Food-based Economies in the late game

[TheMeInTeam]

Still not convinced that a SE is any better at war than a CE by the way. And certainly not at building infrastructure.

I can definitely vouch for the CE at war.

In concept, the idea is simple. Either you're working hammer tiles, which generally offer neither food nor commerce (Who here wishes they had 12 cows in all of their BFC's? I know I do), or you aren't working them, but rather food (to use specialists) or a cottage.

True, cottages need to be worked to grow while specialists confer their bonuses instantly. However, not every city in a CE needs to be making units. Also, for most of the early game your only production is hills + metal anyway. In that scenario, food resources can cover people working the mines, and the rest can be on cottages. Those cottages grow. What does the AI use? Yeah...cottages. Actually, villages/towns usually when you take them.

Later in the game, the CE can go just as dedicated evil war happy as its counterpart, as long as you are running US (don't give me an argument like "only if you're running US!" The same applies to caste/rep for SE). Just like the SE, at the cost of research, you can make units. Just bump the slider down a bit. If your nation is somewhat big, you're talking 3-4 extra units per turn (just rush buy something that's barely started in a commerce city). US makes you somewhat servicable in terms of hammers too, not ideal but enough that those cities can actually build things decently if they're working lots of towns.

 

[obsolete]

Still not convinced that a SE is any better at war than a CE by the way. And certainly not at building infrastructure.

If you still feel that way, then how about a builder's challenge to get some convincing? I'll take SE and you can do your CE. Any level you feel comfortable with.

And that goes for anyone else here...






No takers? I thought as much...

 

[Jazzmail]

I get the impression you would beat me with CE or SE, if you really play any level.
The advantage of either economy may not be great enough that beating me on monarch or emperor level would prove anything.

Don't even bother trying to prove anything by playing against Ibian. It suddenly hit me that he's not even playing the same game.

That is if it makes sense to give up bureaucracy for that. Last time i pondered this decision i had 8 cities, most of them cottaged, and bureau still won out (barely).

I think most of us by the time we hit nationalism, have atleast 3 times as much.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

If you still feel that way, then how about a builder's challenge to get some convincing? I'll take SE and you can do your CE. Any level you feel comfortable with.

And that goes for anyone else here...

any time at war; obviously not at building...

 

[Groogaroo]

If you still feel that way, then how about a builder's challenge to get some convincing? I'll take SE and you can do your CE. Any level you feel comfortable with.

And that goes for anyone else here...

I would like to see a challege type game, two experts, same map, different economies. Not that it would prove anything or stop the constant economy debate. It would just be an interesting read!

there was that CE/SE head to head between DaveMcW and Futurehermit, but they were aiming for space not war.

No takers? I thought as much...

definatley not a taker just interested!

 

[Iranon]

I'd be hard-pressed to think of a game not made easier by a little conquest by that time, apart from a very early culture win. However, that's not my problem with Ibian's points.
He might restrict himself for flavour reasons (no unprovoked wars; getting more satisfaction out of winning with a tiny civ), he might be safe through diplomacy but loth to stir up a war that might backfire (lodged between warmongers under Agg. AI), he might be stuck on a smallish island without ability to wage an effective cross-continental war.
The assumption of a very compact empire only makes his points less widely applicable, it doesn't invalidate them.

My real problem is the inconsistency of singing the praises of towns even in situations where Representation and Bureaucracy remain ideal. If there is potential for vertical growth (and in the modern age, there often is... happiness and health caps are harshest in the industrial age), specialists are flat-out more efficient in addition to their soft benefits.

 

[Ibian]

If you still feel that way, then how about a builder's challenge to get some convincing? I'll take SE and you can do your CE. Any level you feel comfortable with.

How would that work?

 

[Ibian]

My real problem is the inconsistency of singing the praises of towns even in situations where Representation and Bureaucracy remain ideal. If there is potential for vertical growth (and in the modern age, there often is... happiness and health caps are harshest in the industrial age), specialists are flat-out more efficient in addition to their soft benefits.

Feel free to explain why, too.

And just for the record, i still hate cottages. The growth mechanic is annoying and they are so damn inflexible. They are also too useful to ignore.

 

[acidsatyr]

Still not convinced that a SE is any better at war than a CE by the way. And certainly not at building infrastructure.

So very very wrong which shows the lack of your understanding on the subject, I am sorry.
Two absolutely major KEY facts of where FE/SE > CE is

1) Faster building of infrastructure
2) Easier preparation and wartime

SE builds infrastructure undoubtedly faster than CE does with the use of slavery since food>hammer. Infrastructure is built faster in SE cities therefore any simple comparation of FE vs. CE using same timeline and simple tile vs. tile construct is not valid.

 

[Roxlimn]

Ibian:

It would be too complicated to try to explain. Unless you're Financial, growing to population limits using Slavery for infrastructure development and other benefits is very efficient, especially when you can use Caste System concurrently to funnel any extra population into Specialists when you don't have the tiles running just yet.

The best way to demonstrate to you just how good early SE is compared to CE, you would have to play a game building no cottages whatsoever. As soon as you get the trick, all manners of synergies just play out and you then get the point.

It used to be thought that once US and Free Speech kick in, FEs and their GP benefits ought to be abandoned, but it has since been shown that it can be possible to continue to use an FE-centered economy and still win a game that's still in contention, without a significant loss compared to a transition to a cottage-based economy.

MrCynical:

While the values you've given for priest, merchant and scientist can be justified, the ones for spies and artists can't. This is simply because espionage and culture are not freely convertible into gold or science. You can under some circumstances be able to steal tech or gold, so you might be able to come up with a commerce value for an espionage point, but it really isn't going to be 1:1. Culture cannot be converted to anything else, and so cannot be compared to culture (hence you're overvalueing artists. They are great for culture victories, but rather useless for powering an economy).

Espionage can be used to steal technology, and more importantly, is also used to defend against enemy espionage and for seeing enemy research. These passive functions are very important - important enough that many high level players micro-manage espionage point assignment to enable tech seeing and espionage defense. It's hard to concretize the benefit, I agree, but it's not useless. In some cases, you would actually rather have the espionage.

Culture via artists is, IMO, actually undervalued rather than the converse. Artists allow you to focus culture production in cities that really need to push back culturally, sparing you hundreds of gold on the slider developing culture where you don't really need it. It's much more efficient to assign artists in border cities rather than adjust the slider even 10%. Moreover, this is culture you really need. It's hard to put a price on keeping your borders far enough that your border city can't be attacked by siege the same turn an enemy AI pronounces war, or extra tiles to work, free cities from revolts, and good cultural control for war, but I would rate all of those benefits rather highly.

Since you can't get it any other way, this kind of cultural output is easily worth MORE than a 1:1 correspondence (since you would otherwise have to raise the slider and lose tons of gold and research).

The use is situational, but when you need to use it, the output is extremely valuable.

 

[Ibian]

SE builds infrastructure undoubtedly faster than CE does with the use of slavery since food>hammer. Infrastructure is built faster in SE cities therefore any simple comparation of FE vs. CE using same timeline and simple tile vs. tile construct is not valid.

Specialists are a bad source of hammers and food as well. So still no. A CE can use slavery and work mines every bit as well as a SE.

 

[MrCynical]

Culture via artists is, IMO, actually undervalued rather than the converse. Artists allow you to focus culture production in cities that really need to push back culturally, sparing you hundreds of gold on the slider developing culture where you don't really need it.

Except in the very early stages, I'm never going to use the culture slider for border pushing. There are a huge number of options for generating culture in the late game, and they are focused in the relevant place, unlike the slider. Corporations? Religion? Sistine? Artists are fine for border pusing, but their culture still isn't usuable to power an economy, since it cannot be converted into anything else. You're trying to justify a global conversion rate based on a very small situational aspect.

Espionage can be converted to science, hence I gave this the benefit of the doubt for culture value. Culture cannot be converted - it has it's uses, but I cannot research or pay the maintenance with it. Hence it cannot be equated to commerce/gold/science. Basic outputs of commerce/gold/science relative to culture in the late game (plus the impact of the amounts generated), suggests the value of one culture point is way below that of one commerce.

 

[Ibian]

It would be too complicated to try to explain.

Try anyway. I have explained my side of things more than a few times by now.

It used to be thought that once US and Free Speech kick in, FEs and their GP benefits ought to be abandoned, but it has since been shown that it can be possible to continue to use an FE-centered economy and still win a game that's still in contention, without a significant loss compared to a transition to a cottage-based economy.

The trick here is that cottages need time to grow. If you do that early on they beat anything else in terms of beakers lategame.

Am i arguing with people who are trying to grow cottages post-biology?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

pre democracy doesn't make too much sense in growing cottages; bar bureau scenario...

 

[acidsatyr]

Specialists are a bad source of hammers and food as well. So still no. A CE can use slavery and work mines every bit as well as a SE.

no, you don't understand. You don't use specialists for hammers, you use food. You convert food to hammers, you dont works mines for hammers, you use slavery to whip population for hammers...

 

[obsolete]

Specialists are a bad source of hammers and food as well. So still no. A CE can use slavery and work mines every bit as well as a SE.

I suppose, if you are using SE to run only GA's then yes. You may be right there, the hammers would be coming from a weak source. But there is still a lot more to it than that...

Now, let's go back to the beginning here, because I'm starting to get a little confused. What level is it you play at again?

 

[Ibian]

no, you don't understand. You don't use specialists for hammers, you use food. You convert food to hammers, you dont works mines for hammers, you use slavery to whip population for hammers...

And yet you still didnt say a thing about why SE does it better.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

actually the discussion was about late game...

 

[Ibian]

I suppose, if you are using SE to run only GA's then yes. You may be right there, the hammers would be coming from a weak source. But there is still a lot more to it than that...

Such as?

Now, let's go back to the beginning here, because I'm starting to get a little confused. What level is it you play at again?

Monarch.

 

[Iranon]

Erm, what is there left to explain?

After Biology, with Bureaucracy and Representation as given and with potential for vertical growth...

2 towns = 15C in the capital, 10C elsewhere
2 farms + 2 scientists = 12C
2 SP watermills + 1 scientist = 6H12C in your capital, 4H10C elsewhere

In the capital, towns can still compete thanks to Bureaucracy. Elsewhere, scientists help your economy more
If you are willing to run State Property, watermills do exactly the same as towns for research outside the capital, with some free production thrown in. In the capital, I would gladly take 6 hammers at the expense of 3 commerce.

If Financial enters the equation, towns are upgraded to 12C/18C, watermills to 4H12C/6H15C. Farms lose their edge and are only equal to towns now in terms of raw output(they are still more flexible though); watermills stay ahead.