Foreign Policy: The CivPlayers League

[2metraninja]

Thanks, Sommers, I never knew that about stacking spies.

But honestly, there was not big other option, neither we have about our future stealing plans, as we are tight on time and we have only very few options for getting the best odds and ratio of stealing techs. I mean if we put just 1 spy per city, we will end up spending way more than the minimum espionage to get given number of beakers stolen. ANd we were and we are in hurry, so we will must rely on mass and numbers. And good luck of course. Next time I am performing stealing, Bistrita

 

[2metraninja]

A short chat we had with Ot4e:

2metraninja: hi
whats up?
Ot4e: hi
2metraninja: you keep quiet lately
Ot4e: I was busy
2metraninja: same here
crazy hectic work before Christmas
Ot4e: we also have got some activity by the end of the year
each time all goes not in the predicted way
2metraninja: as usual


......

*******here we spoke with Ot4e about few other civ games we play in**********
......
2metraninja: maybe putting salt in the wound, but I saw you retreated from WPC lands too?
Ot4e: yep
2metraninja: so I was right all the time that you attacking WPC would be crazy move
Изпратено в 13:33, петък
Ot4e: no it was actually very nice move
Изпратено в 13:35, петък
2metraninja: I cant judge really, I dont know what was your goals and aims. what is sure is for me at least it was bold bordering with reckless and surprising
Ot4e: our goals we achieved
2metraninja: which is a thing on itself
then all is good
Ot4e: the true face of everyone was uncovered
and nice gues from wpc are almost history
2metraninja: oh, I thought we got trough this way earlier with the RB lands dividing?
yeah, WPC are doomed for sure
Ot4e: looks like they are not alone
2metraninja: in the doomed cathegory?
Ot4e: yes
we will follow em
2metraninja: starts to set a trend, who are the others doomed?
you?
Ot4e: till the very hell
2metraninja: lol
Ot4e: yes
just wondering how have you divided our lands too
2metraninja: just like I am talking with MZ, he likes to over-complain
Изпратено в 13:40, петък
2metraninja: enough "sad songs"

In short, he says he is tired from civ and he is expecting that we beat CP next. About him being tired, I cannot comment, but for expecting to beat them next, it is obvious "dust in the eyes" to me.

He knows our main army is moving east towards CivFR. Most likely he knows MZ's army movement too.

 

[2metraninja]

After CP took by surprise our A1 city and continue to amass army on our west and MZ's statement that they cant make any promises what will happen after t240 , I went to see what we can achieve trough diplomacy with CP:

аз: hi
Levchenkov: hi
аз: you are doing well in the war
so far
do you care to make it serious war or we can agree for a NAP?
Levchenkov: We can
аз: ok, let me hear your reasons
Levchenkov: we need help against ottomans
аз: as far as I know you have NAP with them?
Levchenkov: yes, we couldnt allow to have both naps finished for the obvious reasons
аз: the troubles you are making me in our west is working against your desire to contain Ottomans. Because I have to keep half our army at your border, MZ is the one who takes cities from French
Levchenkov: i dont know how does he manipulate frenchies
аз: manipulate? he is not manipulating, he is capturing
but only he
Levchenkov: they are not defending
it is easy
аз: well, they gather
Levchenkov: they could slaughter his stack
аз: they already have good stack
Levchenkov: already
аз: I expect this very soon
Levchenkov: my NAP with poly finishes at turn 240
аз: I know this from MZ
Изпратено в 10:57, неделя
Levchenkov: havent you discussed the common frenchies land distribution between you?
аз: yes, we did
Изпратено в 10:59, неделя
аз: but as we have the gore experience from the RB war, "fair" and "equal" can be quite relative
Levchenkov: ahaha and are you still blaming me in this?
Изпратено в 11:01, неделя
аз: are you running without being chased?
Levchenkov: no I agree that it can be attached to me
аз: what I am saying is that I need to keep my half army at your front and in this time MZ is capturing french cities
Levchenkov: well I tried to offer you alliance against ottos
we cant fight you both
I knew it would be one sided
we still think that you are the stronger enemy in long term race too
аз: interesting why you offer me alliance against MZ then
Levchenkov: may be facing the great empire of ottomans consumed poor frenchies
you will be more cooperative
аз: lol, will I?
you see me as the more reasonable or the more meek in this?
Изпратено в 11:06, неделя
Levchenkov: I dont have a choice
аз: this is brave statement
Levchenkov: MZ didnt agree to cooperate against you
аз: and what are you ready to do in this no-choice for you situation?
maybe I should take his example too
Levchenkov: I dont understand the question
we do what we can
аз: what you are offering me for cooperation against MZ
Изпратено в 11:10, неделя
Levchenkov: I didnt mean to offer you something for this. I thought we could agree that it is in our both priorities
аз: MZ did offered me quite a things
so far I see working with him as a good for our team
Levchenkov: well
аз: to change this I will need serios stimulus or at least argumants
Изпратено в 11:13, неделя
Levchenkov: if you work together you work against us is it clear? even if you dont have our land distributed yet...

the arguments are to eliminate the strongest from opponents you have and remove pressure for now

I must notice that we have expected to gain something from you to release it too
Изпратено в 11:16, неделя
аз: for me it is very simple - you continue to bother me from the west, I halt my advancement in French territory and turn my army back, leaving the bulk of French territory to MZ. you have 3-4 more turns to harass me then the tides of war change drastic with my other half of the army coming and being upgraded to infantries. then we see. maybe I get somewhere in-between deal with MZ to get his word to fight you beside me in exchange of me leaving him the french?
what you gain in this scenario? even stronger MZ
"to work against Ottomans" that you want is quite wide and open in interpretation. what you have more specifical in mind?
Levchenkov: I dont know how can I gain when anyone of you capture maya. It is non-losable lottery for you
аз: having not monstrous MZ?
Levchenkov: you gain, they gain
who cares
аз: but 2 smaller nations, one of them favorable towards you?
Изпратено в 11:22, неделя
Levchenkov: as I said, this "favorable towards us" supposes concrete plan
what do you propose?
аз: it is true that I initiated those talks, so I will put what I want. I want you off of my back, so I can concentrate on French
Изпратено в 11:25, неделя
Levchenkov: I got this
what do you offer me
?
аз: now you tell me what you want
Изпратено в 11:27, неделя
Levchenkov: I havent thought about exact conditions from out side. Right now I see that it must include that we both invade ottomans at 240
Изпратено в 11:31, неделя
аз: oh, dear.. another war in a row
Levchenkov: this is the way to the win
аз: but for who?

Levchenkov: made up with the torn bodies of your enemies
for you of course
you win every war
аз: lol, yeah, I like heroic and brutal stories too
"when you win, you dont know what you lose"
Levchenkov: and are being in war with 2 enemies at the time at least
аз: so far we got ourselves in the bottom GNP-wise with those constant wars
Levchenkov: you got a pocket-sciencist, dont you?
аз: funny why everyone is trying to put is in yet one more war
what is pocket-scientist?
Levchenkov: who brings you everything you need
just for being a good neighbour
аз: ah, I understand
Uciv you mean?
Levchenkov: you didnt require 3 attempts
Изпратено в 11:37, неделя
аз: it must be some French specialty now you will want to pay you for using what you invented first?
Изпратено в 11:38, неделя
Levchenkov: just open me a secret how did you teach them to speak human language
аз: lol, it must be in the love and care aproach?
Levchenkov: aaha
аз: you saw what your approach lead to with them - "we dont like your tone, we prefer to not deal with you anymore"
Изпратено в 11:41, неделя
Levchenkov: did they tell you?
they couldnt follow any agreement
thanks god we are not obliged to deal with them
even if we lose game
аз: we are not obliged either
Levchenkov: this damn dirty game
аз: different people, different deals
you can be proud - I put you on number one in dirtyness
Levchenkov: why?
Изпратено в 11:44, неделя
аз: personal opinion
Levchenkov: I do follow my word
аз: I mean "dirty" more like practical
Levchenkov: and I never concealed my intentions
аз: nowhere I said I consider you dishonest or not trustworthy
Levchenkov: no double face
"we help you, bla-bla-bla" and next turn they give money to your foe
Изпратено в 11:48, неделя
аз: they are like small boys with short pants and wooden swords compared to your political schemes
Изпратено в 11:52, неделя
Levchenkov: and you buy them for fire water
Изпратено в 11:55, неделя
Levchenkov: do you know what am I really proud of?
аз: you have a lot to be proud of in this game particular
Levchenkov: my diplomacy is transparent
аз: ok, tell me what you feel like your best acomplishment
Levchenkov: I am happy that both you and MZ have no illusions that we are friends
if you desire to cooperate against us, so be it
but I never tried to lie or decieve anyone
want to be our friends? the scheme is simple
Изпратено в 11:59, неделя
аз: I honestly think you dont believe in frinedship in competitive games
it is me mostly and to some degree the romantic knight MZ who do this
Изпратено в 12:01, неделя
аз: have to go now, but I will post what we spoke to the team. if total attack on MZ at t240 is what you want from us to let us alone deal with CivFR, I will need the teams opinion.
Изпратено в 12:04, неделя


Прибиране

 

[whb]

While it's hard to assess having been away for a while, and with so little info, it sounds as if MZ are being cagey (at least want to keep the option open of targeting us next), while CP are up for ganging up on MZ.

I would assume CP have also approached MZ about ganging up on us. If MZ has extended their NAP with CP, then it appears Apolyton are receptive to the possibility of ganging up against us when the CivFr war ends.

 

[Sommerswerd]

While it's hard to assess having been away for a while, and with so little info, it sounds as if MZ are being cagey (at least want to keep the option open of targeting us next), while CP are up for ganging up on MZ.

I would assume CP have also approached MZ about ganging up on us. If MZ has extended their NAP with CP, then it appears Apolyton are receptive to the possibility of ganging up against us when the CivFr war ends.

Good assesment.

 

[2metraninja]

Ot4e indeed contacted MZ about signing agreement against us, but MZ declined. This is what MZ told me and later Ot4e confirmed.

Unfortunately we are losing cities to CP, as our army is still moving to the west and CP are producing and deploying army like crazy. Losing cities wont be forever, but it is not pleasant for sure.

This is the chat I had with Ot4e today:

Още ▼
аз: tell me again what was your conditions for signing NAP
Levchenkov: i think I havent told you yet
in general it was mutual actions against ottomans
аз: yes, that was in general
Levchenkov: you promised to think about it
аз: and I did
Изпратено в 14:44, неделя
Levchenkov: if you find it possible to consider it I need a short time to discuss full conditions
if you have something to offer you can state it now
Изпратено в 14:47, неделя
аз: how you see the attack on ottomans?
and why you think it is a good thing?
you know attacking in modern times is very costly
Изпратено в 14:50, неделя
Levchenkov: if your opponent is active yes, but there is nothing impossible
Изпратено в 14:58, неделя
аз: MZ will be active
this is not answering my question. why you think it is a good idea?
Levchenkov: why is it good to attack?
what is an option?
you wanted to conquer all with that army
now it seems we have got a chance
Изпратено в 15:01, неделя
аз: my question was why you think it is good to attack ottomans at t240
Изпратено в 15:21, неделя
Levchenkov: I will say directly, we want to cover our expenses on this war
about ottomans we more need guarantees than real war
but we can discuss this campaign on conditions interesting for both sides
Изпратено в 15:46, неделя
Levchenkov: we want former Egypt's land
Изпратено в 16:09, неделя
аз: sorry, was out of home
Изпратено в 19:50, неделя
аз: which former Egypt land you are talking about you want? Ottoman's part when we declare war to MZ at t240?
Изпратено в 19:57, неделя
Levchenkov: No I guess you dont understand. We are not interested in giving you peace right now for free. Right now we need to gain something from you, from all those preparations. If we just let you got it will put you in too good conditions, for us it is almost equal to giving up.

Making a NAP deal with obligations to attack seems to me to be not appropriate, first of all because it is impossible to formalize conditions and predict all. And finally I dont want to demand it from you because I think it is mutual useful thing and you can gain from allying with us more than we really ask for.
Изпратено в 21:14, неделя
аз: you must be crazy or simply overly arrogant
Levchenkov: dont take it personal
аз: you too
Levchenkov: I am seeking for a way too win. Right now you are too close to it in my mind
we need to be sure it will be somewhat balanced
i dont think that we can gain any from war
or something comparable
but I predict we can both loss too much
may be you want to avoid it
аз: you are already on number 1. please enlighten me how giving you 10 more cities without a fight will make it more balanced?
Levchenkov: and we can gain much more together
oh you mean score?
аз: obviously it is not only score if you have the guts to come and ask 10 cities from us
Изпратено в 21:37, неделя
Levchenkov: nothing you can not afford. You have better cities, much better production and position for the long run. Now we have some techs, probably it brings us score leadership
and I dont think we are talking about 10 cities
Изпратено в 21:40, неделя
Levchenkov: and tell me what are you ready to propose? peace, friendship and bubblegum?
аз: you robbed us in the land division after the RB war and now you want to finish your deed by taking it all threatening us with army?
do you think you will get away with this?
Levchenkov: I never meant to threaten you by any
аз: I can offer you chance to win the game
IF* I decide to take you down with me, all hope for you is lost
simple
I see my own chances as far number 3 pretender for the win
so, not much to lose on my side
Изпратено в 21:43, неделя
Levchenkov: our chances for the win blured a while ago
i dont see how is it possible
if we just sign NAP
tell me
аз: well, then we can call the game and anounce MZ winner, as I wont give you 10 cities without a fight
Изпратено в 21:45, неделя
Levchenkov: You asked for a price for the peace, right? I named the one. No threats.

You can say your counter-proposal, I've neveer discovered it from your speech.
I see you as number 1 team right now
even if we are just 3
аз: oh, thanks for the compliment, but 100 kilos bearded man is not so easy to fall for it like schoolgirl
Levchenkov: with uciv working on you directly you can possibly beat us both with MZ
аз: Uciv have their own agenda
Levchenkov: doesnt look like this
аз: they are not our minion or something
oh, come on, tell me about minions. how is your minion CivFR lately?
Levchenkov: nice that you ask
right now they have changed masters
and giving goods to you and MZ
аз: do they?
Levchenkov: more to MZ I admit
аз: oh, I thought you are about to say something surprising
so you know - minions - you cant rely on them
Levchenkov: i wish they disappear like wpc
аз: wpc did quite a bang before they disappear
Levchenkov: wpc did better than civfr
аз: you must be still licking your ego wounds
well, who knows, CIvFR might show themselves at some point
Levchenkov: doesnt make me proud of you
Изпратено в 21:55, неделя
аз: it is not one way
Изпратено в 21:56, неделя
аз: dont play it pinched maid please, CivFR were doing all you needed and wanted and each time you were explaining how this is simply a happy coincidence, now you have the mouth to complain about Uciv
Изпратено в 22:00, неделя
аз: as for price and negotiations for NAP between us, the last time we spoke it was to not cooperate with MZ at t240, but with you and today it becomes to give you 10 cities? I think you are wrong somewhere in your ideas
Изпратено в 22:04, неделя
Levchenkov: i dont complain about uciv, just saying you are doing fine with them. Cant say same about us and civfr
i need to go now
ttyl
good nite
аз: ok, gn
Изпратено в 22:38, неделя


Прибиране

I was hoping we can get NAP from him for future promises, but he have changed his mind lately as it seems, or his relatively easy wins and my seemingly passiveness have given him bravery.