Free Will

[Souron]

What is free will?
What are the necessairy conditions for free will?
Does free will exist?
Can free will exist in a hypothetical world?

Some say that free will is incompatible with determinism.
They argue that there is only one future, that will happen. When you apear to be making a choice, you are only compleating your programming. You are like a machine-- gears click one way, and you do one thing, gears click another way, you do something else.

But a simmilar agruement can be made for an indeterministic world. If everything you do is compleatly random, then you arn't making a choice either. A radioactive issotope cannot be said to have free will.

What about a world where some things are deterministic, and some things are random? This still does not seem to allow for an avenue for free will. Still everything is either random or determined. There is apparently no free will.

Your thoughts?

 

[JerichoHill]

No offense dude, but this topic comes up about once every two weeks

 

[Souron]

Well I was just discussing it in my Adam's apple thread, and I thought it would be better that it had its own thread.

In any case, I could really use a strong arguement one way or another for a philosophy assignment.

 

[Bill3000]

Or you could have bumped up the old topic instead...

Or even better, don't bother in the first place and research it if you actually are curious. Look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy if you have any questions about Philosophy instead of asking people who have no actual clue about Philosophy.

 

[Souron]

Or you could have bumped up the old topic instead...

Or even better, don't bother in the first place and research it if you actually are curious. Look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy if you have any questions about Philosophy instead of asking people who have no actual clue about Philosophy.

But people are more likely to reply to a new thread, were they can keep up with the discussion, rather than an old thread where they would not want to intergect into a discussion that they are not a part of.

Besides, that would require me to actually look for the thread.

But let's stop discussing the mirrits of starting a new thread, and actually talk about the subject at hand. Is it possible to have free will?

 

[angeleyes]

[....] Look at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy if you have any questions about Philosophy instead of asking people who have no actual clue about Philosophy.

Let's close the OP

Free will is a nonsense concept used by people who don't want to think but only want answers.

 

[Perfection]

Free will is an illusion brought out by treating conciousness dualistically.

 

[Masquerouge]

I'm eagerly waiting for Free Will 2.

 

[warpus]

Nondeterminism does not mean that everything is random.

Determinism does mean that you can't have free will, though.

 

[punkbass2000]

Free will is an illusion brought out by treating conciousness dualistically.

Would you expand on that?

 

[Souron]

Nondeterminism does not mean that everything is random.

If you are saying that if some things are diterministic, and other things are random is still called "Nondeterminism", I woun't argue. But that doesn't solve the problem.

Or is there another immage of Nondeterminism that doesn't involve randomness, and reversible causation? Please elaborate.

It seems to me like an event can either have a cause or be random.
Each action maps to one effect. (if you throw a ball then the ball will fly)
If an action seems to lead to two different effects, then their is a hidden variable. If that variable has a cause then the situation is deterministic. If that variable is random then it it nondeterministic and random. There doesn't seem to be a third option involving free will.
So if neither determinism nor randomness randomness cause free will, then free will cannot be.

Determinism does mean that you can't have free will, though.

I'm actually not convinced of this.
Logic is deterministic. But does that inherrently make any logical choice not a choice?

 

[Bill3000]

Logic is deterministic. But does that inherrently make any logical choice not a choice?

Deductive logic is deterministic. Inductive logic isn't.

 

[warpus]

I'm actually not convinced of this.

A deterministic machine can't have free will because you could predict its actions.

If it had free will you wouldn't be able to predict its actions, even in theory.

That's just a logical deduction

 

[Perfection]

Would you expand on that?

Free will like dualism denies a real understanding of conciousness, it basicly says we do things because we choose to, which is lame. They sorta like to go hand in hand in supporting each other because without dualism then the brain should be able to be scientifically explained.

 

[brennan]

Free will is the ability of our brains to make a random decision instead of a determined one.

 

[angeleyes]

Free will is the ability of our brains to make a random decision instead of a determined one.

Wow, am i glad i don't have a free will ...

 

[Souron]

Free will is the ability of our brains to make a random decision instead of a determined one.

But how does the brain choose to make a random or determined decision? Doesn't it do so randomly, or because of preexisting conditions? or is there a third way?

See the ability of our brains to make a random decision is in itself a decision. So your back at square 1.

 

[puglover]

I think the universe is deterministic. When you decide between diet and regular cola, for example, even if it's a split decision, prior influences like the weather, the ball that bounced into your path that morning, will lead you to a particular chain of events. Whether you chose diet or regular, you followed the consequences of a prior series of actions.

 

[Souron]

Free will like dualism denies a real understanding of conciousness, it basicly says we do things because we choose to, which is lame. They sorta like to go hand in hand in supporting each other because without dualism then the brain should be able to be scientifically explained.

But would you say that without free will there can be no dualism?

In other words is free will a suffient condition for dualism?

 

[brennan]

It is a decision, but one with no way of choosing between the possible choices. Make up a list of pro's and cons, everything balances out, OMG OMG what will I do this is an impossible choice? If this were a cartoon a robot would be bursting into flames at the impossiblility of reaching a conclusion <does not compute>. Human Brain? No probs, i'll put my... left sock on first this morning. That's free will.