Frustrated with immortal

[jorissimo]

That's some good GP advice, I never really have a clear plan for those. Although in the Pacal game I had a brainwave and switched to caste and pacifism during a music-fueled GA, and got a bunch of GS that way. But it's not an ingrained habit of mine, I often simply don't think about it. Probably if SB hadn't had philo already I would have bulbed it. But now I get that it would have been worth it regardless because of pacifism.

I feel like I should tell the island story better because I got really unlucky with the barb boats there. Upon resuming the game I immediately switched two cities to settlers and one to a galley to whip them the next turn. I first settled the northern island which had a fish that had already been improved by the Koreans. However, on the turn I settled it, it got pillaged by a barb galley that had been chasing after somebody's workboat. I managed to get away from it with my galley, going north, which was the only way to get out of its reach, but then it just camped on the fish and blocked my galley from going back south to pick up the other settler. Meaning I had to whip a second galley in Angkor Thom, which significantly slowed down the settlement of the southern island. Furthermore, I had to wait until MC to dislodge that barb galley.

The southern island had three barb galleys around it. The fact that it was separated from the mainland by ocean and had ocean fish, meant I could have completely ignored the galleys if I had whipped a WB on the island, which would have taken ages due to slow growth. But sneaking through a workboat from the mainland would have been tricky.

 

[jorissimo]

1000 AD

Spoiler :

I decided to go for the philo-nat route. Switched to Caste and Paci during a golden age. Only managed to get 2 GP, one priest, which I used to extend the golden age. Then none of my cities had enough food to get another GP out before the end of the second GA (they would starve back one pop/turn). But my tech rate is pretty fast now, 1 turned Edu after bulbing it, now trying to get music before Lib to use it for Mil Trad. The others don't seem to be anywhere close. Traded marble from Ragnar and started on the Taj in the capital. AP got built and so I'm spamming Buddhist buildings for the hammers. As you can see I started building a university but I'm not sure Oxford is worth it. I can get some interesting tech trades (Engineering especially). On the geopolitical front, Monty declared war on HC, but probably won't get anywhere.

 

[a pen-dragon]

I managed to get away from it with my galley, going north, which was the only way to get out of its reach

IMO this is a mistake. If you have a Galley standing around and fishing boats are about to be pillaged you should take the fight. Without promotions you should have about a 2/3 chance to win the battle, if you defend.

But sneaking through a workboat from the mainland would have been tricky.

This is not true. You are Creative and the Barbs cannot enter ocean, even in your borders. Thus the WB could have easily slipped by through the north. It would probably have worked to let the Galleys live and let the AI Caravels handle them.

Now about the current state.

As you have noticed chaining Golden Ages where you want to starve out does not work well. There is no reason why the second GA had to happen now.

A side remark about the Taj in GAs: If you complete the Taj during a GA you get an extra GA turn for free. Thus if you would have wanted to trigger the second GA now you should have waited to let the food fill up in your cities and to finish the Taj in the GA.

Now at this stage in the game you should already have though out your path to win. If you want to conquer the world you should start scouting, definitely not build Universities, skip the Coloussus and maybe already start building Phants to upgrade. Even for failgold the Colossus is not really worth it at this point with just 250 , due to the unpredictability when you get it.

If you want to win by space from your current position you should build infrastructure (Oxford) and not Lib Military Tradition. For a space plan the war between Monty and Huayna is bad news, because Huayna has more cities and is more advanced. (Monty does not have Machinery or Civil Service, Huayna has Engineering and Guilds.) Monty will most likely quickly lose his stack and then be overrun by Huayna. In this case the second GA should have been saved to build factories.

If you want to win by space after conquering someone you should first focus on the war and follow the gameplan for conquest and whenever you want just build to space from a dominant position.

In any case you should scout the state of the ongoing war.

The way you played is obviously going into a cuir-rush, so consider the above advice. Also you want to trade for theology (Theocracy) for an additional promotion per unit. Engineering should definitely be traded for, Guilds too, but at lower priority (speeds up Gunpowder, if the Cuirs do not work this is on the way to Rifling).

Concerning Tech coices it would be good to take up the habit of partially researching Lib before picking up whatever prerequisites the tech you want to Lib needs, since that increases your chances to get Lib in a contested race. Libbing something you do not necessarily want is better than letting an AI Lib something.

Lastly this is not the time for your workers to be idle! Nampo is working an unimproved tile, several plains still need an improvement and you are missing many roads. Every tile in your empire should have a road, before you let your workers be idle. Maybe they also should start roading your target's territory in preparation. After this is done they can even be used for scouting pre-war.

 

[Gumbolt]

Had a quick look.
You do love your monasteries. I guess with AP it adds hammers. Only really worth it in capital.
You need music for military tradition and likely compass to bulb lib. Where is the great scientist coming from?
In pacifsm and not actually running any scientists? Hariharalayla for 9 turns? More once GA ends. No real city with huge food surplus.
Lib looks safe as no AI has Edu yet. 9-10+ turns is a long time.

 

[jorissimo]

Had a quick look.
You do love your monasteries. I guess with AP it adds hammers. Only really worth it in capital.
You need music for military tradition and likely compass to bulb lib. Where is the great scientist coming from?
In pacifsm and not actually running any scientists? Hariharalayla for 9 turns? More once GA ends. No real city with huge food surplus.
Lib looks safe as no AI has Edu yet. 9-10+ turns is a long time.

I always build monasteries and temples in the AP religion. It's equivalent to a PH mine, or even plains iron with a forge, for every city.
I switched the cities out of running scientists because I realized I wasn't going to get another one before the end of the golden age. The idea is to switch out of caste + pacifism on the last turn of the GA, right? But I guess it might be worth getting those GP points even if it won't yield a GS during the GA? Btw I don't think bulbing lib is happening since I traded for machinery...

 

[a pen-dragon]

The idea is to switch out of caste + pacifism on the last turn of the GA, right? But I guess it might be worth getting those GP points even if it won't yield a GS during the GA?

Correct in both cases.

I always build monasteries and temples in the AP religion. It's equivalent to a PH mine, or even plains iron with a forge, for every city.

Again it depends on your gameplan. the production from the Monastery pays back in 30 turns, from the temple in 40, a bit less with forges. If the game is over before then it is an effective loss in production. Since they provide other boni I consider it to be worth it if the production can pay back before the game is essentially over.

 

[jorissimo]

Correct in both cases.

Again it depends on your gameplan. the production from the Monastery pays back in 30 turns, from the temple in 40, a bit less with forges. If the game is over before then it is an effective loss in production. Since they provide other boni I consider it to be worth it if the production can pay back before the game is essentially over.

My reasoning is essentially that I can get a bunch of them in now before getting all of the techs for Cuirs. Building wealth will speed up the tech but not the production. Or should I go full elebuild mode already for upgrades later? Not sure what's optimal.

 

[sampsa]

I think you need to completely re-think buildings. It's probably the most common mistake in the game anyway, overbuilding buildings that is.

In cuir games you do NOTHING with universities. Absolutely nothing, it's just 200 down the drain. You do very little with after you've researched the techs you need for cuirs. You can use for upgrades. Yes it is optimal to build lots of units and upgrade them immediately when you can.

AP buildings are not as good as you think. They will pay back if the game lasts that 30/40 turns, but even that doesn't mean that you should build them. They need to pay back better than building a unit.

In cuir games what you need is a granary and that's it really. Barracks and CRE libraries are decent and you've had a long time to build it so you probably will have it in most cities. Stables are already a bit of a luxury and there is IMO no point in trying to build them everywhere. Not every unit needs to start with 5XP. My opinion is that forges close to never make an impact in cuir games. The stronger your position is the weaker they become (because you are winning sooner). Markets, courthouses etc are mostly meaningless.

 

[sampsa]

Immortal Shadow Game: Cyrus

1300AD finish? No. :pat: To the end

forums.civfanatics.com

In this game I had +50 cavalry 1000AD (with NTT even). You haven't even started cuir production at the same date... No worries, you will win, it's just that there are a lot of things you could do better.

 

[jorissimo]

Some bad news: tried to attack Charly with about 30 cuirs in 1180, which normally would have been more than enough, but due to a series of careless mistakes on my part, I ended up losing more than half of the 50 cuirs I had built by 1200-something, and there is no real perspective on winning this war right now. He proved to be an extremely tough nut to crack. So I'm going to go back to the 1180 save and try again, now making sure to declare, wait for his stack to appear and then taking it out in the field. Then I will keep my stack together at all cost, actually taking time to heal, before taking the next city. Really a case of being impatient and then just full on tilting. It could have been an almost perfect game, but I guess it won't be. Oh well. At least I'm learning a lot.

 

[Gumbolt]

It was always going to be an interesting save. How did you lose half the cuirs? Did you locate his stack before you attacked? Never attack big stacks on hill when protective? Were they all C2/3? You want at least 2-3 promotions.

 

[jorissimo]

It was always going to be an interesting save. How did you lose half the cuirs? Did you locate his stack before you attacked? Never attack big stacks on hill when protective? Were they all C2/3? You want at least 2-3 promotions.

It was a combination of factors really. First of all I didn't switch to Vassalage, only to Theo. Second, I declared with 20 cuirs at the border (I had a total of 30 but the others were still on the move), and took his southern city instantly. I then put some of the arriving units together with a part of the stack on the jungle patch above the easter Korean city, where it got hit with siege and a big stack. I ended up winning that battle but it cost me like 9 cuirs or so. I should really just have reloaded at that point, and waited for his stack to come out and then hitting it myself. I still had plenty of cuirs, but his capital had like 20 units in it (which had been there since before I declared), had a lot of culture around it and was spaced far apart both from my border and from the city I conquered off him. Furthermore, it's on a river, and to avoid it you have to go around the city. This was terrible for the supply lines. I was getting impatient, thinking that it would be easy now (as it had been for previous cuir stomps on immortal at an equivalent point in the war). I promoted a bunch of cuirs with flanking 1-2 and just started hitting the cap, thinking the breakthrough would come soon. Truth is, I didn't get any good odds against the highly promoted Landsknechts, and he would occasionally hit me with a catapult or two. The damage per unit would be low but still, units being wounded severely reduces their odds.

So for next time, I will try to have at least 30 units at the border before declaring, and then I'll sit back, scouting for his stack every turn and taking it out in the field when it appears. Only then I will focus on conquests, and will only move on the cap when I have a stack of 30 full-health cuirs that can move as one. Nevertheless, it's still going to be very tough.

 

[Gumbolt]

If you are going to attack an AI at least work out where the AI's stack is.

Personally i would of picked a weaker target first. As HRE is a protective civ and was the strongest here.

SB, Aztec and Vking look much softer targets. Least till you have 30-50 cuirs.

Sometimes better to let the AI stack come to you first. If you attack with 20 units and his stack is 20 units you needed much more cuirs. Where I doubt Aztecs or SB have a stack of 5-10 units.

Can we see the save before you attack next time.

 

[jorissimo]

If you are going to attack an AI at least work out where the AI's stack is.

Personally i would of picked a weaker target first. As HRE is a protective civ and was the strongest here.

SB, Aztec and Vking look much softer targets. Least till you have 30-50 cuirs.

Sometimes better to let the AI stack come to you first. If you attack with 20 units and his stack is 20 units you needed much more cuirs. Where I doubt Aztecs or SB have a stack of 5-10 units.

Can we see the save before you attack next time.

Hmm yeah maybe a weaker target would be better. I'm never very sure when to go for the leader and when to go for a weaker civ. Had some bad experiences leaving the strongest for last. Could go Aztecs first. Also when I whip my cities down how do I avoid crashing my economy? Is it just mass cuirs all the way now?

Edit: And yes, will post the 1180 save when I have the opportunity.

 

[a pen-dragon]

First of all I didn't switch to Vassalage, only to Theo.

There is very little difference between units with 5xp and 7xp, even for Charismatic leaders. Both will only have two promotions. For this reason I stay in bureaucracy, except the in the rare cases when the unit maitenence gets out of hand and the game is not won yet. Adopting Vassalage for only the xp-bonus is a mistake as soon as theocracy is available.

Regarding the attack strategy, you want to attack only if you think you can take the city this turn, except if you will have neglibible losses. Any surviving enemy unit will get xp, maybe promote and heal quickly, making follow-up attacks harder. A similar line of thought leads to the conclusion that flanking promotions are usually useless. You want to kill units and flanking does not help to do this. If you have enough units to take out damaged defenders left over after attacking with flanking units you have enough units to just hit the city with units promoted in the combat line. Granted flanking may increases withdrawl odds, but at the cost of winning odds. Also a unit that withdrew will need to heal a few turns before becomeing useful again, slowing any attack.

I assume your scouting discovered both his big stack and the stack in the capital. IMHO you were not ready for this attack, either wait or choose another target. As soon as the AI gets attacked they usually start spamming units, thus the key to a sucessful attack is speed. As I understand it you got held up after taking only one city. At this point the AI will probably be producing enough troops to hold against your attack, thus you should take peace ASAP, before you lose your army, and try to use it against a softer target (here Monty or SB).

So for next time, I will try to have at least 30 units at the border before declaring, and then I'll sit back, scouting for his stack every turn and taking it out in the field when it appears. Only then I will focus on conquests, and will only move on the cap when I have a stack of 30 full-health cuirs that can move as one.

If you know where the stack is at the beginning of the war you can plot out its possible routes towards you. Since speed is key you should try to take (weak) cities before the stack arrives, if possible on the way of the enemy stack, and try to keep your stack on useable roads. To speed things up I think you should at least consider to take out the capitals defences with a spy, since that would probably significantly speed up your attack, at the cost of 2-3 spies and 1-2 turns of science. Espionage would also get you city visibility and help with scouting.

Hmm yeah maybe a weaker target would be better. I'm never very sure when to go for the leader and when to go for a weaker civ. Had some bad experiences leaving the strongest for last.

Cuirassiers are fine before Grenadiers and especially Rifles come along. If you want to go to war with Cuirs anything before that does not really matter, so attacking the Civs closest to these units first does have its merits. Frequently these are the ones with bigger empires and more troops. OTOH Civs with weaker military can be attacked earlier. IMHO if the good techers will still not have these techs after you are done with a weaker target I would go after a weaker target first. Also in the war against a weaker target you will need less units and lose less, as well as getting additional production capabilities, meaning that the number of units will increase significantly during the war.

Also when I whip my cities down how do I avoid crashing my economy? Is it just mass cuirs all the way now?

Except your Capital all cities should be whipped. In this case the Capital will be comfortably 2-turning Cuirs, efficient whipping can not get a faster production than one every two turns. Your economy can recover after you win the war. As long as your units are not on strike the economy should not be prioritized during wartime.

 

[jorissimo]

There is very little difference between units with 5xp and 7xp, even for Charismatic leaders. Both will only have two promotions. For this reason I stay in bureaucracy, except the in the rare cases when the unit maitenence gets out of hand and the game is not won yet. Adopting Vassalage for only the xp-bonus is a mistake as soon as theocracy is available.

Regarding the attack strategy, you want to attack only if you think you can take the city this turn, except if you will have neglibible losses. Any surviving enemy unit will get xp, maybe promote and heal quickly, making follow-up attacks harder. A similar line of thought leads to the conclusion that flanking promotions are usually useless. You want to kill units and flanking does not help to do this. If you have enough units to take out damaged defenders left over after attacking with flanking units you have enough units to just hit the city with units promoted in the combat line. Granted flanking may increases withdrawl odds, but at the cost of winning odds. Also a unit that withdrew will need to heal a few turns before becomeing useful again, slowing any attack.

I assume your scouting discovered both his big stack and the stack in the capital. IMHO you were not ready for this attack, either wait or choose another target. As soon as the AI gets attacked they usually start spamming units, thus the key to a sucessful attack is speed. As I understand it you got held up after taking only one city. At this point the AI will probably be producing enough troops to hold against your attack, thus you should take peace ASAP, before you lose your army, and try to use it against a softer target (here Monty or SB).


If you know where the stack is at the beginning of the war you can plot out its possible routes towards you. Since speed is key you should try to take (weak) cities before the stack arrives, if possible on the way of the enemy stack, and try to keep your stack on useable roads. To speed things up I think you should at least consider to take out the capitals defences with a spy, since that would probably significantly speed up your attack, at the cost of 2-3 spies and 1-2 turns of science. Espionage would also get you city visibility and help with scouting.


Cuirassiers are fine before Grenadiers and especially Rifles come along. If you want to go to war with Cuirs anything before that does not really matter, so attacking the Civs closest to these units first does have its merits. Frequently these are the ones with bigger empires and more troops. OTOH Civs with weaker military can be attacked earlier. IMHO if the good techers will still not have these techs after you are done with a weaker target I would go after a weaker target first. Also in the war against a weaker target you will need less units and lose less, as well as getting additional production capabilities, meaning that the number of units will increase significantly during the war.


Except your Capital all cities should be whipped. In this case the Capital will be comfortably 2-turning Cuirs, efficient whipping can not get a faster production than one every two turns. Your economy can recover after you win the war. As long as your units are not on strike the economy should not be prioritized during wartime.

That's all very helpful advice, thanks. Right now I'm tending towards attacking a weaker civ first. Going after SB will secure my northern border. However, the Aztecs are super backward and have a stack in Incan territory. Diplomatically and military it would be very cheap to go after them first. It would also enlarge my border with Charly and give me better access to his cities. Perhaps most importantly, it would reduce the chances of Monty vassaling to HC, which could make the latter a runaway. Regarding Charly's tech path, he's going the economics route iirc, hoping for Willem syndrome but hard to tell right now.

Edit: btw, in the Maya game I went after SB and Monty before attacking Charly, who was the leader (I know, the exact same neighbors as in this game!). Admittedly, I hit cavalry and upgraded everything right after taking SB's capital, as my tech rate was much faster. By the time I got to Charly I had cannons.

 

[sampsa]

Even though your attack is a bit late, I'd always start from the nearest, most easily assimilated AI. Attacking the strongest AI first only if that leader AI is about to gain some tech after which he/she is very hard to take out.

the Aztecs are super backward and have a stack in Incan territory.

Yeah 100% start from there.

 

[pigswill]

Worth remembering that cuirs do flanking damage to cannon outside cities so its better to cuir attack stacks outside cities. On the other hand if you've got cannon its better to attack stacks inside cities because of CR promos (and bombarded defences).

 

[jorissimo]

Here is the 1180 save. I also found a 1240 autosave but I know it was bad so not sure how educational it will be.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Already in 1180 there are some things that are IMO terribly wrong in a build up to war.

You built Sankore in 1100AD, while you should have been building units. It does provide you some science but let me emphasize again that while building up for war the economy is at best a secondary concern. All that science currently does nothing for you.

You are not scouting Charlies territory, maybe we were not clear about what we mean by scouting. This is not simply revealing the terrain and cities but most importantly lifting the fog of war, seeing where, what kind, how many units there are. All this is vital information in planning an attack, dictating where and with how many units you can reasonably attack.

Your workers are again doing useless stuff, building forts you will never need before flight. You did not even road your entire empire. And to reiterate: workers that have nothing better to do can (and should) go scouting.

Some minor mistakes are that for this war from the moment you select a target that target should be spied on, you also built longbows for both island cities (as MPs?). They do nothing for you since those cities should be whipped to the ground (should not exceed size 6) and then MPs are useless. I think that HE should not have been built in the capital, that city is already sufficiently good, but instead somewhere with food (and the production to build it in reasonable time, I would suggest Hari), since cuirs can reasonably be whipped in the HE city.

In this case some recon (that I did via WB because no scouts were in position to do the job) reveals that Charly has a stack of about 25 units in his capital, and else only a few units per city, in total he only has 3 landsknecht. Also the Capital has 105% defences, for that city I would definitely use a spy to cause a revolt. After attacking his stack can not attack one of your cities in one turn, but in two, so I would hold my units back, wait for it to come and whipe it on turn 2 or 3, depending where he goes. After whiping his stack I would go through the Capital to Prague, the City with Chichen Itza, and take it. Those additional 25% defences are painful. If the stack does not move bypass it and go take Prague. Also take Ulm with reinforcements to use the roads. For that plan (remember that we do not want to stop to heal too early) around 35, better 40+, Cuirs would be needed. You could have that number in about 3 turns. Since the plan is to wait for his stack to come not all of these have to be in the stack when attacking.

About 1240, such a stack in such a city should not be attacked with your current force, go attack something different.