Forcing the AI into war

[UltraMind]

Whenever I'm in someone else's territory for two consecutive turns, and they tell me to leave both times, I'm forced to either leave, or declare war. Well I must be doing something wrong, because for several turns now the Romans have a worker and galleon camped out in my 'hood. Every time I tell them to leave, they just tell me they "were wondering if (I) had any backbone" and leave it at that. What do I have to do to force a war on these guys?

 

[Garvarg]

I dont know about forcing them to start a war, but you can always start one yourself!!!
Push F4 and click on their figure head. One of the options that you are given is to declare war. If when you click on a figure head you get other negotiation items, click on clear table, close the box and reopen it, now go ahead and declare war.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Whenever I'm in someone else's territory for two consecutive turns, and they tell me to leave both times, I'm forced to either leave, or declare war. Well I must be doing something wrong, because for several turns now the Romans have a worker and galleon camped out in my 'hood. Every time I tell them to leave, they just tell me they "were wondering if (I) had any backbone" and leave it at that. What do I have to do to force a war on these guys?

Same answer, you have to declare it yourself. When the units in your territory aren't combat units, it seems I never get the "Leave or Declare War" option.

There are a couple of ways to make war more likely. Make arrogant demands, negotiate an embargo against him. There isn't a sure-fire way to do it, though.

I think you're right, there's a double standard at work here. The AI seems to get the option "leave or declare" a lot more than the humanoid does.

 

[UltraMind]

I dont know about forcing them to start a war, but you can always start one yourself!!!
Push F4 and click on their figure head. One of the options that you are given is to declare war. If when you click on a figure head you get other negotiation items, click on clear table, close the box and reopen it, now go ahead and declare war.

That won't be any good, because they won't trust me for an unacceptably long time (who cares that they ran roughshod over treaties before?) I need a way to force a war while staying legally safe. This issue dates back to another issue I was having, where I felt cheated, because no matter how desperate the other civ was, I could only extort a limited number of technologies from them.

So is this in fact a double standard? And the AIs can go stomping all around my 'hood and I can't legally declare war for that? The worker isn't a military unit, but the galleon is, and even when the galleon isn't in my waters, the presence of the worker is enough to allow me to demand that they leave.

This isn't the first time I've heard that if you make threats or unreasonable demands, you can provoke another leader. How true is this? Where does one source this fact?

 

[Brucha]

That won't be any good, because they won't trust me for an unacceptably long time (who cares that they ran roughshod over treaties before?) I need a way to force a war while staying legally safe. This issue dates back to another issue I was having, where I felt cheated, because no matter how desperate the other civ was, I could only extort a limited number of technologies from them.

So is this in fact a double standard? And the AIs can go stomping all around my 'hood and I can't legally declare war for that? The worker isn't a military unit, but the galleon is, and even when the galleon isn't in my waters, the presence of the worker is enough to allow me to demand that they leave.

This isn't the first time I've heard that if you make threats or unreasonable demands, you can provoke another leader. How true is this? Where does one source this fact?

Take a look here concerning AI Attitudes and how they react to player actions.
To quote the article concerning your specific problem:

+1 If they ask you to leave their territory, +4 if you are given the orders to leave or declare war. These are only temporary, and as long as you leave when forced to, you get the points back the next turn. You can continually send 1 troop in, spend 1 turn there and claim you will leave, leave when you are forced to, but go back into their territory the next turn, and the AI attitude will not drop in the long run, just keep cycling between +/- 5 pts.

I believe this works in reverse when demanding them to leave your territory. Basically, you need your opponent's attitude high enough (in AI Attitudes a high score means the AI is more aggressive) to give you the declare war option in the diplomacy screen. This does not stop you from declaring war on your own, however.

What I "think" you are looking for is a way to have the AI declare war on you while having units inside your borders. The best way to do this is first sign a trade embargo against them, then, and again I will quote the above article:

+2 You demand tribute from the AI. Whether they actually pay the tribute or not. If they have a good attitude towards you, this will be +1, but once they are annoyed/furious it will be +2 each time you demand tribute. You can make 50 tributes in one turn and get a civ at +100 towards you (very, very furious).

After making a number of demands, then demand for them to leave your borders. that should be sufficient to force the AI to declare war!

 

[UltraMind]

Take a look here concerning AI Attitudes and how they react to player actions.
To quote the article concerning your specific problem:

I took a look at the article you linked, but it just landed me in reply mode.

I believe this works in reverse when demanding them to leave your territory. Basically, you need your opponent's attitude high enough (in AI Attitudes a high score means the AI is more aggressive) to give you the declare war option in the diplomacy screen. This does not stop you from declaring war on your own, however.

So you say I should be demanding they leave each turn, and invading their territory, but leaving when forced to? But what do you mean by "to give you the declare war option"? I seem to always have the option to declare war, but usually it means a peace treaty violation on my part.

What I "think" you are looking for is a way to have the AI declare war on you while having units inside your borders. The best way to do this is first sign a trade embargo against them, then, and again I will quote the above article:

What I'm looking for is a way to get into a war, but have other's trust that I'll live up to the next treaty I sign. I can't sign an embargo, because I don't have that technology and I don't have that technology because I can't extort the technologies I want

+2 You demand tribute from the AI. Whether they actually pay the tribute or not. If they have a good attitude towards you, this will be +1, but once they are annoyed/furious it will be +2 each time you demand tribute. You can make 50 tributes in one turn and get a civ at +100 towards you (very, very furious).

After making a number of demands, then demand for them to leave your borders. that should be sufficient to force the AI to declare war!

Ok, so demand tribute, and everything else in parallel. Perhaps if you could supply me with that article you intended, I could figure out what other methods to provoke war. Thanks

 

[Brucha]

I took a look at the article you linked, but it just landed me in reply mode.

So you say I should be demanding they leave each turn, and invading their territory, but leaving when forced to? But what do you mean by "to give you the declare war option"? I seem to always have the option to declare war, but usually it means a peace treaty violation on my part.

What I'm looking for is a way to get into a war, but have other's trust that I'll live up to the next treaty I sign. I can't sign an embargo, because I don't have that technology and I don't have that technology because I can't extort the technologies I want

Actually what I meant was that, while the enemy is in your borders, first make a trade embargo against them with another civ - this will make the AI mad at you to a small degree. Then make a number of demands against the enemy civ with units in your lands. Make whatever kind of demands you want - gold, techs, cities, does not matter. Each demand will make the AI even more mad at you. Do this like fifty-hundred times - I guarantee this will change the AI's attitude about you. Finally, demand the Ai to leave you border. Do all of this during a single turn. If you have made the AI mad enough, it should declare war on you instead of simply leaving or staying inside you borders. By having the AI declare war, you won't take a rep penalty for breaking a peace treaty and won't hurt your ability for deals in the future, since the AI broke the peace and declared and not you.

Ok, so demand tribute, and everything else in parallel. Perhaps if you could supply me with that article you intended, I could figure out what other methods to provoke war. Thanks

I'm not sure what you mean about an article I mentioned, beyond the AI Attitude article.

 

[UltraMind]

Actually what I meant was that, while the enemy is in your borders, first make a trade embargo against them with another civ - this will make the AI mad at you to a small degree. Then make a number of demands against the enemy civ with units in your lands. Make whatever kind of demands you want - gold, techs, cities, does not matter. Each demand will make the AI even more mad at you. Do this like fifty-hundred times - I guarantee this will change the AI's attitude about you. Finally, demand the Ai to leave you border. Do all of this during a single turn. If you have made the AI mad enough, it should declare war on you instead of simply leaving or staying inside you borders. By having the AI declare war, you won't take a rep penalty for breaking a peace treaty and won't hurt your ability for deals in the future, since the AI broke the peace and declared and not you.

I can't make a trade embargo, because I don't have Nationalism yet. I don't have the dough to establish embassies anyway.
But I can contact Rome, so that's what I did. Selected all their cities, techs, luxuries and gold and clicked "take this deal or suffer the consequences". They just told me they don't frighten easily, so I clicked it another 99x like I'm 5-years-old again. Then I demanded they leave, and they just made the same crack about me having backbone. No war. (And probably not withdrawal either) And I did all this while not invading their territory.

I'm not sure what you mean about an article I mentioned, beyond the AI Attitude article.

That's the article I'm talking about. I didn't get it. Check the link. It's broken.

 

[Brucha]

I can't make a trade embargo, because I don't have Nationalism yet. I don't have the dough to establish embassies anyway.
But I can contact Rome, so that's what I did. Selected all their cities, techs, luxuries and gold and clicked "take this deal or suffer the consequences". They just told me they don't frighten easily, so I clicked it another 99x like I'm 5-years-old again. Then I demanded they leave, and they just made the same crack about me having backbone. No war. (And probably not withdrawal either)

That's the article I'm talking about. I didn't get it. Check the link. It's broken.

Hmm, the link works for me, try it again.

Don't worry about the embargo then, but what I mentioned should work. I guess it might have to require that civ to enter your borders a couple of times over several turns, and each time you tell him to leave before he declares war on you. But the AI will definitely declare war once his attitude is sufficiently high enough (meaning he's mad at you).

EDIT: I am almost positive what I outlined will work, but I am unsure to how many times it would take demanding for the AI to leave your lands. If I am mistaken, I am sorry.

 

[UltraMind]

Hmm, the link works for me, try it again.

I tried it again. It still just lands me in a reply mode, with my own post quoted. This make sense because "newreply" is in the URL.

Don't worry about the embargo then, but what I mentioned should work. I guess it might have to require that civ to enter your borders a couple of times over several turns, and each time you tell him to leave before he declares war on you. But the AI will definitely declare war once his attitude is sufficiently high enough (meaning he's mad at you).

EDIT: I am almost positive what I outlined will work, but I am unsure to how many times it would take demanding for the AI to leave your lands. If I am mistaken, I am sorry.

Did you say that these measures to annoy the AI are short term? Does that mean that the annoyance does not build, and that an attempt to annoy him in this way during one term will count for naught in another? Doesn't this mean that trying the same thing over again won't work any better, and that the only reason it would work later is if he was more annoyed by something else, or feeling luckier than before?

 

[Ataxerxes]

That won't be any good, because they won't trust me for an unacceptably long time (who cares that they ran roughshod over treaties before?) I need a way to force a war while staying legally safe. This issue dates back to another issue I was having, where I felt cheated, because no matter how desperate the other civ was, I could only extort a limited number of technologies from them.

So is this in fact a double standard? And the AIs can go stomping all around my 'hood and I can't legally declare war for that? The worker isn't a military unit, but the galleon is, and even when the galleon isn't in my waters, the presence of the worker is enough to allow me to demand that they leave.

This isn't the first time I've heard that if you make threats or unreasonable demands, you can provoke another leader. How true is this? Where does one source this fact?

A war between you and the AI doesn't damage the trust. It just makes them hate you. They won't talk for a while. And what does "remain legally safe" mean? In a war, you're not safe unless you kill them. I think you're putting too much importance on the AI's attitude. They can attack at Gracious, so you're never safe. Apparently the Galleon isn't being considered a military unit. I've run into this aggravation myself.

There is somewhat of a double standard. But it isn't a big deal. Declare war and take the slave worker. IIRC, as long as YOU don't have any of your units in their land, you haven't committed ROP-rape, so the question of trust shouldn't come up.

As most of this thread concerns, you can provoke another leader and make him furious. Whether this means he'll declare war is another matter. Sometimes they just won't. I usually don't worry about the relations hit for declaring war.

I saw your link, but that was about extorting techs. As I read it, this question is different.

 

[Brucha]

A war between you and the AI doesn't damage the trust. It just makes them hate you. They won't talk for a while. And what does "remain legally safe" mean? In a war, you're not safe unless you kill them. I think you're putting too much importance on the AI's attitude. They can attack at Gracious, so you're never safe. Apparently the Galleon isn't being considered a military unit. I've run into this aggravation myself.

Ah, I forgot to mention this, thanks. I am not positive but I agree about naval units in your borders - it never seems to spark a war from demanding them to leave in all the games I've played, only when ground units are concerned (unless the AI was already planning for war).

As most of this thread concerns, you can provoke another leader and make him furious. Whether this means he'll declare war is another matter. Sometimes they just won't. I usually don't worry about the relations hit for declaring war.

I saw your link, but that was about extorting techs. As I read it, this question is different.

Granted I am only going by past playing experience, but it seems that once the AI Attitude is sufficiently high enough, nearly anything will spark a declaration of war from the AI. However, like you mentioned, nothing is for certain. Hopefully, someone with the proper knowledge can clarify this point.

 

[UltraMind]

A war between you and the AI doesn't damage the trust. It just makes them hate you. They won't talk for a while. And what does "remain legally safe" mean?

By "legally safe", I just mean my rep. I'd rather not do anything to lower that, which means going to war w/out me declaring it (since I don't believe this Civ has pretext to war). The "while" for which they hate me is longer than I would have liked, so I want to know how to shorten it. As I understand it, it's shortened by not being the one who declares war.

I saw your link, but that was about extorting techs. As I read it, this question is different.

That's right, the larger issue is extorting all the techs I can. In previous Civs you could bring an AI to their knees and take 'em for everything. Now you can't even demand more than a handful of techs. So the only way I know to handle this is to go through a series of peace treaties, where I extort techs piecemeal.

Edit: but if there's a better way, I'm all ears. I just spent several rounds invading Roman territory and leaving when they demanded. I also kept complaining about their galleon and worker on my land, and the bastards aren't biting. So I guess I'm just going to have to go back, declare war, and after I probably could have discovered 5 or 6 techs on my own in Republic (if I had it), I might get 2 from the Romans

 

[beastie978]

Another trick I've noticed for provoking an AI to the point where they'll declare war is to use the 'perform counter espionage' button. Chances are overwhelming your spy will get caught, making them instantly furious. After a blown spy mission, the chances of them declaring war after you demand they get their people out of your territory seem to be alot higher.

 

[The Omega]

By "legally safe", I just mean my rep. I'd rather not do anything to lower that, which means going to war w/out me declaring it (since I don't believe this Civ has pretext to war). The "while" for which they hate me is longer than I would have liked, so I want to know how to shorten it. As I understand it, it's shortened by not being the one who declares war.

Unless you have units in their territory when war is declared, declaring war on an enemy shouldn't do any significant damage to your rep.
Also, not being the one to declare war doesn't make them hate you for a shorter period of time. What it does to is give your civilization a small happiness boost, which helps with war weariness.

 

[UltraMind]

Unless you have units in their territory when war is declared, declaring war on an enemy shouldn't do any significant damage to your rep.

I'm very surprised to hear this. How do you know that? And how significant?

Also, not being the one to declare war doesn't make them hate you for a shorter period of time. What it does to is give your civilization a small happiness boost, which helps with war weariness.

I'd also like to know where this comes from.

Does all this mean that if you aren't in Republic or Democracy, and you declare war, the only penalty is that the enemy (and his allies) will attack you?

 

[TheOverseer714]

As long as you don't declare while having any numbered deals in place (i.e. wines for 20 gpt, for 17 turns, peace for 14 turns, etc.), you are safe. If they declare on you, no problem.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I'm very surprised to hear this. How do you know that? And how significant?

I'd also like to know where this comes from.

Does all this mean that if you aren't in Republic or Democracy, and you declare war, the only penalty is that the enemy (and his allies) will attack you?

If you have any units in the enemy territory when you have a right of passage with them, that is considered ROP-rape. You take a small diplo hit from everybody and NOBODY will sign open borders with you again.

I'm not sure about the rest of your questions. War Happiness is a know game mechanic although it hasn't been very significant for me.

Last question I don't understand. Whether you are in Republic or Democracy doesn't matter as to how hard they attack you when you declare war. Republic or Demo just means you may have war weariness later on (worse with Demo, Republic usually isn't a problem unless war is epic).

 

[The Omega]

I'm very surprised to hear this. How do you know that? And how significant?

Reputation and relations are two different things. Relations with an AI is how much they like you (cautious, gracious, etc.), while reputation is whether or not people will make deals with you. Reputation isn't displayed in game, but you can tell if it's ruined by the fact that no one, even gracious civs, will trade with you anymore (there might be a utility that lets you see your reputation, but I wouldn't know). Reputation can be ruined by breaking trades (either through a declaration of war, or through the trade route being destroyed), breaking peace treaties (declaring war less than 20 turns after making a peace treaty), or declaring war while you have units in their territory.

As for how I know it, I learned it from this forum. It might be mentioned in the civilopedia, but I'd have to go back and check to find it.

I'd also like to know where this comes from.

Does all this mean that if you aren't in Republic or Democracy, and you declare war, the only penalty is that the enemy (and his allies) will attack you?

That I did learn from reading the civilopedia. You'd be amazed how much information is in it.

Essentially, yes. You will ruin your relationship with that civ, but that can be rebuilt, and honestly, relationship doesn't factor that much into how the AI acts towards you (even gracious civs will attack you if they think they can win).

 

[Abegweit]

To summarize, without the wishy-washy stuff

1. If you want the AI to declare war while it has troops in your borders, make a series of demands until finally he becomes furious. Then demand that he leave. It almost always works, although in cases where your strength is significantly stronger he may back down. Don't worry about trade embargoes. You don't need 'em.

2. Any time the AI declares war on you, you get "war happiness" which is the opposite of war weariness. This lasts until the war is ended. It is subject to the standard things which increase war weariness. As such, it can be very beneficial if someone far away declares war. Leave the phony war alone for thousands of years. The effect is not negligible at all, roughly equivalent to one happy face. And it is cumulative. If multiple AIs declare you get more happiness.

3. If an AI declares war on you, there is normally no effect on your rep. None. The only exception is that, if this causes a trade deal with a third civ to be broken, then your rep is trashed.