Fortresses

Why would it have a withdrawal chance at all ? It's not like they would be likely to regroup and strike again after being dispersed. Or if they did, that could as well be represented by the rising of a new militia unit.
 
I would say they were planning on running away to begin with. I would assume that is the same idea with catapults having an 80% withdrawal rate cause those should be way too slow to retreat otherwise.

When militia are caught off guard and were the ones being attacked, then the group would be fully dispersed since they probably were not ready to run then.

Would that explanation be reasonable?
 
>>>I would say they were planning on running away to begin with. I would assume that is the same idea with catapults having an 80% withdrawal rate cause those should be way too slow to retreat otherwise.<<<

That was pretty much my thinking. An abstract way to convey the effect of undisciplined units.

Perhaps a way to better signify a rout rather than a fighting retreat might be to give them a promotion that prevents any unit that withdrew from attacking on the following turn and is considered to have a strength of zero if attacked.

Call it 'Disorganised' perhaps.

...

An idea just occured to me. Would it be interesting and/ or playable for certain units (perhaps most of the tier ones and some tier twos) to have a promotion called 'Green' that gave them a high chance to withdraw, but provided the penalties mentioned above? The promotion would be removed from the unit upon reaching level two or three.

Any unit that required a training camp or some such to build would lose this negative promotion at level two (which should mean their first battle will do the trick in FfH), simulating the arduous training the unit went through in preparing for the rigours of combat, whereas the basic warrior unit would not lose it's status until level three.
 
And why not made the fort being a unit, having some of the ideas in this thread (too long to read all, sorry), but you can kill it like other unit. In fact, they are not real unit, but the troops inside are.

So worker (or other unit) build (spawn) it, they are just like guardian vines, but they can give skirmish/defense bonus/effect area promotions to units in the stack or something like that
 
The fort as a unit, that is an interesting idea. Give it a high maintenance cost etc. A list of reasonable promotions. Towers etc. The higher its level the more it costs to maintain. Interesting idea, i like it.
 
On withdrawing, doesnt a unit have to have a free move point to utilize witdraw? So would militia be used mostly to just hold ground?
 
Ok, I'll now put my thought forward about what I think is best for Forts.

They have a defensive bonus, but the also have to other abilities.
1st) They grant all units stationed there the city garrision ability
2nd) They grant any unit stationed there a +50% to +75% withdraw chance.
3rd) They grant all nice surrounding tiles the ability of +1 movement cost. This would get around the lack of ZOC problem, in that the enermy would find it harder to just stroll past and not get attacked from the fort.

Now, these forts do cost money. For every unit in a fort, it counts as two units for upkeep cost.
The fort themselves also cost a gold unpkeep per turn (for supplies & repairs)

I think this should give a good fort feel, maybe then a fort can be upgraded in some ways once other techs have been learnt.
 
chocmushroom said:
They have a defensive bonus, but the also have to other abilities.
1st) They grant all units stationed there the city garrision ability
2nd) They grant any unit stationed there a +50% to +75% withdraw chance.
3rd) They grant all nice surrounding tiles the ability of +1 movement cost. This would get around the lack of ZOC problem, in that the enermy would find it harder to just stroll past and not get attacked from the fort.

Now, these forts do cost money. For every unit in a fort, it counts as two units for upkeep cost.
The fort themselves also cost a gold unpkeep per turn (for supplies & repairs)

Sounds good to me.
 
There is a very good mod for forts (for vanilla civ4) called Realfort, also part of the big Sevomod package. It is very nice, as they are more useful at all techs, and get more so as you advance.
 
tyrantpimp said:
The fort as a unit, that is an interesting idea. Give it a high maintenance cost etc. A list of reasonable promotions. Towers etc. The higher its level the more it costs to maintain. Interesting idea, i like it.
Hmm.
Forts are interesting.
I think this modeling is best. It is complex and would require much SDK work, but I feel that it simulates sieges very accurately.
Treat forts as units. Buildable in cities would be the non-combat "architect". These cost 100 shields and have the "build fort" ability (in anyone's (or no one's) territory) which destroys them.
These forts are immobile. (duh)
Forts are also nearly useless all by themselves, because they start out with strength 0 and always automatically defend the tile (note a fort's defensive capacity starts as 1).
But forts with units in (on) them act like civ3 armies. Whenever a fort is attacked, the strongest 2 (this number is the defensive capacity of a fort, and it changes through various things) of them have their base strength added to the base fort's strength for the battle. If the fort wins the battle then any received damage is divided among the two strong units. The experience is divided among the two defenders. If the fort loses the battle then the two strong units are reduced to 10% hp, the fort's hp is reduced by 1/2, and the defensive capacity of the fort is reduced by 1. The defensive capacity is the number of strong units whose strength is added to its for defense. If the defensive capacity would be reduced to 0, instead the fort itself is destroyed.
Each fort costs one maintenance a turn for each unit in a fort, with double maintenance being paid for each unit above the defensive capacity.
So how does defensive capacity increase?
Various technologies allow your forts to be upgraded. These upgrade can only be done by building another architect and bringing him to the fort. The various upgrades include--
+1 defensive capacity
+1 base fort strength (for forts with small garrison that want to be effective anyways)
+1 level. Yes, forts level up not through combat, but through architects. The available promotions are combat I-V, shock I, cover I, drill I-IV, and sentry I-III.

Technological progression of forts:
Architects allowed with Construction: Basic fort-0 strength, 1 defensive capacity, max level 1
Military strategy: Level max +1
Engineering: Max capacity +1, max base strength +1
Blasting powder: max base strength +2
Machinery: Max capacity +1
Metal casting: Level max +2

Notes--Building a fort and every subsequent upgrade removes the improvement/forest in a square, but in the meantime the square can be reimproved without harming the fort.

--Siege weapons get +100% withdrawal, +100% strength, and +100% collateral damage when attacking forts. This means that they can bombard with impunity and damage the units in it moderately. Otherwise forts would be too hard to take.

--A fort's base strength will heal as though it were a normal unit. The only way to restore a reduced defensive capacity is an engineer however.

--Totally undefended forts are captured, not destroyed.

So how will sieges of forts function?
Example scenario:
My basic fort is defended by 2 warriors, against 4 warriors.
First warrior attacks, loses to terrain advantage.
Next warrior attacks, same thing.
Now both defenders are injured.
3rd warrior attacks, wins the battle. Instead of killing the defender, the fort is destroyed, and the defender is hurt.
4th warrior attacks, killing the other injured warrior.
So instead of both defenders dying, only one does.

But higher level forts really swing the tide of the battle:
8 axemen attacking a 2 capacity, level 1, strength 1 fort, defended by 4 axemen.
First axeman attacks, loses horribly (4 vs 9). 2 defenders injured slightly
Second axeman attacks, loses (4 vs 9). other 2 defenders injured slightly
Third axeman attacks, loses (4 vs ~7). 2 defenders injured
Fourth axeman attacks, loses same way
Fifth axeman attacks, loses (4 vs ~5). 2 defenders injured
Sixth axeman attacks, loses same way.
Seventh axeman attacks, wins (4 vs ~4). 2 defenders nearly killed, fort strength reduced to .5, fort capacity reduced to 1.
Eight axeman attacks, wins (4 vs ~2). 1 defender nearly killed, fort destroyed.

So this fairly low level fort helped half as many units defend without dying, although they all were injured. This also shows the necessity of mass assaults on forts before the units (and fort) have a chance to heal.

This would not be too hard to teach the ai to use IMO, just code when to build forts (easy), how much to garrison in them (easy), and how to attack them (mass assault, not too hard)

Okay, so now I've explained how these forts accurately show sieges, but how do they protect the countryside without a ZoC?
1. Terrain improvements can be built "on" forts, allowing them to protect them during times of war.
2. Attacking a neighboring stack and then retreating into a well defended fortress is a way of attacking with impunity.
3. Mages in fortress can attack nearby units with spells, or even defend a fortress entirely alone through summons. Summoning a skeleton to defend the fortress and then fireballing nearby enemies is very safe and deadly.
3. Two strong forts can between them create a bottleneck where enemies can be attacked at will. Or you can just make giant (and expensive) walls of forts around your border with an enemy.
4. Forts can now be offensive weapons. Bring 10 architects with a small invasion force and set them up outside of their capital. They’ll have to besiege you to get you out of their lands.

*out of energy now*
 
If the AI can really get taught to use this system well it would be fantastic.

Some more ideas (when you are going for these big SDK changes):

- Architects can be sacrificed to build sentry towers. Immobile units with the sentry promotion. Strength 0, never defend. When an enemy unit moves into a tile with a sentry tower it is destroyed.

- Dwarven Architects. Cost less hammers and start with the mobility I promotion.
 
frozen-vomit said:
- Architects can be sacrificed to build sentry towers. Immobile units with the sentry promotion. Strength 0, never defend. When an enemy unit moves into a tile with a sentry tower it is destroyed.
maybe, i guess we'll add in sentry towers later if the forts proves feasable. I for one just don't want to confuse the architect using ai.
- Dwarven Architects. Cost less hammers and start with the mobility I promotion.
Well i presume we'll do lots of race specific fiddling (such as undermining), but right now I'm just working on the concept and the mechanic.

Some revisions to my earlier post--
myself said:
--Siege weapons get +100% withdrawal, +100% strength, and +100% collateral damage when attacking forts. This means that they can bombard with impunity and damage the units in it moderately. Otherwise forts would be too hard to take.
I realize that this is kind of difficult to do. Perhaps its simpler to do it this way: Siege weapons next to forts can "bombard fort". This gives the fort a negative promotion that gives -x% (x is the siege weapon's bombard value). this negative promotion is transferred to the combined defensive value (fort strength + strength of strongest unit(s)). The promotion wears off at the end of the defender's next turn, but even so a couple of siege weapons can make a fort much easier to take.

myself said:
Each fort costs one maintenance a turn for each unit in a fort, with double maintenance being paid for each unit above the defensive capacity.
I'm changing the maintenance system a little:
One maintenance is paid for each fort where the number of units in it is less than or equal to the defensive capacity. Then one maintenance is paid for each unit above the defensive capacity. Summoned units are not counted. (so 5 units in 3 capacity fort= 3 maintenance.) This makes forts more afforable and still encourages you not to have more than the defensive capacity.

I also want to point out that my system shows what happens when the wall is breached (attackers win a battle): every subsequent battle is significantly easier.

myself said:
--A fort's base strength will heal as though it were a normal unit. The only way to restore a reduced defensive capacity is an engineer however.
I change this again. A fort's defensive capacity will also heal like the hp of a fort/unit. However, it will heal at a slower pace.

Architect's onhand during a battle also have the opportunity to "repair" the fort, restoring its defensive capacity and strength back to pre-battle condition.
 
Keldan said:
And why not made the fort being a unit, having some of the ideas in this thread (too long to read all, sorry), but you can kill it like other unit. In fact, they are not real unit, but the troops inside are.

So worker (or other unit) build (spawn) it, they are just like guardian vines, but they can give skirmish/defense bonus/effect area promotions to units in the stack or something like that

You just gave me an idea. The Chess mod, lol.
 
I think that my idea will simulate more accurate sieges, and is actually easier for the ai to use. Harder to code of course.

NOTE: In my above posts I forgot to mention that only one fortress in allowed per square. Just making a note of it.
 
There is a big risk of getting overcomplicated with forts, and i think we may be running into that situation now.

Forts should be extreamly basic and provide a very simple function that is either very useful, or very NOT, depending on the situation.

Personally a bonus to defence, and a simple ZOC would suffice. Getting the AI to understand it strikes me as odd, since the CIV2 AI understood it fine, what happened to the AI that it stopped finding Forts useful?

Anyway, im just issuing a call for simplicity in forts, if they're to be (and they should) implemented as a reasonable function.
-Qes
 
Ja, I guess that QES is right. Simple forts like that would be nice.

Turthfully the thing I want to see is the ability for siege weapons to bombard forts and lower their defense. This way a fort can give a lot of defense (which increases with techs), but not be totally untakeable if need be.
 
My thought on forts is that it should be a lone improvement (so the need to spam them isn't necessary) that gives simple bonuses (complicated isn't usually better and is harder to implement). The purpose of the fort is that it should provide a strongpoint that an enemy can't easily ignore while also serving as a safepoint for your units. You could accomplish this with a ZOC but that may become a problem for AIs, would invite spamming them every 3 tiles, could be exploited depending on how ZOC is implemented, and may be hard to implement.

My suggestion is to give units stationed in forts bonuses and of course a defensive bonus. The defensive bonuses make it harder to attack that single tile. This of course suffers from the CIV4 vanilla problem of units just running past it unless you luck out with a one tile chokepoint. Forts should also increase the healing rate of stationed units or provide some other incentive for units to stop/be stationed at a fort. Temporary bonuses given to units would help forts become a presence that threatens nearby opponents.

Suggestions for fort:
Defensive bonus for units if attacked head on.

Increases HP recovery of units stationed in the fort. (Important as it provides an incentive for military units to rest at a fort. Armies would often rest in a city or a fort, not a random forest or jungle.)

Provides a temporary Haste and/or March for units starting their turn in the fort. (Provides extra mobility for military units in the fort. This lets stationed units threaten the area around it moreso then a random unit on sentry.)

Provides a temporary generic bonuses like Drill, Flanking, or Strength increases for units starting their turn in the fort. (Optional bonus but it helps military units further threaten the area around it. Increased withdraw chance would be the most realistic.)

Provides an increase of ranged spells by one tile for units starting their turn in the fort. (Optional and potentially abusive but I like the idea of a mage stationed in a fort to artillery passing enemies.)

Provides sight into fog of war and/or reveals hidden units. (Very optional. I'm just looking for random bonuses now)

So basically a fort would act like a base of operations where a stack of units could threaten passing enemies while providing a rest area for units if a city isn't available.
 
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