Frustrated with immortal

[Fippy]

Cuir attacks are a bit more complicated than HAs.
Cultural city defenses are higher, AIs usually have a stack with often enuf catapults in them to hurt you.
Cuirs are strong..but collateral can make them vulnerable to knights & pikes.

Having one with visibility range promos is always great (could in theory also be a chariot or HA).
Ideally you would always like to know which enemy units are in hitting range.

Losing fights against fortified pikes & longbows in cities is common, and having 2x the amount of attackers always recommended.
With mounted units, almost every city or stack attack should clear out all enemies.
While siege makes slower progress possible..like luring more and more enemy units into a city, and destroying them when defenses are bombarded down.

 

[jorissimo]

So I'm trying again right now and decided to go after Monty first. However, on turn 2 of the war the AP stopped it. What is recommended in such a situation? Defy the vote? Or accept and wait?

 

[a pen-dragon]

I (almost) never defy those resolutions, because it causes unhappiness and removes the +2 bonus on buildings. Just vote along the lines of what you want and hope it works. Also try to keep an eye out on when the next vote is, and declare war with as much time until the next vote as possible.

 

[jorissimo]

Monty vassaled to Inca on the turn the peace treaty ran out... But I have over 50 cuirs and closing in on rifling, so either I quickly take out SB or I go straight for Charly.

 

[jorissimo]

1370 AD

Spoiler :

As I said, the AP stopped the war with Monty. Then I continued my buildup until I had about 50 cuirs, after which I switched most cities to wealth and started teching towards rifling, in order to upgrade the cuirs. I had the opportunity to trade for Economics and Constitution, but I did not want to trade away my military techs just yet, so opted not to. Ragnar has Steel btw. I traded Mil Trad to him in exchange for Chemistry. Charly has cuirs of his own now.

The turn I was able to cancel the peace treaty with Monty, he vassaled to HC. So I had to switch targets. I decided to go after SB. As you can see, I wiped him clean off the map in a handful of turns, and his land is full of mature towns. After finishing Rifling, I will upgrade as many cuirs as possible and resume war production mode. Should be able to get to 70-80 cuirs/cav in no time.

All the aforementioned diplomatic events slowed me down substantially. Still, I have 19 cities of my own, of which all but one are free of home country yearning. The tech situation could be better but I feel like the road to victory is still clear.

 

[a pen-dragon]

After finishing Rifling, I will upgrade as many cuirs as possible and resume war production mode.

Cuirs do well against anything pre Rifles and while Cavs are a bit stronger they will have great difficulties against (Garrison III) Rifles. Either you attack Charly ASAP (problem: needs more troops) or you will have horrendous losses or need siege. Maybe he already is on Replacable Parts - Rifling, in which case it almost is too late. I think that, again, you did focus too much on economy, your cities should still be producing cuirs against Charly. Really the only troops where a Cav rush is significantly stronger than a Cuir rush are Grenadiers. I would definitely spy on Charly, find out what he researches, and if he is not going for Rifling he can be attacked. This probably has a higher priority than finishing Rifling.

Alternatively you could go after Huayna who is further away from Rifling, or go to space comfortably.

Re: Micro your cities should be working coast over plains farms while not building units. Admittedly at this point in the game it does not matter that much.

 

[jorissimo]

Cuirs do well against anything pre Rifles and while Cavs are a bit stronger they will have great difficulties against (Garrison III) Rifles. Either you attack Charly ASAP (problem: needs more troops) or you will have horrendous losses or need siege. Maybe he already is on Replacable Parts - Rifling, in which case it almost is too late. I think that, again, you did focus too much on economy, your cities should still be producing cuirs against Charly. Really the only troops where a Cav rush is significantly stronger than a Cuir rush are Grenadiers. I would definitely spy on Charly, find out what he researches, and if he is not going for Rifling he can be attacked. This probably has a higher priority than finishing Rifling.

Alternatively you could go after Huayna who is further away from Rifling, or go to space comfortably.

Re: Micro your cities should be working coast over plains farms while not building units. Admittedly at this point in the game it does not matter that much.

It's a bit of an awkward position. Going to space gives me the empire building experience I'm craving. Would also require less micro. On the other hand, I have too many units to just let them sit around. Attacking HC-Monty could draw Charly in and leave me very exposed to attacks. Charly is even tougher now. But if I whip a Cuir everywhere next turn, finishing Rifling some other time, I'll have another 13 or so additional units. Another alternative could be going to Steel and whipping cannons. But Charly can research Steel. Tough dilemma.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Seeing that you are not an AI and have more production there is no way you could lose a prepared war against a single AI on equal tech if you use siege units, barring MAJOR mistakes. Dogpiles really are the only tricky part at this point. Meaning that Cannons against Cannons is absolutely no problem.

Also Charly can not plot at pleased. Basically unless one of you goes out of buddhism he can not attack you.

 

[Gumbolt]

So for his capital. You had 8 or so catapults sitting in your border city. Knights would of been annoying but 8 catapults can serious injure a large city stack. Overall I would not be attacking a city with 20 defenders as that is likely his main stack. Just move and attack the city 2-3 tiles away. Make his stack leave the city.

Aztecs would of been an easier target. Never attack a turn before an AP vote. Makes no sense.

If he can't attack at pleased he is no threat.

 

[jorissimo]

So for his capital. You had 8 or so catapults sitting in your border city. Knights would of been annoying but 8 catapults can serious injure a large city stack. Overall I would not be attacking a city with 20 defenders as that is likely his main stack. Just move and attack the city 2-3 tiles away. Make his stack leave the city.

Aztecs would of been an easier target. Never attack a turn before an AP vote. Makes no sense.

If he can't attack at pleased he is no threat.

Yeah forgot about the cats completely in that session. Btw I hadn't even realized those AP votes were scheduled, from experience I felt like they were triggered the moment I invaded someone. But good to know that's not how it works.

 

[jorissimo]

1450 AD

Spoiler :

The province of East Khmer is now a fact. Monty is left with 1-2 island cities in the polar south. I'm going to leave him there. HC hasn't sent any troops yet, even though he has cuirs (heck, even Monty had them). He seems to be a pushover with Willem syndrome. The Vikings, on the other hand, are now the tech leaders. They have Steel and Rifling and can research Steam Power. I currently have 60 cuirs. AP vote is like 5 turns away. So the timing is tough. If the war is ended by AP, I would have to wait another 10 turns. I probably won't be in a position to attack Ragnar right now. The question is if I can get HC down before he gets Rifling. Otherwise I might have to tech all the way to tanks. Or just spam cannons.

 

[jorissimo]

Played a few more turns (I'm really pressed for time these days). I took one Inca city and might have had time to get a second one before the AP vote, but all of a sudden, a big Inca stack popped out of literal nowhere, from Charly's land. I could not see how many units were in it (none of my spies were close enough to check it out), and it would have conquered the Jewish holy city on the next turn. I knew I wouldn't be able to react before the AP vote as almost all of my units were wounded. I didn't want to lose a city with the war being forced to end on the next turn by the AP, so I sued for peace. I'm currently building cannons to try a second time after the treaty runs out. Techwise I'm thinking of going communism and democracy in case I need the production. But not sure if that's the best path.

 

[Gumbolt]

Looks fine. Just keep whipping cuirs. I don't think the incoming stack will be that big. No way Incan's can fight off 50-60 cuirs.He will lose 3-4 cities and capitulate.Main problem might he has a vassal and refuses to capitulate.

If your mini stack got wiped out that is not a big issue. Do use HRE's roads. You can attack from inside his borders. So there was no need to land on that jungle tile with no road.

Generally don't leave mini stacks for the AI to attack. Go with 20-30 units. Then split once you know the AI has no big stack left. Base your stack size on how many units you think might be roaming.

In terms of AP. Once you control enough cities it's not a major issue.(Albeit they have 770 votes). You can raze the AP building but Cuzco is a nice city. Hopefully for Vikings when you get there you can attack with 3-4 stacks and the AP vote timer won't matter. One lost AP vote won't kill it.

Maybe save HRE to last? For HRE the goal would be to declare and let his stack attack you. Kill it in the open.

 

[jorissimo]

Honestly at this point I feel like I might just space out. I'm getting kinda sick of this AP dynamic and kinda tired of the time-consuming military logistics and micro that have dominated the game since like T100. Monty's land has very few cottages and can be spammed with SP workshops. Nothing can really happen to me with 24 cities.

 

[sampsa]

I don't think you are required to finish the game. You've learned something.

What I don't really get is why not just finish rifling and upgrade to cavs. Stronger units take less damage and things are easier. Do you need cannons? Not really. I would've just finished rifling, turn tech off, upgrade all.

You keep building buildings. I certainly wouldn't build a library, lighthouse or barracks at this point. Maybe you can make the case for granary. Just build units, it seriously is that simple! Nothing else matters.

 

[jorissimo]

What I don't really get is why not just finish rifling and upgrade to cavs. Stronger units take less damage and things are easier. Do you need cannons? Not really. I would've just finished rifling, turn tech off, upgrade all.

I believe somebody said earlier that it wasn't worth upgrading to cavs because they do badly against rifles. But I guess if that happens I can bring along cannons. There's just this nagging fear of going all in on war, not making it or being slowed down too much by a combination of factors, including AP, and then falling back in tech. Which may not even be likely with my current play style, but it's happened enough times in the past to make me slightly paranoid about it.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Upgrading Cuirs to Cavs rarely is worth it. That does not mean that getting Rifling to get Cavs is a bad decision, IMHO some (newly built) Cavs to take out top defenders along with leftover Cuirs is the way to go, although I would in most cases prefer 2 Cuirs over 1 Cav, meaning that again troops>econ. Just Tech to Rifling without slowing down on building Cuirs. After that upgrading Cuirs to Cavs competes against further research and provides little gain, so I only do it if I plan to win on the tech level that has been reached. Also obviously a cav is better than a cuir.

Going to War against someone with Rifles with Cavs is possible, you just need enough troops. Taking out Rifles in the field is not much trouble, 50+% odds are obtained with 5xp units, promoted to pinch. The only problem is defenders in a city. Depending on the city (hills, culture) and the Rifles promotions I estimate losses at about 1 (40% culture, flat, CG1 Rifles) to 3 (80% culture, hills, CG3 Rifles) Cavs per Rifle. At this point in the game I estimate about 3-5 defenders/city + whatever the AI can build in reinforcements. Basically any such attack will incure (sometimes huge) losses, that does not mean that it is impossible. With your current empire that should be doable. In this game Charly who has cultural defences of 60-80% and a few cities on hills, with protective Rifles, is close to the worst scenario, this is the context in which I made my above statement.

[...] and then falling back in tech.

At this point this is not really a problem. You have three times as many cities as the AI, with Communism Research is not a problem. Also any AI can be taken out with Tanks and fighters/bombers (even Future era AI with all units unlocked), thus research for such war games is only mandatory up to industialism and flight, even radio is optional.

Really if you have three times the size of the AI and about tech parity you can choose your victory condition freely, except Culture, that would be slow, and Diplo, which does only depend on diplo (still possible in this game). So basically you can choose dom/conquest as war victories or space as builder/econ victory, the AI will not be able to stop you.

 

[sampsa]

Upgrading Cuirs to Cavs rarely is worth it. That does not mean that getting Rifling to get Cavs is a bad decision, IMHO some (newly built) Cavs to take out top defenders along with leftover Cuirs is the way to go, although I would in most cases prefer 2 Cuirs over 1 Cav, meaning that again troops>econ. Just Tech to Rifling without slowing down on building Cuirs. After that upgrading Cuirs to Cavs competes against further research and provides little gain, so I only do it if I plan to win on the tech level that has been reached. Also obviously a cav is better than a cuir.

You are clearly a strong player but I have to disagree with this one. Well, I think the disagreement is with further research. To me there is no further research, because it's meaningless, thus you suddenly have lots of excess to be used. Cuir -> cav upgrade makes sure you win more fights and maybe even more importantly raises your power to capitulate all AIs asap.

It's also possible that you understand the position better, I just took a glance and would assume it's pretty easy to crush em all with 50 cavs, and it's pretty easy to get to 100 cavs in say 10T.

 

[a pen-dragon]

You are clearly a strong player but I have to disagree with this one. Well, I think the disagreement is with further research. To me there is no further research, because it's meaningless, thus you suddenly have lots of excess to be used. Cuir -> cav upgrade makes sure you win more fights and maybe even more importantly raises your power to capitulate all AIs asap.

I frequently prefer to go to space than to conquer the world, due to me finding it less tedious (It takes less real time to go to space than to conquer the world). Thus I will have to do some research, resulting in my statement. Obviously my playstile does introduce a bias how I view a situation.

So in the following lets say that there is no further research.

I do not think that the additional strength is that much better, since Cuirs will attack after Cavs, and thus attack weaker troops. IMO the increased power is the main benefit.

I agree that in this situation teching up to Rifling and then stopping research is probably the fastest (in #turns) way to finish the game. Even in this case it is probably more efficient to do some espionage with the Gold, to take out defences, OTOH this adds more tedium to the game. Upgrading Cuirs has a lower priority. Then again directly upgrading and skipping the espionage might be better, I do not know.

If one has democracy (for whatever reason, in most games going for democracy at any time is a mistake) buying Cavs (<360 /cav, if one puts hammers into it first ) might even beat upgrading Cuirs (80 /cav ) (If one has the Mids PS beats US in almost any war). Buving a new Cav costs about 4 times as much as upgrading a Cuir, but provides a new unit. Since a Cuir provides 12000 power and a cav 15000, upgrading a Cuir increases the power by 3000. To match a new Cavalry one would need to upgrade 5 cuirs. Thus buying cavs is more efficient at increasing the power.

So while it is the easiest to manage, IMHO upgrading Cuirs to Cavs is a comparatively inefficient way to spend surplus gold.

 

[jorissimo]

1620 AD

Spoiler :

Potential nightmare scenario unfolding. Decided to go space for the reason @a pen-dragon mentioned above, it takes less real time (I was going to use the exact same expression!). However: a couple of contingencies happened along the way. First, after the treaty with HC ran out, I attacked again without building any additional units, got another city and he capitulated. But that made Charly drop to cautious. And now the situation wants that he is running away with the tech tree (currently has Artillery and Destroyers). And, to make matters worse, he has been plotting for a while, with substantial buildup in his capital. I'm not sure if I'll get the proper military techs to stop him in time. Going Railroad now for Machine Guns and actual railroads. After that probably Assembly Line. I'm closing in on him in terms of bpt (now almost equal to him at 100%), but again, fearing it might be too little, too late. Oh, and btw, Pusan flipped to him, despite my mini stack of cuirs that had been stationed there.