1. If I have fixed borders enabled and I conquer an enemy city, how can I determine which tiles I will gain control of? Answer: When you conquer the city, all of the tiles that the CITY had the cultural influence over will be up for grabs for the duration of that turn. On the next turn, you will lose control of all tiles that you do not have the leading culture in AND do not have a military unit claiming territory there. If another civ has the most culture there and you have no military units there, they will gain control over it.
2. The civlopedia says if I have fixed borders, all I need to do is have some culture in that space to retain control of it. So I would assume that if that is the case, the only way those borders could change ownership is by another player "claiming" the tile. Even if I have no military presence in the tile. Is that a correct assumption? Answer: Wrong. If another civ has more culture and you do not keep a military unit there to maintain the claim, it will switch to the civ with the most culture.
3. If fixed borders is enabled via civics, can I still overtake rival tiles by overwhelming culture if they do not have fixed borders? Answer: Yes.
4. I see when I text hover over a tile next to a conquered city that it shows that the tile is in my control even though I do not have the most cultural influence. I also see that it has the name of my city after a comma after my civilization name. In some cases the city name is white, in some it's blue. What do these two colors indicate?
5. The civlopedia says that all 8 tiles around a city will ALWAYS (all caps in pedia) belong to that city. As you can see in the screenshot below, I founded a city (the one called Isabelle City - you can only see the letters "Isabe") but I do not control the three tiles to the north of it. Why? (the history of that city is that I razed an enemy city to the lower right of it and on the same turn built Isabelle. I had some units in the tiles that you see are claimed by me, but none in those three tiles. So they reverted to control of Walata in the next turn.) I'm assuming I lost control of those three because Isabelle didn't have any culture built up on that turn and I had no military presence. Answer: The 8 tiles rule is an artifact in the Civpedia from a previous version of AND. The Civpedia will be updated to remove it.
6. Also as you can see, when I conquered Pusan, I was able to retain control of the two tiles adjacent to Isvarapura. If I remove those military units, will I lose those tiles? I have some culture in those spaces so I think I should keep them. I'm not at war with the owner of Isvarapura. But if I do keep them, this conflicts with the Civpedia entry that says the owner of the city ALWAYS gets control of all 8 tiles around it. Answer: Removing my troops allowed those tiles to revert to Isvarapura because he had more culture in them than me. The only way I could maintain my claim on those tiles is to keep a military unit there until I have more culture in the tile.
7. I'm only at war with Korea right now (owner of Cuman). If I remove all of the military units around Isabelle City and Pusan, I would assume that all of those tiles will remain in my control because I have culture in all of them. Is that correct? Answer: Wrong. Removing my units allowed them to revert to the civ that had the most culture in them.

Thanks so much for any enlightenment you can provide!

On a side note, this is an amazingly awesome mod! I haven't played RoM for about 5 years and I'm really enjoying all of the changes that have been made recently! Great job to the mod team!!!

 

[Samson]

I do not really understand fixed borders, so do not take this as certain. Also I shall say what I understand rather than answering your questions directly.

If you have fixed borders and civ A does not, and you both have some claim on a tile, if will switch from your control to Civ A when Civ A has 67% culture on the tile. It will switch from you to him when you have 51% culture. If you both have fixed borders, or neither of you do, then this behaviour is the same as standard BtS.

If you have fixed borders you can use units to take and hold tiles. If a tile is adjasent to a tile that is under your "real" cultural control (ie. not held by a unit only) or under control of a civ that you are at war with, and the tile is not adjacent to a city you can perform the "Claim Tile" action that uses up the rest of the units moves and gives you control of that tile next turn.

A tile that has a unit on and that you culturally control will remain under your control until the unit moves or is killed.

So in your case the way I would tell if you will lose control of a tile is to look at the cultural percentages. If you have most you will keep it.

When you capture a city I think you keep the tiles that where under cultural control of that city for one turn, and then you lose any that other cities have control over.

 

[fatgordy]

I'm thinking the ALWAYS rule regarding the 8 tiles around a city applies to enemy units not being able to claim them by placing units there. I have confirmed that I cannot claim tiles next to an enemy city during my game.

 

[fatgordy]

To test it out, I moved some of my troops from the tiles and hit next turn. Below is what happened. It appears as though even though I had some culture in the tiles, they switched ownership. So the civlopedia is not correct (or at the least, not clear) on this point. Simply having culture there is not enough to maintain control. You have to keep military units there if you do not have the most culture otherwise it can switch.

I think this can easily be cleared up by adding two words to the 3rd sentence of the Pedia entry as such: "However, if your civ doesn't have the leading culture in a claimed tile, you must keep at least one unit on it each turn in order not to lose it again"

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I need to update Civilopedia but this is how it works:

Normally, culturally stronger civ owns the tile. If a civ has Fixed Borders and you don't, you need twice its culture on a tile to get control over that tile. And you will never be able to get control of that tile as long as there is an enemy unit on that tile. If both civs have Fixed Borders, the "double culture" rule doesn't apply and you only need 51% culture to win that tile, always provided there are no enemy units on that tile.
About the 8 tiles surrounding a city, that's a leftover in the civilopedia. Lot of people complained about that 8 tiles rule, it becomes boring and makes cultural pressure totally useless; so it's been made an option. If you want those 8 tiles around the city to always belong to the city, you can check "Minimum City Border" option before starting a game. That's it more or less. I'll update text in civilopedia in my next update.

 

[fatgordy]

I have to admit I'm really liking the dynamics associated with this fixed border concept now that I have a better grasp for how it works. It's kind of fun monitoring and shoring up my defensive positions in places where they may be at risk of flipping. Good stuff!

 

[fatgordy]

The only remaining question I have is the one about the hover text city colors. Anyone know what the different colors mean?

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I may have found an error with fixed borders. My bad, Brennus has a Man at arms there. sorry. When Brennus moved out his garrison troops and I re-occupied the fort, it still didn't flip to me,

Spoiler :

and I have 67% now V's 0% for Brennus, 10% Incan and 21% Khmer.

Spoiler :

I have joint majority culture, with another civ of 40%, the 'owner' of the tile has zero. They have NO units on it, I've had a unit for 200+ turns, I've moved it out and back in. Once they did have a unit on it, but no more.

Though it has flipped some outlining tiles to me.

the other 40% civ, the Khmer, have NEVER owned the tile since I've been the Japanese. I think the Incan's 1st owned it, not sure, but it won't flip to me.

I've built a fort next to it, sat a unit in the fort, moved it out and back in, but not over 2 turns, will try that next.

Another problem, same game, same screen shot, the Khmer rebels are still a minor civ, even though they can research Usury. Don't show up on F4 screen, so assume they have fixed borders.

And a 3rd Thing, the 'Heresy' event is a bit strong on action isn't, I've had it twice in 5 turns, once in Anarchy changing to State church, and once as soon as I got out of Anarchy. Maybe I was unlucky??? but losing 2K research when only making 80 per turn hurts.

Here's another example of a fort that won't flip, no Celtic city near by, I've occupied the fort,

Spoiler :

Yet it won't flip to me.

 

[Noyyau]

Maybe the Fort doesn't flip because you are not at war with the current owner?
I see "Owner: Celtia" in the screenshots, but in the one where the scoreboard is visible, you're Friendly with the Celts and have Embassy and Open Borders. So they are allowing passage in their territory, including the Fort, and you can't flip it.

Possible solutions:
1) Use a Spy and Sabotage the Fort
2) War against Celts

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Yes Noyyau, your possibly correct.

I might remember civs I was at war with, strolling into forts I'd forgotten about.

Anyway, it eventually did flip to me, at 97% culture. I then destroyed both the forts.

 

[Hrvoje193]

I noticed battle outcome affect civ A with fixed borders only if it is positive.
On the other hand, I don't have fixed borders so battle affects me if I loose unit.If I win nothing happens.