Founding religions doing more harm than good on Emperor

[Paeanblack]

... made me wonder whether the "religious nut" isn't in most cases the player who pursues religions as part of his/her strategy, burning beakers on (often chancy and unsucessful) religion grabs, throwing good shields after bad in actively shaping a religious landscape that, in the majority of cases, could be exploited to the same effect by just playing along with the game as it takes shape by itself.

By religious nut, I mean the AIs like Izzy, Monty, Gandhi, etc, who will switch to whatever religion first enters their borders and try to convert world, while still trying to found a religion themselves. If you deny them one of the early religions, you've made their life alot harder.

If you are playing with random personalities, you can still get some idea of what opponents are researching which pre-Alphabet techs by paying close attention to the land improvements they are able to build, how many beakers they are generating, and by looking at your own research costs, which will drop if you have met an opponent who has a particular tech.

Here's a question: Would you recommend that a player who is learning to play successfully on Emperor (standard size map and # of opponents) actively pursue religions to improve his chances at winning?

Reason I ask (and posted this) is that part of my learning process for Emperor has been to ditch founding religions, and I've never looked back.

I wouldn't say actively pursue religion, but keep an open mind. Used effectively religions and their civics can replace obelisks (or Stonehenge), libraries, markets, banks, theaters, etc in many cities, all of which means many more spare hammers to throw troops at opponents. In the hands of a human, a religion will spread faster and further than one founded by the AI, simply because a player can co-opt other AIs into helping.

There will be more situations than you think where an early religion is a stellar move. Don't ignore the opportunities.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I don't like dawdling for Code of Laws, Theology and Philosophy. If I found Confucianism, Christianity or Taoism, I'll take it, but I just take the holy city from an opponent if I get beat to them, I'll just invade and take them out.

 

[Jorunkun]

Founding a religion is a bloody hoot on emperor level. If you spread it around, get a religious "team" on your side, and watch a holy war rage around the world. If you play your diplomatic cards right, you won't be the one going to war - your religious buddies will be.

I see the advantage in this, but you don't need to FOUND the religion to pull it off. Ganging up for a religious war only makes sense if you have 2 or more neighbours, and chances are one of them will get the religion and you can then spread it. Yes, you have less influence over the timing (as it needs to spread to you first), but then if you found it yourself, you need to invest turns into spreading it, so I think the net result isn't that different.

 

[OceansEleven]

It helps a lot. If you spread it, that is. You get a great deal of gold, which is always important. If it is spread through out a lot of cities, you can keep track of your enemies. Helps your relationship *no brainer*. Kills it too *no brainer*.

I like finding religions. But it is very useful to go straight for Bronze Working, what I just did. I wasn't able to find a religion... yet, but oh well. If I conquer one, it'll be good. I love chopping. Chopped Stonge Henge a bit earlier. Was chooping Pyramids, but I lost it. Still got 191 gold. And instead of worrying of having to build missionaries, you just build your military.

Your neighbors will get pissed off at you though, and you won't have as much gold coming in. But it shouldn't matter unless you have a lot of cottages going around, and stuff.

 

[Jorunkun]

So I tried to take some of the well intended advice for religion on board and played around with spiritual civ starts today, but I can't say I've seen the light.

I will be the first to admit that I am a bit stuck on the no-wonders/no religion formula for getting rolling on Emperor. My priorities are usually BW asap, then on to writing, alphabet if I have more than one neighbour. I'll throw in AH if no bronze is near, one or two worker techs/fishing and wheel, mysticism for obelisks if necessary, and usually get to writing via pottery.

What attracts me to this is the flexibility and reliability: You can leverage an early worker to the max, get a settler out quickly, throw in military to keep you safe and relibaly get a tech lead after alphabet is researched. The pacing of tech and growth interlocks so nicely.

Stuffing around with religion I always feel like I am tripping up and coming up short compared to where I could be with a more conservative start. Yeah, the benefits are nice - faster cultural expansion, no need for obelisks, monasteries and temples ... but the more I prioritise these, the more I miss my versatile workers and more useful basic units and buildings. It just feels really ineffective.

Most of all, sending out missionaries and pruning a priest for a shrine seems a reeeeeally long shot investment. Maybe I need to play longer to see it bear fruit, but frankly, I don't feel like I'm missing out if I let the AI get the religious game started.

Also, I still maintain that there is no reliable benefit from founding religion when it comes to diplomacy and alliance building. The stars need to align really well for you to be able to spread your early religion and get your neighbour(s) in an alliance against a third party - same likelyhood as in a non-religious game, I'd say.

Guess I'll stay an unwashed heathen. Any rate, thanks for all the replies, and, like, God bless.

J.

 

[Jorunkun]

I've always attempted to found 1-2 religions on Emperor, but I never thought that it might lead to less AI fragmentation, since there are fewer other religions to go around.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is the key benefit of NOT founding religions. Take a look at the current GOTM, an emperor continents game - lots of examples of people going for early religion, only to find the AI on the other continent in celestial harmony as a result.

J.

 

[dh_epic]

I totally agree that founding a religion at emperor is a waste of resources. Seems like at the higher levels, you're better off declaring war, or focusing on other things and adapting to the AI's diplomatic situation.

 

[Hey Joni]

The thing is that wasting research and hammers on religion does not cripple the buffed-up AI. Spending them on war stuff does!

 

[aelf]

I'm trying to do both in my current Emperor Challenge game: stifle the AI with war and found + take advantage of religions. I guess it's only really impractical on Immortal or Deity. Maybe it can still be done on Immortal.

 

[uberfish]

Researching one tech at the beginning of the game to try and found a religion if you start with Mysticism isn't exactly going to slow your development much, and in return you get the benefit of an early +1 happiness in your capital (a measurable advantage either for whipping or growing cottages) and free scouting info even if you do NOTHING except let the religion spread passively.

I usually research meditation or polytheism first if starting with mysticism, even at the highest difficulty levels.

 

[yavoon]

Researching one tech at the beginning of the game to try and found a religion if you start with Mysticism isn't exactly going to slow your development much, and in return you get the benefit of an early +1 happiness in your capital (a measurable advantage either for whipping or growing cottages) and free scouting info even if you do NOTHING except let the religion spread passively.

I usually research meditation or polytheism first if starting with mysticism, even at the highest difficulty levels.

do u eat it if u fail to get the religion? thats what I wanna know about all the ppl who found religions on emperor+ is do they actually continue playing if they fail.

 

[uberfish]

Yeah, I just play on as normal even if I don't get the religion. Like I said, it doesn't slow me down much to research one cheap tech.

 

[ecp]

A nice change would be to give the founder of the religion extra bonus relations with other civs under the same religion. (Sorry if that's been mentioned). There's really no difference in relations between you going after irrelevent techs, investing in missionaries, and risking religious war and just jumping on the religious bandwagon.

 

[Jorunkun]

Researching one tech at the beginning of the game to try and found a religion if you start with Mysticism isn't exactly going to slow your development much, and in return you get the benefit of an early +1 happiness in your capital (a measurable advantage either for whipping or growing cottages) and free scouting info even if you do NOTHING except let the religion spread passively.

I usually research meditation or polytheism first if starting with mysticism, even at the highest difficulty levels.

Obviously, the setback isn't much - but it does ad up. If you go worker first and get the right tech to get him busy instead of religion, you will come out a few percentage points better in research, growth, prod, depending on what your tiles are giving you. Means you get a settler out earlier, get to bw more quickly etc ...

But my main point was not so much the setback due to tech, but rather the low value of what follows if you found religion and try to do something with it. My perception is that it`s just way too much risk and hassle to found and spread your own religion rather than just jump on the bandwagon and conquer the shrine later.

But hey, to each his own, and appreciate all the arguments in favor.

Cheers,

J,

 

[Andraeianus I]

Irrespective of the civ I am playing and it's starting techs I nearly always try a shot at at Hinduism (and if failed even Judaism or Code of Laws via the Oracle). The reason is simple: the alternative would be worker techs. But for this you need a worker. And at higher levels it is no use to build improvements early on as the barbarians will destroy them. So better first concentrate on the land grap (by cities and culture (early religion + monuments for which you need mysticism anyway) and later on concentrate on improving production (worker techs).

For instance with Churchill I go:
Mysticism->Polytheism->Sailing (spreads the religion+connects your towns!)->Hunting->Archery->worker techs.

Holy cities are very nice not only for its mid/late game money production but also for the early cultural production. In no time you have a level 3 cultural city and can dominate a large area.

Sometimes I go even further and research Masonry+Monotheism straight after Polytheism if am close to marble and or stone. This way you have at least the possibility of a cultural victory.

In my last game with Churchill on emperor this gave me Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity (via the Oracle) and a lot of early wonders... I would have won a cultural victory if I hadn't won a diplomatic victory.

 

[yavoon]

Irrespective of the civ I am playing and it's starting techs I nearly always try a shot at at Hinduism (and if failed even Judaism or Code of Laws via the Oracle). The reason is simple: the alternative would be worker techs. But for this you need a worker. And at higher levels it is no use to build improvements early on as the barbarians will destroy them. So better first concentrate on the land grap (by cities and culture (early religion + monuments for which you need mysticism anyway) and later on concentrate on improving production (worker techs).

For instance with Churchill I go:
Mysticism->Polytheism->Sailing (spreads the religion+connects your towns!)->Hunting->Archery->worker techs.

Holy cities are very nice not only for its mid/late game money production but also for the early cultural production. In no time you have a level 3 cultural city and can dominate a large area.

Sometimes I go even further and research Masonry+Monotheism straight after Polytheism if am close to marble and or stone. This way you have at least the possibility of a cultural victory.

In my last game with Churchill on emperor this gave me Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity (via the Oracle) and a lot of early wonders... I would have won a cultural victory if I hadn't won a diplomatic victory.

so u research 5 techs on emperor before getting anything that allows ur workers to do something? I'm on the verge of simply not believing u. it seems to me someone on emperor should have realized that barbs dont enter the cultural borders for a long time.

 

[Phrederick]

The reason is simple: the alternative would be worker techs. But for this you need a worker. And at higher levels it is no use to build improvements early on as the barbarians will destroy them.

I've never had a huge problem with that. They pillage a few things, but it's still usually worth it to pop out an early worker.

 

[Jorunkun]

Irrespective of the civ I am playing and it's starting techs I nearly always try a shot at at Hinduism (and if failed even Judaism or Code of Laws via the Oracle). The reason is simple: the alternative would be worker techs. But for this you need a worker. And at higher levels it is no use to build improvements early on as the barbarians will destroy them. So better first concentrate on the land grap (by cities and culture (early religion + monuments for which you need mysticism anyway) and later on concentrate on improving production (worker techs).

Why are so many people on this forum so fussed about Barbarians on Emperor? I just don't get it. They are a nuisance (edit: the barbs, not the posters ), and you need to take some precautions against them (read: fogbust) but IMHO they are not a serious threat and certainly not a reason to delay building a worker and improving the land.

In virtually all of my games, a worker will be among my first three builds. If I start with techs that match the specials around my captial, or with mining (= beeline for bw) I will get a worker out first thing. I rarely get even one of these pillaged.

So I really don't see the point in pursuing religions because there is nothing better to do with your tech until you have some cities down. In fact, having a worker out chopping is probably the best way of getting cities down quickly ... but for that you need to have BW asap, which is not on the religious path.

Playing Emperor, do you get anywhere with this start?

 

[uberfish]

Actually, aside from the ultra-religious starts, there are several scenarios where you don't want to build worker first even though it's the most efficient in terms of accumulated production per turn.

Most common is the scenario where you want an early settler before worker, to avoid being crowded out of the best 2nd city site (which happens more often the higher level you go.) Losing the best site more than nullifies any advantage from worker first.

There's a whole lot of nonsense written about exponential growth, which is not a valid model for civ4 as there are multiple caps on expansion and geometrically increasing maintenance costs. In fact I would say that the biggest benefit of getting one of the first two religions is getting +1 happiness cap (+2 with cheap temple) very early in the game. Having 5 cities size 4 is better than 6 cities size 3.

 

[Jorunkun]

I don't disagree with you, überfish: Sometimes settler first is indeed the only way to grab land, especially if you need to prevent getting boxed in or beaten to the only good land around. Also, I don't categorically build worker first.

But I would argue that a worker investment in your early growth is the most safe and solid start in the majority of games on emperor (playing shuffle, random climate and sealevel) - and, in response to the above posts, I certainly wouldn't advise holding back for fear of barbs if the opportunity to take advantage of it presents itself.

A situation where you can benefit fully from the happiness bonus of religion - nice as it is - is rare. Temples are expensive unless you are spiritual, and switching to the religion for +2 may carry a diplomatic penalty, as discussed. Often, you will have enough early happies nearby to get you to a decent size before monarchy or theatres kick in so it's not really needed.

Of course the inverse is also true - by the time you realise you have no happies it is often too late to go after a religion. But my gut feel is that to found an early religion as a hedge against not having too few happies is not cost-efficient in most cases.

Ironically, I just played a game last night where, as Isabella on a crap swamp start, I did found Buddhism, which rapidly spread to the 3 atheist civs I shared a really crammed continent with. Although I was the underdog until caravels and the shrine, I was immensely safe and well-informed thoughout the first half of the game, which was a lot of fun.

But while this thread has made me appreciate the variety and benefits of religion gambits, I still maintan that games where the stars align like this are rare, and that founding religion is a dominated strategy in most emperor games.