Food-based Economies in the late game

[Ibian]

Precisely. There is no such thing as a pure CE economy because it's just colossally inefficient. You always want a GP Farm somewhere.

A pure SE is just as bad an idea. Once you start getting all your GP from 1-2 cities, the rest are better off working cottages.

Up to what number of Specialist Cities is sensible and why?

1 or 2 (my wonderspammer and my regular GP farm in my case). The more SE cities you have the more GPP will be going to waste for the sake of maybe a few more GP over the course of the game.

nearly all sensible economies in the early game are Farm based.

Inaccurate.

Every single type of economy is food based. There is no such thing as a food economy. Or if you prefer another variation, all economies are food economies.

 

[Groogaroo]

I finally skimmed that a while ago. I believe there were bonuses for getting to certain things first, like Liberalism. Turns out the CE won that liber race, which really shocked me because CE just has no chance competing against a SE for that race. However, the reason why this weirdness happened, is that the CE guy was allowed and did turn his capital into a SE base.

Mystery solved.

Yes the Dave/FutureHermit game did go a bit wonky, with dave using his capital as Gp farm. Also lets not forget Dave is the king of cottages and at the time FutureHermit openenly admitted he was not an expert at a SE at the time so the odds were a bit stacked.

If they had another go now it would be much closer contest, I bet.

I still like to see a challenge, just for fun! not to solve any arguments, as it would probably just open up even more endless disscusion.

 

[Roxlimn]

SnowlyWhite:

ce = a decent number of cottages in a couple of cities; ce pre liberalism = bureau cottaged capitol - the rest can do whatever.
fe = no cottages except 1 city tops

but running a gp farm is a common sense thing, not a trait of the economy; same as running some farms in a ce...

Essentially, you're saying that even though a good portion of your early game economy focuses on making food and creating a Specialist City for GPs, you're not running a Farm based economy? I don't see how that makes any kind of sense.

You're running a CE even though cottages in the early game contribute minuscule amounts of commerce to your total output?

Huh?

I'd take a bureau capitol with academy over any fe early game(provided there's some decent spot for a gp farm, which in 90% of the cases is)

Sometimes that good GP spot is your capital and there's no good place to go for cottages. What then? The simple fact that you can run Bureaucracy from Civil Service implies that this is no "early game."

Ibian:

A pure SE is just as bad an idea. Once you start getting all your GP from 1-2 cities, the rest are better off working cottages.

See, I don't agree with that. Until I can get the infrastructure up and working, I really would rather grow the population and whip out the structures. In fact, futurehermit recently initiated a thread about mathematically figuring out when it's best to convert farms to cottages for a late game city - assuming it needed to grow and such.

The math guys figured out that any early growth of cottages that hampered city growth was detrimental because you crippled population for working MORE cottages. So it was more efficient to grow a substantial portion of the city towards a targeted max pop before cottaging over the farms, even though it took later in the game for the cottages to mature.

The thing I've found through playing the game is that working cottages costs hammers and delays city growth. In Slavery, that city growth costs even more hammers that you could be putting towards infrastructure or units.

Use of Specialists early game is even more accentuated if you can snag Pyramids early and get access to Representation in the BCs. At that point in the game, 3+ beakers per pop point plus GPP production is pretty darned good.

Can't match that immediate output quite as fast with Cottages.

Let's say you just got the Pyramids, changed Civics, and established a new city on River Grasslands. Put farms or put cottages?

I would say farms. I'm thinking you would, too, at least until you can get Monuments and Granaries up.

1 or 2 (my wonderspammer and my regular GP farm in my case). The more SE cities you have the more GPP will be going to waste for the sake of maybe a few more GP over the course of the game.

How many GPs you get isn't as important as when you get them. Philo doesn't get you many more GPs than a non-Philo Civ. But it makes sure you get them twice as fast. That's huge.

I would gladly give up 50% of my total GP allotment for a game if I could get all of those GPs on turn one.

Running multiple Specialist Cities allows you to tailor GP production and get them sooner rather than later.

Every single type of economy is food based. There is no such thing as a food economy. Or if you prefer another variation, all economies are food economies.

Farm, not food. I'll accept food though. Yes, all sensible economies are food based. You could run a cottage/resource-specific-only economy, but it would suck.

 

[Ibian]

See, I don't agree with that. Until I can get the infrastructure up and working, I really would rather grow the population and whip out the structures.

Why are you talking about production when the topic is CE vs SE? It has nothing to do with research.

 

[Roxlimn]

The topic is food-based economies.

Food in the early game is directly convertible to production through the whip. Haven't we already agreed that all sensible economies are food based to a greater or lesser degree?

MY question is, given Pyramids and the early game with a new city, would you rather work farms with the first few pop points or cottages right away?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

Essentially, you're saying that even though a good portion of your early game economy focuses on making food and creating a Specialist City for GPs, you're not running a Farm based economy? I don't see how that makes any kind of sense.

the question is where your research comes from; based on that, you define what economy you're running. If most of your research comes from slider(including the beakers from bulbing), then you're running a ce; if most of your research comes from specialists/bulbing, then you're running a fe or whatever you wanna name it.

You're running a CE even though cottages in the early game contribute minuscule amounts of commerce to your total output?

beaker per beaker, if I'm preparing for bureaucracy, then I'm quite sure 50%+ of my research is traditional research.

Sometimes that good GP spot is your capital and there's no good place to go for cottages.

sometimes you start in tundra... Like the example with the mids; if you got the mids, obviously you don't start planting cottages...

But I stand by my point: non representation specs. vs a decent academy capitol - the capitol will beat the specs. with a hand behind it's back. And decent academy capitol doesn't imply you don't run a gp farm; however, even with 2 additional gses only(normally I aim for 4, including the one with the academy, but even with 3) you won't have problems getting lib. 1st.

 

[Ibian]

MY question is, given Pyramids and the early game with a new city, would you rather work farms with the first few pop points or cottages right away?

Thats not a sensible question. The relevant question is cottages vs farms+specialists.

 

[Roxlimn]

SnowlyWhite:

the question is where your research comes from; based on that, you define what economy you're running. If most of your research comes from slider(including the beakers from bulbing), then you're running a ce; if most of your research comes from specialists/bulbing, then you're running a fe or whatever you wanna name it.

That's a thoroughly weird definition. It's possible, for instance, for most of your research to come from the slider without most of that research coming from cottages. You can do this with a trade-based economy featuring large coastal cities to boost trade output, Harbors, the GLH and the Temple of Artemis.

Indeed, in the early game, the commerce you get from premium tiles and your palace are a significant fraction of your total commerce output (hence the incredible value of Gold and Gems), to say nothing of the small amounts you get from trade routes and gpt deals and such.

The slider is no way to descibe a CE in particular.

If you're running a cottage economy, then most of your economy should be from cottages. Sounds sensible, no?

beaker per beaker, if I'm preparing for bureaucracy, then I'm quite sure 50%+ of my research is traditional research.

How much of it is from cottages? Is it 50%? If it is, then 50% of your research is from other sources, and you're running a hybrid economy.

But I stand by my point: non representation specs. vs a decent academy capitol - the capitol will beat the specs. with a hand behind it's back. And decent academy capitol doesn't imply you don't run a gp farm; however, even with 2 additional gses only(normally I aim for 4, including the one with the academy, but even with 3) you won't have problems getting lib. 1st.

A "decent academy capitol" requires a fair number of useful tiles for the purpose, plus a favorable Civics change later, and the inclusion of commerce, palace, and other sundry sources of commerce.

You want to compare that to bare naked specialist output only? How is that even comparable?

 

[Roxlimn]

Ibian:

Thats not a sensible question. The relevant question is cottages vs farms+specialists.

Of course it is. Comparing cottages to farms+specialists is the senseless question because it ignores all manner of game interactions to get to each respective point, and the various other synergies and situation you can put each to good use.

So, if you have a Pyramid and a new city in the early game, would you focus on farms for the first few pop points? Yes, right?

Don't worry. The nature of the question is self-defining. Since I asked with a specific situation in mind, it's only applicable for that situation.

 

[Ibian]

So to sum up, you dont believe in the concept of different economy types. What are you arguing about at this point?

 

[Roxlimn]

Of course I do. I could run a mostly Cottaged Civ if I had Financial and lots of Flood Plains, for instance. Heck, I'm prone to cottaging Flood Plains even if I'm not Financial.

What economy you run is determined by what map you're given. It's counterproductive to say that cottaged economies are better than food economies in the early game because restricting yourself to one in the belief that it's superior in all instances is self-defeating. Each tile and each map lends itself to development in a particular manner. What's more powerful then is only more powerful in that instance.

Even in the late game, it's been shown that it's possible to benefit from a largely Specialist-driven Food-based economy (doesn't mean no cottages) given some caveats and synergy leverages.

 

[Ibian]

So exactly what is your argument then? How do you think a lategame SE beats or even matches cottages?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

If you're running a cottage economy, then most of your economy should be from cottages. Sounds sensible, no?

semantics aside, what I guess 99% ppl. on this forum understand as a ce economy is an economy where probably a... <varies depends on period>% of improvements are cottages

bringing palace and special resources in the game is perfectly irrelevant. Both economies get a palace, both normally work a calendar or a gold/gem resource... same for trade routes...

A "decent academy capitol" requires a fair number of useful tiles for the purpose, plus a favorable Civics change later, and the inclusion of commerce, palace, and other sundry sources of commerce.

it requires about 10 cottageable tiles. Again, palace is in both economies, same for trade routes... Both economies have library as sci. modifier(or at least, any sensible person will build a library) and so on...

 

[Roxlimn]

Ibian:

So exactly what is your argument then? How do you think a lategame SE beats or even matches cottages?

1. This is about food based economies, not SE or specialists in particular. I'm voicing my support of its unmistakable power in the early game, which you doubted.

2. I don't really know. As far as I can tell, most of my cities in the late game are so large even my Cottaged cities in a "hybrid CE" are running a fair number of Specialists themselves - and the boost in output from max Cottage pop level is fairly significant. I suspect that some of it is from trade routes and some of it is from direct Specialist output.

Running all Specialists as I've seen here seems to hinge on using the slider to counter Emancipation unhappiness, then running Specialists under Rep to advantage is specialized cities. Since I haven't done any such late game tactic myself, I really don't know.

SnowlyWhite:

semantics aside, what I guess 99% ppl. on this forum understand as a ce economy is an economy where probably a... <varies depends on period>% of improvements are cottages

You'd be surprised. I gather you weren't around for the classic SE vs. CE threads.

futurehermit, among others, seems to describe "transition economy" as an economy that uses few cottages pre-Lib and significantly more later on (as many as the tiles profitably allow), growing the Towns accelerated under Emancipation.

Few FE and SE people will say that they will use NO cottages whatsoever, nor will they limit cottage use to 1 city only if the map dictates otherwise, though most of their commerce will have come from Rep Scientists or Merchants.

Some CE people will volunteer cottages on tiles where few other posters will, even other "CE enthusiasts" who like to use cottages for their games. Dave is (in)famous for this, of course.

So no, I don't think you really know what the posters in these forums think, and no, I don't think a variable percentage of unknown number will meet the criteria for that.

bringing palace and special resources in the game is perfectly irrelevant. Both economies get a palace, both normally work a calendar or a gold/gem resource... same for trade routes...

A Trade-Based economy is neither a largely Food economy nor a largely Cottage economy. It sacrifices key points for both kinds of economies to pursue generating large amounts of commerce through trade routes.

It's not simply either one or the other. There's also the Espionage-based economy if you want to go further into that. Food or Cottage is not the end-all or be-all of BTS economies.

Having said a few things about that, let's comment on the early game and food. It's true that tile premium and certain auto-effects generate large amounts of commerce for the early game and it's true that all economy types benefit from them immensely.

So let's put this another way. At what point in the game would you significantly sacrifice farm-based city growth for cottaging?

it requires about 10 cottageable tiles. Again, palace is in both economies, same for trade routes... Both economies have library as sci. modifier(or at least, any sensible person will build a library) and so on...

Sorry. It's just not that simple. You require 10 tiles to be specific. That alone makes this a situational advantage on a map tailored to favor cottaging. What if none of the tiles are conducive to cottaging, or less than 10 are? This is not an unusual situation. A seaside start with plains, Forests, and hills and some land-based premiums can easily compromise early cottaging or cottaging 10 tiles at all.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

A Trade-Based economy is neither a largely Food economy nor a largely Cottage economy. It sacrifices key points for both kinds of economies to pursue generating large amounts of commerce through trade routes.

It's not simply either one or the other. There's also the Espionage-based economy if you want to go further into that. Food or Cottage is not the end-all or be-all of BTS economies.

trade based economy = glh; it sacrifices nil beside the time required to build glh and harbour... what you go from there on is ce or fe

espionage economy... no clue, beside being famously ineffective, didn't hit me in any way.

So let's put this another way. At what point in the game would you significantly sacrifice farm-based city growth for cottaging?

and at what point will I take out my 3rd settler... no clue, really... depends on the map...

Sorry. It's just not that simple. You require 10 tiles to be specific. That alone makes this a situational advantage on a map tailored to favor cottaging. What if none of the tiles are conducive to cottaging, or less than 10 are?

then you don't play with a bureau capitol...

what's the point?

 

[Roxlimn]

SnowlyWhite:

trade based economy = glh; it sacrifices nil beside the time required to build glh and harbour... what you go from there on is ce or fe

espionage economy... no clue, beside being famously ineffective, didn't hit me in any way.

Trade Based economy is based on GLH, Temple of Artemis, and lots of large coastal cities. Favoring food tiles over specialist means that while it is a kind of food economy, it's not typical in necessarily using Specialists. The fact that many of its cities sacrifice cottaging and specialist use for coastal placements and size (necessary to make it competitive) differentiates it.

You can't just not go all out on this. Making a GLH alone doesn't mean that most of your commerce is being derived from trade routes. An SE or a CE with a GLH isn't a trade-based economy.

EE is actually fairly useful, IIRC. I've used 0 beakers for espionage a few times myself. It's quite effective, I can assure you.

and at what point will I take out my 3rd settler... no clue, really... depends on the map...

Exactly. Which indicates that given the right map and the right situation (which doesn't need to be marginal to the point of negligible), prioritizing farming and Specialist use can be better than cottaging.

then you don't play with a bureau capitol...

what's the point?

There's no comparing an entire city and economy base to bare naked specialist output?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Why are you talking about production when the topic is CE vs SE? It has nothing to do with research.

Indeed. Let's talk research. Having no cottages whatsoever in your empire may result in:




(ps. that's post-liberalism on deity)

 

[Roxlimn]

Dang, that's hot. Love the GPP output on that city.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

ok, obviously it requires the cities to be costal

big cities aren't necesarry anymore; same for toa. In warlords bureau cap. with toa was supposedly a trade economy.

Finally, the purpose isn't to have most of your research coming from "source x".

The purpose is finding a "source x" which will give you extra oomph. If 25% of my reseach comes from trade routes, it's a trade economy - without that glh I would've been 3 techs behind, with it I'm 2 ahead.

Hence the statement that: "is an economy where probably a... <varies depends on period>% of improvements are cottages". I don't even expect cottages to be the majority of the tiles; if in situation x, working a farm is better then working a cottage you work the farm...

A good indication you run ce? You consider picking PP from lib.(and hopefully you reffrain from doing it ) A good indication you run fe? You definitelly want nat. and drafting.

There's no comparing an entire city and economy base to bare naked specialist output?

where did that come from? your previous statement was:

If you do cottages early on, you lose out on the benefits of early game FE, which is, as I told you, best taught through experience.

and my statement was that I'd take a bureau capitol over an early game fe. Not that I'm comparing the bare output of specialists with the output of the whole economy; more like I"m comparing when I'd reach liberalism using a and b. And my statement is b reaches earlier then a.

 

[Ibian]

Indeed. Let's talk research. Having no cottages whatsoever in your empire may result in:

Turn 2 farms into cottages and lose the starving scientist. Net gain 4 base beakers once the town is grown with less population used. Beats it already at the village stage. If you convert now you will have made up the difference in 65 turns and from there its pure profit.

Specialists simply dont make optimal use of resources until such time as you pass the number of useful workable tiles.