Founding Cristianity Immortal

[civtilidy]

Any tips on how to found cristianity on immortal?
My problem is im always 1-5 damn turns away
My strategy is to build stonehenge-priest-bulb
Tech: mysticism-bw-(fishing if coastal)-agr(if foodresource)-tw-pottery-then going down religous path and writing
I wonder if theres any of those techs I can cut down on to speed up the bulbing? without
pottery theres no commerce so economy stalls (except gold/gems but want it to be a reliable strategy independent of those)
Also is there any specific techs this very early that is good to trade?
the question is actually how to get writing, meditation,priesthood,mono asap with any means.

The reason i want to found crist is because no matter condition (isolated, no religion) I want to be assured of religion and AP hammers

 

[Gwynnja]

Use the oracle

 

[Gumbolt]

Philosophy would be better to go for a religion??? Why build Ap just for hammers??? It's nearly 600 hammers to build anyway?

Oh course xtian does open up paper/edu route.

My gut is founding a religion does not define an isolated game. A decent cottage capital and reaching the Ai quicker will.

 

[blunderwonder]

On Imm, your best best for founding a religion is CoL with oracle, this will eventually give you the great preist, and you can bulb theo if you want to.. but with people like hatty or justinian, etc they often go right for it. Either way, with chops etc you might still be able to build it before them.


On Imm, the only times ive ever built the AP were in games where i took a shrine in a HA rush, and since the religion was already in all my cities because of izzy, i didnt want to spread a new one, + having the AP vote is nice. The other was in a game where I oracled CoL, and managed to convert 2 people into my religion early, 20ish cities by 1AD + shrine, after you convert them they usually spread it themselves, so i built the ap because it would have taken too long to spread anoter around to all my cities. On Imm, its pretty unlikely that you can oracle theo, itd be like oracling CS, youd have to be pretty lucky.

The ap religion does matter though, the temples and monastaries are great price for the build, especially if you capture UoS or the other one. Votes in the ap can be very helpful for certain things, and those hammers and science pay off pretty quickly.

 

[civtilidy]

Gwynna: impossible without loads of commerceresource
Gumbolt: investing 600hammers (with ind Bismarck) to get 4hammers/junkpilecity and dominate AP votes? I take the deal
Yeah it opens paper so great start for a RE. This is what makes me win my games by outproducing AI
Blunderwonder: Oracle is too unreliable as its built too early. There are many critical workertechs that Its suicide not to take them. Also i want religion most for APhammers and deny it to most AI so its best to have it built with my own religion rather than a widerspread one.
edit: you right thats its a way to achieve the same thing by founding conf and bulb theo to build AP if theres still time
A RE makes cityspam 2tiles apart very,very,very powerful.
Any suggestions about techtrading to speed up the bulb?

 

[elitetroops]

civtilidy, I'm a bit confused. You say you always lose Christianity by a few turns on immortal and at the same time you say that winning Christianity and the AP is how you win your games... Does this mean that you used to win your games this way on lower levels, but can't make it work on immortal? Or does it just mean that the only times you win is the few times you make this strategy work?

In either case, you are asking the wrong question. Civ is not a game about winning any religion, oracle, lib or whatever. Civ is about playing the map and the situation. Every map calls for different play. The question is not how to win Christianity and get the AP, the question is when you should even consider that play. Obviously you have put some effort into working out a somewhat effective strategy that uses the AP, now put the same effort into some different strategies and learn how to apply these in different situations. Then you will be crushing immortal with or without religious help.

I noticed in your OP that you say tech part starts with mysticism. That's mostly a very bad play. Worker techs first.

 

[blunderwonder]

oracle is reliable on IMM 90% of the time, and yes you have to skip some worker techs but thats sort of the point of going for oracle, you get a powerful early tech, all you need is myst/medit/priesthoood -> goes into writing, this is easy to do if you skip pottery, sometimes its worthwhile to tech BW first, but usually its better to grab mining at most. you do skip worker techs, but not very important ones.

failing at oracle usually happens because of being greedy, or deciding too late to go for it. You dont need marble usually because it takes alot of turns to tech, and then another 8 turns to hook it up if you only have 1 worker.

Im sure most good players know when its possible, though its not something you can always go for like on lower levels.

The great part about getting it though is that you keep other AI's away from it, and it keeps them smaller for awhile as the ai will spam CHs, and if they go for it because of the religion, they'll often bulb philo too, causing problems with a lib race/taj and taking techs that could of easily been monopoly techs for you. I imagine it keeps them away from CS bit longer as well, but thats another thing.

also, AP is only 400 hammers, and is very doable with OR/forge or industrious. AP temples/monastaries are a great hammer investment, and not having to wait and wait for the right religions etc is nice.

also, if your plan is to build the AP, you may as well go for oracle, you wont lose much even if you failgold it since you were going to need those techs anyway.

 

[civtilidy]

elitetroops: to clarify I have jumped from marathon to normal speed. marathon immortal is a peace of cake with this strategy and i always manage to pull it off somehow but not on normal even though things are supposed to scale (except movement). What you say is very true for civ but I started this thread for tips for this specific strategy.
I start with mysticism because its the only way to build stonehenge. As bismarck i also have mining

Bulnderwonder: How do you keep economy, expansion and tech going without cottages? Ofc you can trade the powerful techs but thats not awlways possible if your almost isolated or Ai dont go alphabet early

I will try the oracle if the circumstances are good enough

 

[Gumbolt]

Well playing marathan would give you a huge advantage over the AI. The Ai would be much slower to key techs like feudalism.

The fact that an ind leader gives you a 50% boost on AP is not a great strategy for this game. I would hope you play not just IND leaders. Otherwise why play at immortal level???

Why are you so worried about AP votes??? On a good game you can capture the Ap or the Ai will spread religion to your cities. If you settle decent cities production should not be an issue. My point was you are spending 600 early hammers on a costly building. You are then using this as a main strategy for all your games.

Currency or COL would offer much more early on than the AP. Extra trade routes or chance to bulb deep running more scientists.

Oracle for xtian is an option but you still have to tech mono and all the early religious techs to do this. Meaning you are not going for worker/economy techs.

I don't get this strategy. I think maybe it works on marathan but normal is a much more competitive game for the AI.

 

[Gumbolt]

Try posting a game and let's see how the strategy works. A starting immortal save with (No huts or events) would be good.

 

[drewisfat]

"Oracle is too unreliable as its built too early. There are many critical workertechs"
So instead you tech myst right away and build stonehenge

Don't ask for advice on how to do a strategy while simultaneously saying it's a necessary strategy and that oracle "is suicide".

 

[NihilZero]

If you really want christianity, the simplest plan is to check the "choose religions" option and make sure there's no Isa, Justy, or Charlie on the map. But that's probably not the answer you're after.

A more helpful answer would be to suggest that Stonehenge and the AP are very unnecessary wonders. Religions and religious wonders are not worth pursuing, generally. If you happen to get one from CoL or Philosophy, then fine, but unless you have a somewhat esoteric strategy in mind (nothing wrong with that, if it works) then I wouldn't bother.

AP hammers are okay, not amazing. On normal speed a temple with AP hammers takes 40 turns to pay for itself. Monasteries are a little better, but they obsolete. Religious wonders can be fun if you're spiritual and get cheap temples, but if not there are much more efficient uses for the hammers.

 

[elitetroops]

Tech: mysticism-bw-(fishing if coastal)-agr(if foodresource)-tw-pottery-then going down religous path and writing

If you always open with myst and BW before food techs (and prioritize fishing over AG ), then it is no wonder that you find it hard to Oracle Theo. Food is the most important resource for early growth and development. Unless you have a double deer start, you are slowing down progress a lot by avoiding food for so long.

Early in the game very few wonders are worth building. I generally don't consider SH or AP among those. Especially not AP, because the benefits you get from building it, you can also get even if someone else builds it. Stonehenge is mostly better captured than built.

 

[Gumbolt]

SH can be useful for fail gold on higher levels. Pends on your strategy I guess.

If OP is suggesting to tech religious tech before food techs then that will explain a lot of his issues.

Having a strategy if it works is good. Ignoring the basics such as working nearby food resources first is wrong. Why tech towaord Mystism if you need agriculture for a farm or have 10-20 forest that you can't chop for 30-40 turns.

Every map requires a different start/ strategy. This is why people are still playing the game many years on.

 

[civtilidy]

If you always open with myst and BW before food techs (and prioritize fishing over AG ), then it is no wonder that you find it hard to Oracle Theo. Food is the most important resource for early growth and development. Unless you have a double deer start, you are slowing down progress a lot by avoiding food for so long.

Early in the game very few wonders are worth building. I generally don't consider SH or AP among those. Especially not AP, because the benefits you get from building it, you can also get even if someone else builds it. Stonehenge is mostly better captured than built.

Thats another great dilemma, BW or foodtech? I mean what might give most production? with a few workers the forest might give more but they go away when chopped but theres also the snowball effect of getting a settler out earlier by chopping... I really have problems deciding here, usually go BW first for barbdefence also but how do you reason with a start of example 2corn and 8forests?

 

[civtilidy]

SH can be useful for fail gold on higher levels. Pends on your strategy I guess.

If OP is suggesting to tech religious tech before food techs then that will explain a lot of his issues.

Having a strategy if it works is good. Ignoring the basics such as working nearby food resources first is wrong. Why tech towaord Mystism if you need agriculture for a farm or have 10-20 forest that you can't chop for 30-40 turns.

Every map requires a different start/ strategy. This is why people are still playing the game many years on.

The only religious tech i do before workertechs is myst. The reason I sacrifice early optimization for stonehenge is becuase if the strategy works its likely worth it. Expansion in my games is often limited by commerce so some less productionoptimization usually dont hurt too much and I often catch up with cityspam.

 

[civtilidy]

If you really want christianity, the simplest plan is to check the "choose religions" option and make sure there's no Isa, Justy, or Charlie on the map. But that's probably not the answer you're after.

A more helpful answer would be to suggest that Stonehenge and the AP are very unnecessary wonders. Religions and religious wonders are not worth pursuing, generally. If you happen to get one from CoL or Philosophy, then fine, but unless you have a somewhat esoteric strategy in mind (nothing wrong with that, if it works) then I wouldn't bother.

AP hammers are okay, not amazing. On normal speed a temple with AP hammers takes 40 turns to pay for itself. Monasteries are a little better, but they obsolete. Religious wonders can be fun if you're spiritual and get cheap temples, but if not there are much more efficient uses for the hammers.

Good suggestion but little hard to pull off as Bismarck
My goal is to later get UoS and SM for a full RE combined with cityspam. Then I think they are powerful but without cityspam they are probably not.

 

[civtilidy]

"Oracle is too unreliable as its built too early. There are many critical workertechs"
So instead you tech myst right away and build stonehenge

Don't ask for advice on how to do a strategy while simultaneously saying it's a necessary strategy and that oracle "is suicide".

I agree stonehenge is also hampering early growth but mysticism is only 1 tech. The prophet from oracle will come too late for bulb and theres likely no time to research witing and mono before building oracle. This would need a great research effort right away delaying workertechs way too much. I must be allowed to criticize advices so we can come to a good solution.

 

[elitetroops]

I really have problems deciding here, usually go BW first for barbdefence also but how do you reason with a start of example 2corn and 8forests?

I reason that 2 corn means Agriculture first. No question about it. With the whipping power from double corn, I would probably not need any early chops and save the forests until I have math.

 

[civtilidy]

is it more powerful to build workers/settlers by building something to grow and then switch to whip. Compared to building them from the foodsurplus? I it also more powerful to whip than working mines?