France/Japan discussion (patch 3.6)

[Legen]

This thread is to discuss the current state of France and Japan in VP, as mentioned by pineappledan in the 3.6 AI-only game statistics:

I think France / Japan balance and design should move to a separate thread.

There is a bigger discussion to be had about what we want both of those civs to do, because right now they are doubled-up on a lot of similar mechanics, rewards, emphases, and components, to the detriment of both.

Relevant parts:

Sivs that we are 95% sure are strong in AI hands:

• Japan - Japan has consistently been near the top for their ability to convert warring into CV. The recent conquest improvements have affected them predictably. They have also received numerous buffs over the last few versions, making their bushido promotions stronger and giving them to more units. Their early tech path has been repeatedly buffed (numerous barracks buffs, bronze working buffs, etc.). Not only was this civ doing fine before, it feels as though some of the recent changes to the early game were tailor made to enable and accommodate Japan.
  • proposal: revert the change that gave Bushido to boats. It was an unnecessary steroid to a civ that already was doing well.
  • Better yet: rework the UA entirely. Maybe give Japan's GWAM bonus to France, so that only 1 of these civs is giving this type of bonus. The +1 on some buildings in the UA is possibly the most creatively bankrupt and uninteresting bonuses given by any civ's kit

civs that we are 95% sure are weak in AI hands:

• France - We have been talking about how bad France is for over a year. This civ's UA needs to be reworked. It's not even particularly fun.
  • proposal: Either give France an entirely new ability, or give them Japan's version of the GWAM trigger. Either way, the city conquest bonus needs to go.

Strongly disagree with the approach. I find that what has been pushing AI Japan's winrate is the abnormally high number of scientific victories they get, despite the civ's kit not being designed for that. In this latest simulation, Japan got proportionally more scientific wins than Korea, Babylon, Maya and Assyria, who are tailored around such victory, and one of Japan's scientific wins had them matched against Korea and Babylon. Other recent simulations also had Japan getting a good number of scientific victories as well, comparable to dedicated scientific civs, so I don't think this one is an exception.

My attention is on the Dojo. Aside from giving +3 science over the Armory, the Emperor AI also has a special benefit from the leveling mechanic, as a city with Barracks and Dojo would get a unit to level 4 immediately building it for this AI, instead of level 3 that humans get. This means that, instead of gaining 5 after creating a military unit, AI Japan gets 21 . Add to it that AI units also earns more experience from combat (iirc +60% on Emperor), and the AI gets a lot more science than a human could from this mechanic.

We already saw how Japan's leveling mechanic could get out of control with the AI handicap bonuses in the past, when Gazebo experimented replacing Japan's GWAM UA with other mechanics. One of these experiments had the leveling mechanic moved from the Dojo to the UA (and, therefore, available from turn 1). Deity AI Japan easily dominated, with someone reporting AI Japan getting to Medieval when other AIs had just got to Classical. And human players could sometimes get a taste of that with a scout and lucky ancient ruins. Since Japan has had an easier time with Domination lately (which they're intended to excel at), it is likely that this mechanic is turning warring into science better than even Assyria's kit.

I've been thinking of replacing the science on leveling for something else, so that Japan stops performing like a dedicated scientific civ in AI hands. One idea I'm considering is to remove the +3 on the Dojo and replace the science on leveling for faith instead; this way, the Dojo's leveling mechanic mirrors the yields Japan gets from military and defensive buildings, establishing a more coherent theme. Older versions had the Dojo giving on leveling, so faith is not a radical design shift for the Dojo.


I don't think further copying Japan's UA would help France, and could make it worse. Japan had many patches in which the GWAM didn't translate into good AI performance, and there were patches in which some players would argue France's GWAM version was outright better than Japan's. France also has no directed support for Great General/Admiral generation, notably lacking Japan's focus on an army composition that prioritizes units that generate plenty of Great General/Admiral points.

I find the main issue with France comes from its UA design piling support for an effect that no longer exists, which resulted in an all-or-nothing UA. Unmodded BNW France had double theming bonuses as its UA, and VP first added support to it with an ability to steal great works on city conquest. This first support wasn't without flaws, as the opponent may not have yet any great work to steal; this was then adjusted to gain some cultural benefits in such case, just like Assyria. Later on, the great work theft was replaced with GWAM on city conquest (when Japan was undergoing experimentation with a Sakoku UA), and the culture on conquest was no longer tied to failing to steal a great work (moving it away from its original intention). At some point, the doubled theming bonus was removed from the UA, meaning France's design direction went from supporting double theming, to being practically all about city conquest.

I think there's a good reason why double theming bonuses was a recurring request back in the France balance thread, and bringing it back can realign France's design into a coherent direction. I proposed before a double theming UA that tried to do that, but it wasn't sponsored. I'm thinking of proposing something like it again.

Or instead of making Japan more of a Civ, we could embrace that he has sources of in his kit that he can use to achieve that victory. We have relatively few civs overall that give decent bonuses; why would we replace one for a more common bonus?

If we have to make a decision between removing Japan’s science bonuses or his religious bonuses, then the clear loser is his faith bonuses. Those on building class bonuses should die in a fire; they would be lame even as a policy bonus, but are catastrophically sad as a UA bonus.


Then you remember things differently than me.
There was tacit acceptance for that proposal, but not enthusiasm. People agreed that France’s current UA is terrible, but the reception we got for proposing to bring back the theming bonus was not great. Especially in the context of the work involved by someone else to code it. It’s a lot of work to implement for a UA ability that no one particularly wants.

Even if it were coded, I’m not sure it would stay. People have pointed out pretty fair criticism about how late and slow the theming bonuses are to generate, and how generally irritating the mechanic can be. The first theming bonus isn’t until late classical, for instance.

The only direct support Japan has is the Great Generals II promotion on his samurai. France also has a melee UU. You could simply give France direct support for the ability in a few ways, any of which would be easier to implement than the theming bonus stuff:

Esprit de Corps
- +10% Damage and +1 GGeneral/GAdmiral Point for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
- When a Great General/Admiral is born, receive Great Artist, Writer, and Musician Points in your Capital

It comes down to how we want the civ to play. Do we want Japan to be a science heavy civ?

It can be argued that science is a double power boost for a warmonger. Traditional warmongers normal lack in tech, and so have to use their superior combat boosts often against superior units. Japan gets the best of both worlds, a strong bonus and high quality units, which is likely helping their warmongering quite a bit.

I respect your desire to completely change Japan, and I'm sure you will want to put in a proposal for some of those ideas. But for those looking for a simplier balance change that doesn't completely change japan, I do think a simple science nerf (no replacement just pure nerf) is the simplest way to approach it.

 

[pineappledan]

More relevant stuff:
1. Recent proposal that extended Japan's unique promotions onto naval melee units. A considerable buff

2. a proposal to change France's UA to this:
Esprit de Corps

• +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• When you conquer a City, gain a temporary boost to Culture and Production in all Cities.
• Theming bonuses are doubled and grant Production in the city.

3. my own proposal to move the good GWAM trigger to France and rework Japan:
France - Esprit de Corps

• +10% Damage and +1 GGeneral/GAdmiral Point for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• When a Great General/Admiral is born, receive Great Artist, Writer, and Musician Points in your Capital

Japan - Sakoku

• Civilizations cannot send trade routes to you unless you have a trade route with them.
• Civilizations' units cannot enter your lands without a Declaration of War or Open Borders.
• Gain +1 Happiness and +10%Great Person Rate in all Cities for each unassigned Trade Route.
  • ie. for each trade slot in excess of your active trade routes

Partial implementation of those UA ideas in a mod (doesn't include the parts that are really hard and would require DLL)

@Enginseer 's France Rework (can be downloaded and playable here)

@Hinin 's France Rework (can be downloaded and playable here)
Grandeur

• +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• +2 Production, +2 Tourism and +2 Great General point from World, National and Natural Wonders (+1 from Guilds).
• +3 Food from Great Works and Great Person Tile Improvements.
• Replaces Chateau with Sainte-Chapelle, a UNW that replaces the Grand Temple
• Major Musketeer rework

 

[pineappledan]

More more relevant stuff:

Spoiler civilization win rates and victory types summary :

Relevant information on the graph:

• Graph has 95% confidence intervals for where we think the civs' real win rate is located
• The graph follows a Poisson distribution. It is somewhat more likely that the real civ win rate is slightly lower than results, and somewhat less likely that is it higher, but there is a long tale on the higher win rates, so it could be higher by more. This is why the 95% confidence interval is bigger on the top.
• Games were played on emperor difficulty, Continents map, standard speed. Ideal win rates for all civs would therefore be 1 in 8, or 12.5%
• Japan ranked 2nd overall - Test result was a win rate of 29.5%. real win rate is estimated between 20.5% and 39.5%
• France ranked 43rd. Last place - Test result was a win rate of 2%. real win rate is estimated between 0% and 5%

 

[Enginseer]

i like my french idea

Spoiler idea :

 

[pineappledan]

As you can see from the AI test games, the AI players think France is kinda bad.
As you can see from the 3 different tweak mods that have reworked France to some degree, the modmodders think France is kinda bad too.

 

[Legen]

On France's design, I've been considering bringing them back to being a dedicated cultural civ (like in the unmodded versions), but adding a golden age element to them. None of the European civs are truly dedicated towards a cultural victory, and none of them are a golden age civ either. France could fill both positions and it should be thematic with how the nation tends to be seen, with the only caveat being that we'd want to distinct them from Brazil (also cultural, GA oriented and Western civ, though not an European one).

Another point is that, in the archived France balance thread, people often mentioned not just the doubled theming bonus, but also making France a dedicated Tradition civ, pointing out just how much bigger Paris is compared to all other French cities. This could be a good point of distinction with Brazil, who I've been finding to be working better with Progress after the changes to Tradition and Artistry.

Here's a preliminary concept for France's UA, and one that doesn't require any new code:

UA: City of Light (original name in BNW, and one of Paris's nicknames)
"Tripled theming bonuses in the Capital. +50% Great Writer, Artist and Musician rate during Golden Ages."

Spoiler Note :

The code of the original French UA in BNW allows for any modifier, not just doubled, and affects all theming sets in the Capital; the old "museum and world wonders" wording is because the museum is the only unmodded source of theming sets outside wonders. However, it only affects the / part, not the "Active Theme Bonus" added in VP (such as the +10 on Globe Theater).

Basically the original UA with a bigger modifier, plus part of Brazil's original UA in BNW to help France fill those enhanced theming sets. The latter has gone through changes in VP, first turned into a boost to all GP, then moved to Korea, nerfed to 30% when Korea was overperforming, and recently removed. I think the original version should be strong enough for France, distinct enough from Japan's UA, and set a good distinction with current Brazil, who is not focused on specialists; they instead rely on an alternative source of tourism as their edge over other civs.

There's more that can be added to this UA, and the rest of the kit, for a clearer synergy (e.g. GAP on Chateau and on kills with the Musketeer) or variety (like the combat bonus on the current UA). But this version should be a decent starting point for discussion.

 

[Legen]

On Japan's design, I don't think they need any radical change, just tweaks in regard to them winning scientific victories as well as dedicated scientific civs.

On the argument about letting Japan also have a science focus, I don't think they should for now; they already have a hybrid cultural/militaristic design and are strong in both, adding science to it makes them practically a generalist civ and would require toning down their current intended strengths. Moreover, we already have two civs that are designed around converting military strength into science (Assyria and Ottomans), I don't see a need for a third one.

The things I can see room for change are the following:

• Few bonuses for peacetime (common complaint in the old Japan balance thread)
• The "yields on leveling" mechanic having excessive science output on AI hands
• No direct interaction between the "GG/GA->GWAM birth" and the "yields on leveling" mechanics
• Alternatives for the on military/defensive buildings

The first one has to do with just how reliant Japan is on being at war with a major civ in order to capitalize on their uniques, making them quite unbalanced towards the militaristic side; if you get an isolated island start (like their real life counterparts), you're bound to fall behind. Of course, that's true for many warmongers, but I think people want Japan to be able to thrive in an isolated start, given their real life counterparts did, and that maps that replicate our world and each civ's real location (e.g. Yet (not) Another Earth Maps Pack, Accurate Earth) do leave Japan isolated on an island.

I've already discussed the second point before, and I want to replace the science on leveling for something else. On that and the third point, I'm considering making leveling give great general points instead of science (at a lower value, likely a quarter). This would make the Dojo's leveling mechanic interact with the UA's GWAM birth and further knit the civ's synergies. Moreover it would be a way for Japan to have more peacetime use of their UA, as trained units can provide some GG points from its initial levels.

On the fourth point, the original intent of that effect was to give Japan something for the early game, since their original "fight at extra strength when wounded" was moved from the UA to the Dojo. At that, I've often thought that it should provide early science, since Japan's current design makes them the premier Longswordman Rush civ: they have an UU Longswordman, their UB is on the same tech and it further supports the UU in combat. The most straightforward way to do well with this civ is to beeline to Steel and rush Samurai on a neighbor as early as possible.

Since pineappledan finds that part too uninspiring, I'm considering replacing it for an earlier Dojo unlock, at either Metal Casting or Engineering. That would accomplish the idea of a faster Samurai rush, as it would cut the delay of having to set up Dojos on your cities before creating your UU. I'm also considering just making military/defense buildings give 1 Great General Point per turn instead of , as that would enable a peacetime use for the UA's GWAM birth. Base GG points on a building is only done by a Celtic pantheon (Morrigan) iirc, making such effect a lot more unique than the current iteration.

 

[AndreyK]

While I agree with replacing science on leveling - and this is very good idea, I think that culture/faith on military/defensive buildings should stay, this what makes Japan interesting and be able to found. If you remove this, then Japan won't be able found religion and I think that Japan will fall behind and down.

 

[pineappledan]

On Japan's design, I don't think they need any radical change, just tweaks in regard to them winning scientific victories as well as dedicated scientific civs.

On the argument about letting Japan also have a science focus, I don't think they should for now; they already have a hybrid cultural/militaristic design and are strong in both, adding science to it makes them practically a generalist civ and would require toning down their current intended strengths. Moreover, we already have two civs that are designed around converting military strength into science (Assyria and Ottomans), I don't see a need for a third one.

The things I can see room for change are the following:

• Few bonuses for peacetime (common complaint in the old Japan balance thread)
• The "yields on leveling" mechanic having excessive science output on AI hands
• No direct interaction between the "GG/GA->GWAM birth" and the "yields on leveling" mechanics
• Alternatives for the on military/defensive buildings

The first one has to do with just how reliant Japan is on being at war with a major civ in order to capitalize on their uniques, making them quite unbalanced towards the militaristic side; if you get an isolated island start (like their real life counterparts), you're bound to fall behind. Of course, that's true for many warmongers, but I think people want Japan to be able to thrive in an isolated start, given their real life counterparts did, and that maps that replicate our world and each civ's real location (e.g. Yet (not) Another Earth Maps Pack, Accurate Earth) do leave Japan isolated on an island.

I've already discussed the second point before, and I want to replace the science on leveling for something else. On that and the third point, I'm considering making leveling give great general points instead of science (at a lower value, likely a quarter). This would make the Dojo's leveling mechanic interact with the UA's GWAM birth and further knit the civ's synergies. Moreover it would be a way for Japan to have more peacetime use of their UA, as trained units can provide some GG points from its initial levels.

On the fourth point, the original intent of that effect was to give Japan something for the early game, since their original "fight at extra strength when wounded" was moved from the UA to the Dojo. At that, I've often thought that it should provide early science, since Japan's current design makes them the premier Longswordman Rush civ: they have an UU Longswordman, their UB is on the same tech and it further supports the UU in combat. The most straightforward way to do well with this civ is to beeline to Steel and rush Samurai on a neighbor as early as possible.

Since pineappledan finds that part too uninspiring, I'm considering replacing it for an earlier Dojo unlock, at either Metal Casting or Engineering. That would accomplish the idea of a faster Samurai rush, as it would cut the delay of having to set up Dojos on your cities before creating your UU. I'm also considering just making military/defense buildings give 1 Great General Point per turn instead of , as that would enable a peacetime use for the UA's GWAM birth. Base GG points on a building is only done by a Celtic pantheon (Morrigan) iirc, making such effect a lot more unique than the current iteration.

All of your suggestions save from dropping the On buildings are a buff. That is not what the doctor ordered. Even if you moved the Dojo forward, that still means that his kit has pretty much no abilities until late classical.

I get it. People like Japan. He’s a fun civ to play as. That makes it hard to change him for balance reasons. However, it remains a fact that both AI and players have been reporting that Japan overperforms for a while. Japan has to change substantially, but instead of nerfing or delaying his existing abilities, why not use them somewhere else?

What I proposed to do in my own civ rework of Japan and France is to preserve as much of Japan's fun bits by replacing the unfun parts of France with them. As you say, the Dojo part and the GWAM birth part don't have much to do with each other right now. Japan's two major mechanical incentives are disjointed, and don't reward or reinforce each other, so I see no reason

UA: City of Light (original name in BNW, and one of Paris's nicknames)
"Tripled theming bonuses in the Capital. +50% Great Writer, Artist and Musician rate during Golden Ages."

Re: France and restoring the theming bonuses. I was right there with you supporting that idea for a long time. I believe I was the one that originally proposed going back to some iteration of the original UA, but in all cities and incorporating the new active theming bonuses. The problem remains that, no matter what you set the numbers to, the first themed building is not until late classical, and you don't get your 2nd GP type until late medieval. It's way too dependent on Tradition to work, and it's too far away from the game start to feel like a decent UA. The theming bonus would be much more at home on a policy/tenet, or a National Wonder. It's the kind of bonus that needs to be pushed off the game's start.

Actually, it could make for an amazing Artistry bonus.

 

[Stalker0]

Japan has to change substantially, but instead of nerfing or delaying his existing abilities, why not use them somewhere else?

I think this is the crux of the debate.

To me its clear that Japan needs nerfs, its less clear whether we have to change the fundamentals of japan or give up those mechanics to another civ.


So that I think is REALLY the focus of this discussion. If people want simple nerfs, I mean we can nerf the science for leveling (or just remove it), we can nerf the dojo yields, we can remove the building culture/faith bonuses, so we have some options there. But if people want to use this as a springboard to radically shake up Japan....so be it. But we really should start with that question as it drives the rest of the conversation.

 

[pineappledan]

To me its clear that Japan needs nerfs, its less clear whether we have to change the fundamentals of japan or give up those mechanics to another civ.

Fair, though I would frame it more as: "Its clear that Japan needs nerfs and France needs buffs it's less clear if those are related.

The crux of my view is that they are related. I will lay out my point of view below:

Spoiler France problems :

• France is just a worse Assyria by way of a worse Japan:
  • @Legen compares Japan and Assyria in his post, because they both have some in their kit. However, gaining from warfare is where the comparison ends. The amount of emphasis, the incentives, and the tools those two civ have to get those yields are completely different. The much more accurate comparison is between Assyria and France:
    • Both civs have a large bonus on city capture in their UA and then 1 smaller bonus. Assyria's /Tech on city capture isn't as strong as France's, but Assyria's to GWs is a helpful economic bonus that adds safety and consistency that France's UA lacks
    • To help them in their conquest, both have a bonus vs cities. France has the stacking 10% per attack per turn while Assyria has a flat 20/40% bonus on his UU.
    • Both civs hit their major power spike in Renaissance. France does this because that is when his last component, the Musketeer, unlocks. Assyria's components have all been unlocked for 2 eras by then, but his stacking global XP from his Royal Library usually caps in Renaissance, so he gets the full 45XP starting around then.
    • However, Assyria has a much easier and consistent early game. He has consistent economic bonuses from his UA and UNW unlocking earlier, He has a stronger and more consistent siege bonus, his global +45XP is also a stronger military bonus than what France gets.
  • France gives the same GWAM and culture rewards as Japan does, but slower and worse. If I wanted to do a hybrid military/CV civ I would pick Japan instead
  • France does the same conquest rewards playstyle as Assyria, but slower and worse. If I wanted to conquer the world for big yields I would pick Assyria instead
• France's kit is weak and hard to use.
  • It requires you to win wars hard enough that you are conquering cities with no economic bonuses until medieval. That means you need to fight -- and win -- against civs, pretty much all of which will have some sort of economic or military advantage that France has no answer for, and all this just to get started. As France, you are given a very large incentive to conquer other civs, but almost no tools to help you do that. It's difficult to claw your way out from under that early disadvantage, and not much fun.
  • The current 40% / on city conquest isn't a suitable bonus for a civ that doesn't have a golden age trigger of some sort. global modifiers are the same bonuses that Golden Ages give, but France has little other synergy for golden ages, because he has no sources of GAPs, and he has no other sources of production. This UA bonus is so unsuitable for France that I went ahead and designed/released an entire civ that uses it better.
  • The 10% stacking bonus is almost impossible to get stacking more than 20% on a unit, because they tend to die if you focus fire them like that anyways.
    • This means that the bonus might only clinch a few extra kills, or save you an extra attack against a handful of units over the course of a game. The only place the stacking gets high enough to matter is against cities, which can absorb 5+ hits in a turn without falling.
    • @azum4roll recently reduced the HP of all cities in the game by quite a bit. This was a good change; it helped all the warmongers conquer more cities, except France. France's UA bonus was predicated on cities needing a lot of hits to take down, and so now his only combat bonus' useful application has lost a lot of value.
    • The only way I see to fix this combat bonus is if the stacks gave a durable bonus that outlived the target. What if, in addition to the stacking % damage bonus, it also gave a yield? Then, even if a unit or city would fall anyways, you are still rewarded for stacking hits.
    • If some utility is not added to this stacking bonus then it should be removed. It's hard to justify its existence otherwise.

Spoiler Japan problems :

• Japan's bonuses do everything with no weaknesses. The result is that he does things without really trying.
  • He has some military bonuses, like his melee units get a unique promotion that gives healing on kills and other combat bonuses
  • He has yields from fighting wars.
    • the / on units levelling,
    • the extra GWAM bonuses he gets from generating GGenerals/GAdmirals
    • Neither bonus actually cares if you're winning either. You just have to fight. Even if you're losing, you still get benefits. It's very safe.
  • He has a bonus that helps him found without it consuming a large part of his power budget.
    • In other words, he has an advantage for getting a religion without being a "religious" civ.
    • It's not a small bonus either, it scales up to +10 per city once everything is unlocked.
    • This is a throwaway line in Japan's UA, but it gives more yields than most UBs at a contemporary tech level. For instance, consider that Arabia's Bazaar gives +2 over the base market, and that's most of what that UB does. Meanwhile, Japan's UA gives +2to ancient buildings.
    • The end result is that Japan can get into the religion game with less investment or sacrifice than other civs, and then go do other things. It's very safe.
• A boost to 10 different building classes is the laziest bonus type on any trait in the game.
  • This is just the bottom of the barrel for design. It's a bonus so uninteresting that when extra yields per turn are given to a UB we don't even document it in the description. It's so boring that when it's given as a policy bonus, VP usually gives at least 2 other bonuses as well.

Spoiler Shared problems :

• Both civs give an identical 50% completion towards your next GArtist/Writer/Musician in your capital when you do X.
• As a result, both civs are trying to do the exact same conversion of warfare into a CV, and they are doing it using the exact same incentive in the same amount. That's weird.
• Of all the civs in the game that could have an emphasis on war converting into cultural bonuses, France is the best candidate. Not Japan. This isn't just France, this is Napoleon leading France. This is the France that fought wars all across the continent and the world to protect its unique, nationalist political experiment. Moreso than Japan -- much much moreso than Oda Nobunaga's Japan -- France is the one who should keep the mantle of CV warmonger

So now that I have laid out the problems as I see them, I will attempt to explain my suggestions:

Spoiler New France UA :

France - Esprit de Corps

• +10% Damage and +1 GGeneral/GAdmiral Point for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• When a Great General/Admiral is born, receive Great Artist, Writer, and Musician Points in your Capital

It's hard to get the stacks to matter against units, because they will die by focus fire even without a bonus to that. Adding a yield on the stacking attack bonus gives you something that persists after the targeted unit is gone. I contemplated +1 XP to the attacking unit per stack, but I think that would get out of hand vs some cities. That stacking bonus would tie into the trigger for GWAMs, which is moved over from Japan. The reward of GWAMs was very fitting for France, but the conquest trigger was too feast or famine, and too much like Assyria.

This also helps tie the Chateau into the UA better, because the chateau gives tile defense, which doesn't support France's conquest-centric UA right now. If the GWAMs are generated just for fighting, then a UI that allows your units to absorb more hits is much more relevant.

Spoiler New Japan UA :

Japan - Sakoku

• Civilizations cannot send trade routes to you unless you have a trade route with them.
• Civilizations' units cannot enter your lands without a Declaration of War or Open Borders.
• Gain +1 Happiness and +10%Great Person Rate in all Cities for each unassigned Trade Route.
  • ie. for each trade slot in excess of your active trade routes

This is a return to the isolationist Japan that was tried before the Shogunate UA was implemented. The previous version of this Sakoku bonus was:

• Civilizations cannot send trade routes to you unless you have a trade route with them.
• Other Civilizations have -50% Tourism towards Japan if they do not have a Trade route with him
• and from units gaining levels

This UA was scrapped because it had some serious problems:

1. the -50% tourism modifier just slowed everyone else down, but didn't help Japan in any way. It didn't feel good to play against, and wasn't noticed by the Japan player
2. You already get a -% tourism malus for civs you had no TRs with, because it denied you the bonus % for TRs. It was a double-punish that other civs had no control over.
3. the on unit levels made your entire early economy dependent on the success of your early scout. You could get huge yields if your scout survived, got the right ruins, and you started on a big landmass with lots of room to explore. It was meant as a combat bonus, but wound up as an early scout bonus, and it was heavily dependent on map roll which rewarded Japan -- the island nation -- directly for being on the largest continent possible. Bad for roleplay.
4. The ultra-early was very sensitive to extra XP given to AI players

The idea of an isolationist Japan wasn't bad, it was the specific implementation.
The yields on levelling were moved to the Dojo, which solved the early game issued and lessened the AI XP issues to a degree. If the tourism malus is removed, that issue is also resolved.
For a civ to have an isolationist bonus, it's preferable to have some overt bonus for internal trade routes, or not trading at all. That's preferable to creating a punishment for other civs that don't trade with you.

While it doesn't necessarily require this part to work, I think it would be really cool if the "isolationist civ" had super-closed borders. That would prevent enemy missionaries from coming in and spreading to you, and would block other things like diplo units from passing through without your say-so. It's a neat utility bonus that would give you more control over the diplo and religious game without direct bonuses to either

Ottomans already give a major reward for internal TRs which gives . This shores up the deficit in those yields that results from not running ITRs.
Instead of rewarding ITRs and competing directly with Ottomans on that, I am proposing that Japan be rewarded for running NO TRs.
In effect, this gives Japan a 3rd target, in addition to external and internal routes. And it gives rewards that are qualitatively different from the from ETRs, or the from ITRs.
Japan becomes more flexible, and less overtly a warfare/CV civ, because his UA % rate bonus boosts ALL GP types. This makes it more acceptable to be a SV civ, or a CV civ.
Japan still has strong abilities for warring on the Dojo, and is incentivized to war with the on levelling, but also has a large passive bonus on the UA that incentivizes isolation.

 

[AndreyK]

This is the France that fought wars all across the continent and the world to protect its unique, nationalist political experiment. Moreso than Japan -- much much moreso than Oda Nobunaga's Japan -- France is the one who should keep the mantle of CV warmonger

In this case this was England who fought wars across the world and influenced it most by it's culture, much, much more than France.

I don't agree that this 2 civs should be tied and both changed radically. I agree that France should be changed more, but I think that Japan needs only small tweaks.

 

[Amask]

Civilizations cannot send trade routes to you unless you have a trade route with them.
"the -50% tourism modifier just slowed everyone else down, but didn't help Japan in any way"
How is this any different?
In many cases this bonus is actually a penalty. I'm denied yields and village/town boosts from other civs' caravans.

Civilizations' units cannot enter your lands without a Declaration of War or Open Borders.
Ok, it's a bit harder for them to spam diplo units to some city states. So what? How is this fun for ME?
This also "just slows everyone else down, but doesn't help Japan in any way".
If you can't found a religion, you might have some control over who spreads to you. Meh. The exact non-founder beliefs you get as a non-founder don't really matter too much in most cases. The best use I see for this is making sure that a neighboring founder gets to convert you if you want good diplomatic relations with them.
Also it might be a little bit easier to keep some CS allies in some niche cases. Also very meh.

Gain +1 Happiness and +10%Great Person Rate in all Cities for each unassigned Trade Route
You're just trading one thing for another thing. This is barely a bonus at all until the late game.
Encouraging a player to not interact with an entire system? To use a favorite phrase of yours - "That's just bad design".

 

[pineappledan]

If you can't found a religion, you might have some control over who spreads to you. Meh. The exact non-founder beliefs you get as a non-founder don't really matter too much in most cases. The best use I see for this is making sure that a neighboring founder gets to convert you if you want good diplomatic relations with them.

If you founded it could save you a ton on inquisitors.

If you didn't found, in addition to being able to control exactly who spreads to you (and therefore what follower beliefs you get), it ensures that ONLY that civ spreads actively to you, which will help you with religious strife

Gain +1 Happiness and +10%Great Person Rate in all Cities for each unassigned Trade Route
You're just trading one thing for another thing. This is barely a bonus at all until the late game.
Encouraging a player to not interact with an entire system? To use a favorite phrase of yours - "That's just bad design".

In case it is unclear, that is +1 happiness in all cities and +10% GP rate in all cities. So if you have 2 open TR slots that's +2 and +20% GP rate in all cities on empire. With just the 3 TRs from pre-medieval techs, that's more than a free Garden in every city. But you need weight that against the benefit of running conventional TRs, and when to do what.

The happiness component is necessary to make sure that the ability counteracts the increased needs (eg. poverty) generated by not running TRs. It could be quite potent during expansion or if you're trying to handle an unhappiness shock.
It doesn't turn TRs off as a mechanic, it effectively gives Japan a 3rd category of destination: No Destination. You can still choose to run ETRs for or ITRs for at any time, but you have an extra lever if you want to use those slots to generate instead.
the Trade blocking ability gives running ETRs the added weight of choosing to allow that civ to send trade back to you.

 

[Legen]

All of your suggestions save from dropping the On buildings are a buff. That is not what the doctor ordered. Even if you moved the Dojo forward, that still means that his kit has pretty much no abilities until late classical.

I get it. People like Japan. He’s a fun civ to play as. That makes it hard to change him for balance reasons. However, it remains a fact that both AI and players have been reporting that Japan overperforms for a while. Japan has to change substantially, but instead of nerfing or delaying his existing abilities, why not use them somewhere else?

To me its clear that Japan needs nerfs, its less clear whether we have to change the fundamentals of japan or give up those mechanics to another civ.

@Legen compares Japan and Assyria in his post, because they both have some in their kit. However, gaining from warfare is where the comparison ends. The amount of emphasis, the incentives, and the tools those two civshave to get those yields are completely different.

I said I'm considering, not that I intent to propose yet. The idea of giving peacetime sources of Great General points is meant to allow Japan to actually do well on isolated starts, given the history of the civ. Take those ideas as a brainstorm for now.

On the need for nerfs, I agree that Japan needs nerfs, but I think those nerfs have to be targeted at the AI side. Thing is, the AI is able to take the "yields on leveling" mechanic to a much higher power than a human player can due to the following reasons:

• Emperor AI (the difficulty used for the statistical tests) has a +20 starting exp and +60% exp generation from handicaps.
• Yields from leveling grows quadratically. The formula is (FormerLevel)^2 * iLevelUpYield, with the current value for iLevelUpYield being 4.

I think that this is allowing AI Japan to push the science on leveling to be stronger than Assyria's kit on this front. AI Japan gets exponentially more science from leveling, and the leveling mechanic has a strong support from the Samurai (+50% exp Quick Study), the Bushido promotion (melee units are more survivable and can attack more often for that juicy 5 base xp per melee attack, plus the possibility of getting Sincerity for another +50% xp modifier) and the civ's overall focus on melee combat (which generates 5xp on attack and 4xp on defense, compared to ranged combat's 2xp on attack and defense). This is why I'm focusing so much on replacing the science here for something else, like faith or great general points; I think AI Japan has essentially an extra UA on top of the kit a human player experiences with Japan.

Checking on the difficulty files now, I'm considering (again, brainstorm) replacing the experience handicaps for an AI combat bonus instead (there's already code for that). The XML code has it set at 0 for all difficulties, and it could replicate the extra combat effectiveness that the extra exp is trying to provide. This would put AI Japan's performance much closer to what humans get, and possibly also adjust AI Sweden and AI Zulu balance discrepancies alongside it.

Of all the civs in the game that could have an emphasis on war converting into cultural bonuses, France is the best candidate. Not Japan. This isn't just France, this is Napoleon leading France. This is the France that fought wars all across the continent and the world to protect its unique, nationalist political experiment. Moreso than Japan -- much much moreso than Oda Nobunaga's Japan -- France is the one who should keep the mantle of CV warmonger

The GWAM on GG/GA birth is thematic with Japan due to the idea of warrior poet/philosopher. The samurai were known to be highly literate in times when the nobility in other cultures weren't, they left death poems before heading to tough battles, commissioned artists to represent their actions in their wars, and left behind extensive written records of their philosophical pursuits. Miyamoto Musashi is one of the most known cases, with his works of art being a national treasure in his homeland. Takezaki Suenaga was a case of commissioning artists for that, with the scrolls being currently studied as a record of the Mongol invasions of Japan. And, on a more recent note, the "Eight Virtues of Bushido" references the works of Nitobe Inazo, a direct descendant of a samurai family who wrote a book about Bushido for a western audience (tourism bomb).

I don't think France has a higher bid on this theme than Japan.

Gain +1 Happiness and +10%Great Person Rate in all Cities for each unassigned Trade Route

An important question: does the AI know how to use it? As I understand, the AI is likely optimized to keep all trade units in use whenever safe to do so, and would need to be trained in order to use your proposed UA. Otherwise, Japan would be a civ without an UA when controlled by the AI.

If you can't ensure a way for the AI to handle it, then your idea won't have a valid sponsor due to the following rule:

AI Must Be Able To Handle Changes
Implementing a balance change requires that the AI is able to handle the change. A sponsor must be able to modify the AI to be able to handle the balance change, if necessary.

 

[pineappledan]

The GWAM on GG/GA birth is thematic with Japan due to the idea of warrior poet/philosopher. The samurai were known to be highly literate in times when the nobility in other cultures weren't, they left death poems before heading to tough battles, commissioned artists to represent their actions in their wars, and left behind extensive written records of their philosophical pursuits. Miyamoto Musashi is one of the most known cases, with his works of art being a national treasure in his homeland. Takezaki Suenaga was a case of commissioning artists for that, with the scrolls being currently studied as a record of the Mongol invasions of Japan. And, on a more recent note, the "Eight Virtues of Bushido" references the works of Nitobe Inazo, a direct descendant of a samurai family who wrote a book about Bushido for a western audience.

Japan has no unique claim to the idea of the warrior-poet. In France's case there are many tales of chivalric honor and courtly love that feature Charlemagne and his paladins. The Arthurian legends are another French example.

In any case, I'm not proposing that Japan get rid of its CV emphasis entirely. I just don't think we should have 2 civs doubled up on this identical bonus. Given the choice between France and Japan as to who should have the 50% GWAM completion when X, I think France is at least as good of a candidate. Japan may have produced its share of art and literature, but it was a cultural backwater on the fringes of East Asian political life for most of its history, while France was at the center of Western Europe's for more than a millenium. I think that makes France the stronger candidate for CV civ.

I think that this is allowing AI Japan to push the science on leveling to be stronger than Assyria's kit on this front. AI Japan gets exponentially more science from leveling, and that has a strong support from the Samurai (+50% exp Quick Study), the Bushido promotion (melee units are more survivable and can attack more often for that juicy 5 base xp per melee attack, plus the possibility of getting Sincerity for another +50% xp modifier) and the civ's overall focus on melee combat (which generates 5xp per attack and 4xp on defense, compared to ranged combat's 2xp on attack and defense). This is why I'm focusing so much on replacing the science here for something else, like faith or great general points; I think AI Japan has essentially an extra UA on top of the kit a human player experiences with Japan.

The AI is not as good as human players at retaining units. I'm not disagreeing with your point re: AI handicaps, but it should be pointed out that those handicaps are there mainly because it allows the AI to match what the humans can do.
Whether it is too much one way or the other is up for debate, but I would be a bit cautious about saying the AI has an unqualified advantage here.

edit: emphasis mine on the bolded suggestion to change the to GG points. The yields are tied to the Dojo, not the promotions, there would need to be some work on the back end of that to support GG or GAd points being given, based on the domain of the unit that gained a level. Just want to point out that this isn't a simple database change.

An important question: does the AI know how to use it? As I understand, the AI is likely optimized to keep all trade units in use whenever safe to do so, and would need to be trained in order to use your proposed UA. Otherwise, Japan would be a civ without an UA when controlled by the AI.

If you can't ensure a way for the AI to handle it, then your idea won't have a valid sponsor due to the following rule:

The AI would not understand it without some work on the decision side to give it some parameter or threshold to consider before sending TRs.
We have special AI conditions in place for other unique abilities that provide significantly altered choices to AIs. The most recent one I can think of it unique unit gifting biases for Germany. But it would add another bit of complexity for implementation. Japan might have a threshold based on if the empire is X % unhappy, or working X number of specialists before it considers not running TRs.

Yet another reason that the old Japan Sakoku ability wasn't well-implemented. I am not aware of any support the AI had in using it.

 

[Legen]

Japan has no unique claim to the idea of the warrior-poet. In France's case there are many tales of chivalric honor and courtly love that feature Charlemagne and his paladins. The Arthurian legends are another French example.

Clarifying, the idea of warrior poet is about the warriors themselves writing poems and philosophy, not about poets and philosophers writing about warriors.

 

[ma_kuh]

Sounds like the whole warrior-poet concept might be better represented by a shareable mechanic, like a policy or belief, and not by any one civ...

 

[Legen]

In any case, I'm not proposing that Japan get rid of its CV emphasis entirely. I just don't think we should have 2 civs doubled up on this identical bonus. Given the choice between France and Japan as to who should have the 50% GWAM completion when X, I think France is at least as good of a candidate. Japan may have produced its share of art and literature, but it was a cultural backwater on the fringes of East Asian political life for most of its history, while France was at the center of Western Europe's for more than a millenium. I think that makes France the stronger candidate for CV civ.

Japan actually had a lot of ideas from the Far East mixing in its lands (outside the Sakoku period), and Europe is often considered to have been a backwater region relative to the Far East for most of its history. France being a cultural center for Europe is a merit in itself, but not necessarily a big one when comparing to contemporary events in the Far East.

The AI is not as good as human players at retaining units. I'm not disagreeing with your point re: AI handicaps, but it should be pointed out that those handicaps are there mainly because it allows the AI to match what the humans can do.
Whether it is too much one way or the other is up for debate, but I would be a bit cautious about saying the AI has an unqualified advantage here.

We already had AI Japan becoming a runaway in the past when the leveling mechanic was part of the UA, being able to vastly outdo a human player with it, so there's a strong case to believe that it is also happening here. Especially given that the Dojo is the only extra source of science for Japan, it is unlikely that the scientific wins are due to any other element of Japan's kit.

edit: emphasis mine on the bolded suggestion to change the to GG points. The yields are tied to the Dojo, not the promotions, there would need to be some work on the back end of that to support GG or GAd points being given, based on the domain of the unit that gained a level. Just want to point out that this isn't a simple database change.

Good point.

 

[Amask]

Gain +1 Happiness and +10%Great Person Rate in all Cities for each unassigned Trade Route

Another thing to consider here is that trade routes are often necessary to spread your corporation.
If you're at war, which you probably will be as Japan, that can take a pretty long time. There will likely be at least a few civs who don't mind DoW'ing you for a price, putting your trade routes at increased risk.
To have reduced access to this bonus during that whole time doesn't sound very fun.