France acts to prevent extreme Islamic takeover of Mali

Just ignore him, Akka. Reality took a restraining order against him :(
That's what I've been doing, but the problem is obviously that not everyone follow such common sense.
Which ends, like so often on these forum, ruining a potentially good thread by reducing it to everyone trying uselessly to "debate" with a tool hanging on his pet peeves and hijacking the subject.

We should be talking about the problem facing a country divided by racial tensions, potential armed militia and islamist guerilla. But no...
 
We should be talking about the problem facing a country divided by racial tensions, potential armed militia and islamist guerilla. But no...

Yes, we should be talking about the Malian government as well, (including their recent massacre of 33 civilians they threw down a well, as well as new racist mob violence against Arabs and Tuaregs happening now because they are "terrorists") shouldn't we? Also, is not France and NATO's plans for the future in Mali a relevant topic for this discussion? Or should I only talk about that which supports the OP's sophomoric title for this thread?

We should also be talking about European colonial history in Africa, (including the absolute ignorance the people of the colonizing nations were kept in via propaganda), as well as what led to this Ansar Dine, which NATO armed to overthrow Ghaddafi. We should also be talking about the efficacy and history of arming Islamists to overthrow secular governments.

Why should we only focus on a small part of the story? How about we look at everything as a whole, before thinking about delving into the present specifics presented to us via our "media"?

Did Ghaddafi warn his overthrow would lead to groups like Ansar Dine springing up? Why yes he did. Did he not say many of the "protesters" and rebels were actually Al-Queada and terrorists*, why yes he did. Did what he said would happen come true? WHY YES IT DID.

with a tool hanging on his pet peeves and hijacking the subject

I'm no tool, student. Please tell me how I have derailed the subject? Others tried to derail it with discussions of fluoride or my "kooky" ideas from other threads. I'd like to know why you think I have derailed this discussion when clearly it has been others trying to derail it.

Was the discussion about imperialism a derail?
 
Also, I am countering a prediction that this will be a short French/NATO intervention. I do not believe it will. Time will tell who is right, no?

If there is an alarming increase of terrorist attacks in North Africa, how is NATO going to reply?
I bet you anything NATO's response will not be "short term".

The war on terrorism is a war on a tactic of warfare. It cannot be won with war. But it does give good excuse to occupy and re-occupy countries.
 
All the more reason to now moaw them all down.

Kind of useful if it was always like this, no? One intervention "requires" the need for the next intervention. Not that I'm suggesting this was planned. No, it would be cheaper to loot the region do it without military spending.

And guess what? The french themselves seem busy discussing "conspiracy theories" about what's going on in the Sahel. Is it about oil? Were the people of northern Mali invaded/armed just because they were unfortunate enough to be sitting on top of the Taoudéni basin?

Il fallait s’en douter … alors que nous indiquions ici même que la carte d’implantation d’AQMI (Al Qaïda au Maghreb islamique) au Sahel ressemblait « étrangement » à celle de l’implantation des ressources pétrolières de la région, « Le Canard Enchaîné » nous révèle l’activisme diplomatique du Qatar en faveur des islamistes et son implication dans le financement des mouvements armés notamment au nord du Mali.

Selon l’hebdomadaire satirique, l’émir du Qatar aurait aidé financièrement les mouvements armés qui ont pris le contrôle du Nord du Mali. Parmi ces groupes figurent notamment le fameux Mujao, lequel retient en otage 7 diplomates algériens depuis le 5 avril dernier.

Dans un article intitulé « Notre ami du Qatar finance les islamistes du Mali », le Canard Enchaîné précise que la Direction du renseignement militaire (DRM), qui relève du chef d’état-major des armées françaises, a recueilli des renseignements selon lesquels « les insurgés du MNLA (indépendantistes et laïcs), les mouvements Ansar Dine, Aqmi et Mujao (djihad en Afrique de l’Ouest) ont reçu une aide en dollars du Qatar ».

Le fin mot de l’histoire : l’impétueux volatile révèle que le Qatar aurait « des visées » sur les richesses des sous-sols du Sahel, évoquant « des négociations discrètes » qui auraient d’ores et déjà débuté avec Total, pour une exploitation prochaine du pétrole de la région à l’avenir !

Toujours selon le Canard Enchaîné, le ministre français de la Défense, Jean-Yves Le Drian, « n’ignore aucune des mauvaises nouvelles arrivées d’Afrique subsaharienne. Et rien de l’implication de « notre ami du Qatar » – formule d’un officier de l’état-major – dans la « capture » du Nord du Mali par plusieurs mouvements djihadiste. »

Selon l’hebdomadaire, au début de cette année, « plusieurs note de la DGSE ont alerté l’Elysée sur les activités internationales », de l’émirat du Qatar. Mais le président Sarkozy n’ y a pas donné suite pour ne pas incommoder son « ami » le cheikh Hamad ben Kalifa Al-Thani, nous dit-on.

And can the the french-qatari friendship that had seemed to play out so well in Libya be so sadly broken so quickly? Such are the pitfalls of geopolitics and economic "exploration"...
 
the Algerian expedition must have turned into a mess for the Qatari Democrats , considering the British PM had fly to Bingazi personally to cool them down .
 
"Seem quite happy" based on what? Your tee vee screen told you so? Is there any proof? You scientific minds sure don't need proof when your holy government has told you otherwise. You worship your tee vee sets and your holy governments and flags. You are nothing but religious followers of your patriotism.

I don't watch TV. Try reading a decent paper some time and you'd be updated on reality: the WAU has been requested, with UN support to head an intervention. France came to the rescue. (Oh, and I'm not a patriot nor French, sir.)

Oh, and how much do you know about African history to say what I have said is wrong?

I just did in my previous post and repeated it for your education here again. More below.

No. The "official Mali government" is run by a dictator that overthrew a democratically elected government. So it may be "the official Mali government" but that doesn't mean it reflects the will of the "official Mali people".

What does "the official Mali people" even mean? Malians have fled the violence accompanied by the Islamist threat. Doesn't that tell you enough? And what "dictator" are you even talking about?

Also, I am countering a prediction that this will be a short French/NATO intervention. I do not believe it will. Time will tell who is right, no?

It's not a NATO intervention. France merely informed selected governments of its intentions, as a NATO member should.

If there is an alarming increase of terrorist attacks in North Africa, how is NATO going to reply?
I bet you anything NATO's response will not be "short term".

The war on terrorism is a war on a tactic of warfare. It cannot be won with war. But it does give good excuse to occupy and re-occupy countries.

Which however isn't happening here. It seems you are seeing ghosts. I'm sorry, I see little evidence of your supposed extensive knowledge of African affairs in your comments.
 
I don't watch TV. Try reading a decent paper some time and you'd be updated on reality: the WAU has been requested, with UN support to head an intervention. France came to the rescue. (Oh, and I'm not a patriot nor French, sir.)
Have there been any polls?
I just did in my previous post and repeated it for your education here again. More below.
No you didn't, you repeated the story given to you from the media with no real evidence that there is public support behind French intervention. Any polls? Was there any kind of vote?
And what "dictator" are you even talking about?
You think you can talk down to me, and you don't even know who the dictator of Mali is?
It's not a NATO intervention. France merely informed selected governments of its intentions, as a NATO member should.
You think you can talk down to me, and you don't even know NATO countries are lending support?
Which however isn't happening here. It seems you are seeing ghosts. I'm sorry,
You think you can talk down to me and you don't even know about the recent refinery takeover in Algeria?
I see little evidence of your supposed extensive knowledge of African affairs in your comments.
How could you? You obviously don't know even know the basics. You don't even know who the dictator of Mali is! You didn't even Mali is being run by one! And you were actually intellectually lazy enough to ask me "what one I was even talking about" while trying to tell me how ignorant I am on the subject!!! Your intellectual laziness is also proven by the fact I already talk about who the dictator of Mali is in this very thread! So not only were you too lazy to look into the specifics of this situation before spouting off about how ignorant I am, you were too lazy to even read the thread before putting in your worthless two cents.

You fail, student.

What does "the official Mali people" even mean?

Figure it out, student. I am not your teacher.
 
What scenario am I proposing?

All I am pointing out is how you all gobble up propaganda like it's truth. A couple seconds of footage of a bunch of happy people chasing an armored vehicle and you think that means the people of Mali are glad they are being bombed, and that this will be a short and quick victory.

We do not gobble up propaganda as you're saying, I try to look to many and various news agencies, I read malien newspapers and listened to "african" radio stations on the matter. And it all makes me thinks that Malien did indeed in majority welcome the war against the Jihadi rule in the north, not because "they are happy being bombed", but because some time a war is the only way to get rid of a criminal power. French weren't happy being bombed in WWII, they were still happy to see "foreign imperialists armies" warring in their country (even the Brits ;-) )
The scanario you're proposing is basically "we're manipulated, govenrments are lying and the media is lying for them". That looks just too unlikely to be true.
 
The scanario you're proposing is basically "we're manipulated, govenrments are lying and the media is lying for them". That looks just too unlikely to be true.

They aren't lying about what they are doing, they are lying about their long term intentions. And why would this be an unlikely scenario? Why would this scenario be different from all the previous scenarios where the media lied on behalf of its government?

I have stated in this thread time and time again it will not be short, which is what the French government wants its people to believe. It doesn't want them or the people of North Africa to think it has long term machinations in its former colonies. That is where the lying has come in. If terrorist attacks increase, (5 million Muslims in France), the French Government knows damn well that will give them further excuse to occupy North Africa. Occupations are rarely quick and easy.

I read malien newspapers and listened to "african" radio stations on the matter. And it all makes me thinks that Malien did indeed in majority welcome the war against the Jihadi rule in the north,

Ahh, yes, the free Mali press under its new dictator, no doubt... ...in French no doubt. Or was that in Bambara? You get an impression from a French News station the people of Mali are re-embracing their former colonizers? And how many Tuaregs and Arabs were interviewed? (Also citizens of the region) Did they talk about the mob violence happening against them? Were they happy for that? How about the 33 Tuaregs massacred and thrown down a well by the Malian army? Are they happy?

And if the Tuaregs asked for France's help as well, why didn't France just help the Tuaregs get destroy Ansar Dine? Why are they helping the Mali dictator destroy Islamist and the Tuareg uprising?


it really doesn't matter what you think your media has told you is true. Time will tell who is right. I'd be willing to bet French troops will still be in Mali in 2017.
 
They aren't lying about what they are doing, they are lying about their long term intentions. And why would this be an unlikely scenario? Why would this scenario be different from all the previous scenarios where the media lied on behalf of its government?

OK, my bad. Oh, in that case I don't necessarily trust what the Government is telling about its intention, I rather weight the + and - for France to stay or leave Mali. What I think is going to happen is that France we'll keep a small force a provide assistance to the Malian army for some time, the way they did in Afghanistan and the way they are doing in Ivory Coast now. I however don't think that is necessarily bad. And don't start throwing "french imperalist" at me, I am tunisian, i was the one colonised by France, but I don't think every foreign presence is necessarily bad. If troubles go up north ans start generatin too much troubles for the Tunisian government to deal with, I'd have no problem having France assist Tunisia dealing with AQMI.

I have stated in this thread time and time again it will not be short, which is what the French government wants its people to believe. It doesn't want them or the people of North Africa to think it has long term machinations in its former colonies. That is where the lying has come in. If terrorist attacks increase, (5 million Muslims in France), the French Government knows damn well that will give them further excuse to occupy North Africa. Occupations are rarely quick and easy.

France won't "occupy" Mali not because it can't but because french people don't want that to happen, unless Malien terrorist attacks become daily and the only way stopping them would be occupying Mali (which will never happen IMHO, you have every right to think otherwise).

If by occupying you're more thinking about what I wrote above, than that is indeed not necessarily unlikely. But than again, if free and honest elections are held soon and the democratically elected governement of Mali is OK with that, I don't see why would that be a problem.

Ahh, yes, the free Mali press under its new dictator, no doubt... ...in French no doubt. Or was that in Bambara?

Stop the patronising tone, I doubt you read bambara or even french for that matter :lol:
I grew up in a dictator hip my self and know that you need to be very cautious about news in places like Mali. That being said, i have to say:
1. when malien press in written french, that is not necessarily bad contrary to what your insinuating (as if french languaged newspaper must be pro-french !!!!!). In Ben Ali Tunisia, many of the free press was in french because many poeple understand the language in the country (or know tons of people that do) and it gives the media international access which is usually one of the purposes (make international media "know" about what's going on).
2. Mali, until recently was considered almost a model in the region in terms of freedom of the press and democracy. The Coup d'Etat happened a few month ago, before that ATT was elected "decently fairly". It's not Switzerland, but it's not North Korea either. Again, that is the impression I had from local, regional (I read arabic) and international (if you have more trustworthy sources, please share them with us)


You get an impression from a French News station the people of Mali are re-embracing their former colonizers? And how many Tuaregs and Arabs were interviewed? (Also citizens of the region) Did they talk about the mob violence happening against them? Were they happy for that? How about the 33 Tuaregs massacred and thrown down a well by the Malian army? Are they happy?

Why won't Malien embrace French if they think they are doing the right job for them???? What makes you think Malien hate French to the point of refusing help from them? (do you still hate the Brits to the point of not wanting them to help you?)

And yes, here on french TV, they indeed did interviewed Tuareg and showed massacres done by Malien Army againt the Tuareg/Arabs. So what? Allies I am sure did very wrong things while moving towards Berlin, women were raped and some prisoners were killed, that is not enough of a reason to make the whole Allies war against 3rd Reich an Unjustified Imperialist Invasion. I hope the people who did that will be tried, but war is war.

And if the Tuaregs asked for France's help as well, why didn't France just help the Tuaregs get destroy Ansar Dine? Why are they helping the Mali dictator destroy Islamist and the Tuareg uprising?

That is a whole new subject: should Tuareg have their own country? I have no idea to be honest. French government, as many other, seem however to be against that. And again Mali is indeed under a dictatorship now, though it was not the case one year ago. I, as french, hope my govenrment will push the malien authorities toward fair elections soon.


it really doesn't matter what you think your media has told you is true. Time will tell who is right. I'd be willing to bet French troops will still be in Mali in 2017.

It doesne't matter either what YOU tells us is true cause, with all due respect, I do not see any reason to take yours words more seriously than those of many media sources in France, Mali, London, Algiers, Dakar, Abidjan, Ouagadougou etc.
And for your bet, I hope you'll be wrong, but even if you were right, I don't consider this to be necessarily done against Malien people.
 
And right after being finished with the main military intervention, France is now asking for UN to take over.

That must have been the fastest imperialism period ever. Though I suppose the entire UN is a tool for imperialism, so the Illuminati will soon take control of the country to feed the Area 52 with whatever can be extracted from the oppressed Malian people (who were actually enjoying the Sharia law and secretly hate the intervention).
 
So much for 'long term imperialist intervention'...

Have there been any polls?

Have the goalposts been moved?

No you didn't, you repeated the story given to you from the media with no real evidence that there is public support behind French intervention. Any polls? Was there any kind of vote?

More changed goalposts after discovering I don't watch "teevee"? Name an intervention that was preceded by a poll or public vote, please.

You think you can talk down to me, and you don't even know who the dictator of Mali is?

Apparently you don't understand a rhetorical question...

You think you can talk down to me, and you don't even know NATO countries are lending support?

Unsubstantiated assumption.

You think you can talk down to me and you don't even know about the recent refinery takeover in Algeria?

You didn't mention it, so I didn't comment on it.

You obviously don't know even know the basics. You don't even know who the dictator of Mali is! You didn't even Mali is being run by one! And you were actually intellectually lazy enough to ask me "what one I was even talking about" while trying to tell me how ignorant I am on the subject!!! Your intellectual laziness is also proven by the fact I already talk about who the dictator of Mali is in this very thread! So not only were you too lazy to look into the specifics of this situation before spouting off about how ignorant I am, you were too lazy to even read the thread before putting in your worthless two cents.

You fail, student.

You assume a lot, as in your other posts. Try adding a little substantiation, as that is sorely missing. (As per 2 cts: whom the shoe fits...)

I am not your teacher.

If you were, I'd be sorely disappointed in your teaching. I've had better, junior.
 
Everything's a conspiracy. If there's no evidence that it is, it's a very well-hidden conspiracy and should arouse all the more suspicion.
 
And right after being finished with the main military intervention, France is now asking for UN to take over.

Talk talk talk. Where will the UN forces be from? Will France have a contingency? What happens if there are more terrorist attacks. A little premature to be declaring victory and stability in Mali. These wars don't happen like that. That should have been learned from Iraq and Afghanistan.

The military moves in, bombs a bunch of stuff, then declares victory. Then the Islamist slowly starts a campaign of IED's and VBIED's as well as targeted killings and assassinations.

In response, the invading military digs its heels in.


Though I suppose the entire UN is a tool for imperialism,

That it is. That is why their offices get bombed. (Canal Hotel bombing) That is why it was one of the first offices bombed by insurgents in Iraq after the United States invasion. And it had just been set up too, five months after the invasion.

The Iraq war lasted for eight more years.

And all the pansies were crying, "why would anyone bomb the UN? It doesn't make sense!" It makes perfect sense.

Duh.

Jeleen said:
Apparently you don't understand a rhetorical question...

So, basically, you had no response to the fact Mali is run by a dictator, but you had to type something because that's your style, so you typed an incredibly stupid rhetorirical question, "what dictator"? :lol: Was your rhetorical question supposed to pose he isn't a dictator?

More changed goalposts after discovering I don't watch "teevee"? Name an intervention that was preceded by a poll or public vote, please.

I'm not changing the goalposts. You are the one trying to change what I said. I am trying to keep your attacks focused on what I said, not on what you say I said.
 
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