FTS-02 The Immortal One
- Thread starter Conroe
- Start date
mike p
King
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- Mar 2, 2005
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I agree with sooooo about the third one. We start with mining, which makes those grassland gems the equivalent of instant towns. Huge starting research potential. Just need to build a worker and off we go.
I don't really care so much about stone. It's nice to have for the Pyramids, but I don't think we're going to be able to build that many wonders anyway. I'm also not sold on the coast in general, though that looks like an awesome start. The nice thing about being in the interior for a OCC is that your cultural borders will encompass more land, which means you have a better shot of grabbing strategic resources as the game progresses.
I don't really care so much about stone. It's nice to have for the Pyramids, but I don't think we're going to be able to build that many wonders anyway. I'm also not sold on the coast in general, though that looks like an awesome start. The nice thing about being in the interior for a OCC is that your cultural borders will encompass more land, which means you have a better shot of grabbing strategic resources as the game progresses.
Welcome aboard, adamlan! We now have a full roster.
I looked for a coastal start for a couple of reasons. Somebody mentioned having the Great Lighthouse would be advantagous. But, it also provides a measure of safety in war time, as there probably won't be any attacks from the sea.
Having said that, there is no reason that we must go with any of the starts that I have posted. Your point about potentially more resources is 100% correct! I am not opposed to rolling a few more (interior) starts. I will happily go along with whatever the team decides.
I'm partial to the first and the fourth ones. The fourth one is probably my favorite, since it has so much long term potential. Four food resources is a big deal in an OCC, and 3 of them are unique (extra health). The sugar will eventually be extra health, and we will be able to trade one of the clams, the dye and the gems away. Plus, it looks like we would be able to setup a chokepoint atop a forrested hill for defense, should the need arise. If only it had stone ...mike p said:
I think the Pyramids are very important. Switching to Representation early will give us a couple more badly needed happy faces until the globe is constructed. Plus, there is the added benefit of the extra beakers once we start running specialists. With stone, there is a good chance that we would snag the Pyramids.mike p said:
I looked for a coastal start for a couple of reasons. Somebody mentioned having the Great Lighthouse would be advantagous. But, it also provides a measure of safety in war time, as there probably won't be any attacks from the sea.
Having said that, there is no reason that we must go with any of the starts that I have posted. Your point about potentially more resources is 100% correct! I am not opposed to rolling a few more (interior) starts. I will happily go along with whatever the team decides.
mike p
King
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 705
The problem with #4 is that it is very hammer poor. There's only one hill.
And while #5 is interesting in that we appear to be blocked off by land, it also means that we might not be able to hook up any resources on the other side of the mountains - we'd need either a river or to hook it up through another civ.
#3 has 2 food bonuses and plenty of hills, along with a river for commerce bonuses. It's got good everything.
Would the Great Lighthouse be that advantageous? Two bonus trade routes will probalby mean 2-6 commerce, which is nice, but we'd get a better bonus from merging a great scientist (6 beakers and a hammer). In the time it takes to build the wonder, we could have a couple of scientists working instead giving us beakers and still letting the city build stuff like units, a granary, or whatever.
We need to be selecitve about what wonders to pursue. Off the top of my head, I might see going after the following, (in order from most to least needed):
Pyramids - will definitely be helpful, especially for the Great Engineer points, which we can then use to rush the GL
Great Library - very helpful, IMO.
Oracle - obviously useful since it comes early and allows us to turn hammers into research.
Colossus - if we have bronze and no higher immediate priorities, it's probably a good investment, but we won't get much bonus commerce with only one city
Stonehenge, merely for the GPP, only since it is so cheap, and there may not be anything else much better to build early
Am I on the right track here?
And while #5 is interesting in that we appear to be blocked off by land, it also means that we might not be able to hook up any resources on the other side of the mountains - we'd need either a river or to hook it up through another civ.
#3 has 2 food bonuses and plenty of hills, along with a river for commerce bonuses. It's got good everything.
Would the Great Lighthouse be that advantageous? Two bonus trade routes will probalby mean 2-6 commerce, which is nice, but we'd get a better bonus from merging a great scientist (6 beakers and a hammer). In the time it takes to build the wonder, we could have a couple of scientists working instead giving us beakers and still letting the city build stuff like units, a granary, or whatever.
We need to be selecitve about what wonders to pursue. Off the top of my head, I might see going after the following, (in order from most to least needed):
Pyramids - will definitely be helpful, especially for the Great Engineer points, which we can then use to rush the GL
Great Library - very helpful, IMO.
Oracle - obviously useful since it comes early and allows us to turn hammers into research.
Colossus - if we have bronze and no higher immediate priorities, it's probably a good investment, but we won't get much bonus commerce with only one city
Stonehenge, merely for the GPP, only since it is so cheap, and there may not be anything else much better to build early
Am I on the right track here?
Your point about lack of hammers on start 4 is certainly valid.mike p said:
Start #1 (after a Lighthouse) will have 13 excess food (2 for city center, 4 from pigs, 7 from fresh water lake). I count 15 base hammers (2 from city center, 4 from stone quarry, 4 plains hill, 3 grass hill, 2 from forests) with maybe 2 more after clearing the fog. The city would eat 4 of the excess food to work those hammer tiles, leaving 9 for specialists and growth.
That compares to 15 excess food from start #4, which only has 6 hammers. So you are right, #4 is probably a non-starter.
Start #3 (after a Lighthouse) will have 8 excess food (2 for city center, 3 from clams, 3 from corn), 5 of which would be needed to work the 4 hills. I counted at least 20 hammers (2 from city center, 9 from 3 grass hills, 4 plains hill, 2 gem mines, and 3 more from forests), with potential for 3-5 more hammers under the fog. Wow! That is a lot of hammers, but I'm concerned about the lack of food.
Both starts suffer from a lack of variety in health resources. This is the big advantage that #4 offered.
If we want wonders then number 4 is useless until lumbermills (i.e. useless). Start 1 will probably build the pyramids slightly faster than start 3, but start 3 will build everything else faster and have a (much) better science rate. Start 3 is basically a dream start - the "lack" of food can be compensated by it having more land than 1 and 4 and being on a river, which lets us irrigate the grassland for 3 0 1 tiles. For me it's start 3 no contest. We can trade the gems away for health resources.
Well, we haven't heard from Methos, but three players have voted for start #3. So, I guess we'll go with that one ...
The game settings
Our leader
Our Start
Roster:
Conroe
Methos
mike p
sooooo
adamlan
I'll start us off with 20 turns and then we will go to a 10 turn rotation after that. It'll be some boring turns the first go 'round, but it will give us a chance to discuss the tech path.
I'm thinking of starting us off with Fishing, Masonry, and then Agriculture. After that, maybe AH or BW depending on what the terrain looks like; possibly Archery if the barbs warrant it. Production-wise, I'm thinking Warrior-Work Boat-Worker. I'll be playing this later this evening unless there are objections.
The game settings
Our leader
Our Start
Roster:
Conroe
Methos
mike p
sooooo
adamlan
I'll start us off with 20 turns and then we will go to a 10 turn rotation after that. It'll be some boring turns the first go 'round, but it will give us a chance to discuss the tech path.
I'm thinking of starting us off with Fishing, Masonry, and then Agriculture. After that, maybe AH or BW depending on what the terrain looks like; possibly Archery if the barbs warrant it. Production-wise, I'm thinking Warrior-Work Boat-Worker. I'll be playing this later this evening unless there are objections.
Sorry, been busy with my turnset for SGOTM1.
Honestly I wasn't for sure which one I preferred best, but have no problem playing #3.
Build-wise I'd go for a worker first, followed by either a second worker or a work boat.
Honestly I wasn't for sure which one I preferred best, but have no problem playing #3.
Build-wise I'd go for a worker first, followed by either a second worker or a work boat.
I figured the Worker would go quicker if the seafood were hooked up. But, we need to discover Fishing before we can build a Work Boat. So, I am going to start us on a Warrior (since we have only a Scout) and preempt it for a Work Boat. By that time, we should be size 2 and should be able to build a Worker a little quicker. That's the theory, at least.Methos said:
Turn 0 (4000 BC)
Berlin founded
Berlin is founded on the spot. We will have a 2nd corn just outside our city radius available for trading. It's ashame it isn't inside our city radius.
I also see some desert tiles SE of Berlin; they could possibly hold some metal for us.Berlin begins: Warrior
Research begun: Fishing
Turn 1 (3960 BC)
We will also be able to trade some spices ...
Turn 3 (3880 BC)
Contact made: American Empire
Turn 4 (3840 BC)
Eventually, we will have dyes for trading. The Americans will also have dyes for sale.
IBT:
Berlin's borders expand
Remember that goody hut just outside of our border in the starting screenshot?
Tribal village results: technology
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
The horses are far to the north; we will need to hit the 5K culture mark to bring them into our borders.
Turn 6 (3760 BC) IBT:
Tech learned: Fishing
Turn 7 (3720 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Our Warrior only has 1 turn remaining, so I am going to delay the Work Boat.
IBT:
Berlin grows: 2
Berlin finishes: Warrior
Turn 8 (3680 BC)
Berlin begins: Work Boat
Turn 9 (3640 BC)
Roosevelt is close, very close. Will he be our protector or our bully? Probably too weak to be either ...
I do some MM of Berlin to time the completion of the Work Boat with the city growth. That way we will be size 3 when we start our Worker build.
IBT:
Hinduism founded in a distant land
Turn 12 (3520 BC) IBT:
While defending, Scout defeats (0.87/1): Barbarian Wolf at 99.5 percent.
Turn 16 (3360 BC) IBT:
Berlin grows: 3 (happiness cap is 4)
Berlin finishes: Work Boat
Buddhism founded in a distant land
Turn 17 (3320 BC)
Berlin begins: Worker
Contact made: Egyptian Empire
IBT:
Tech learned: Masonry
Turn 18 (3280 BC)
Research begun: Agriculture
Notes:
Uneventful start. Worker will be ready in 5 turns with Agriculture in 6. Since we have no stone, I say we get started on the Pyramids ASAP. We can preempt them for a Warrior or 2 if barbs warrant. But, with the Americans so close, I don't think barbs will be much of an issue.
Do we want to research Bronze Working next? Or should we start down the long path to Literature straight away?
Here is a look at our little corner of the pennisula:
And here is a look at the known world:
I must say, this is the oddest shaped pangaea map that I've seen. I see water to the north and south, as if we are on a rather large pennisula. But, we are located on the equator. It will be interesting to see the final shape of the map.
Roster Check:
Conroe - Just Played
Methos - UP
mike p - On Deck
sooooo
adamlan
Got it. I believe you said 10 tens apiece now?
I think we should go for BW first, due to all the forests around us. IMO those forests will hinder us more if we try and save them for lumbermills. I suggest we get BW and than chop them to speed the Pyramids up. Plus, we can than place cottages on the grass river tiles.
I think we should go for BW first, due to all the forests around us. IMO those forests will hinder us more if we try and save them for lumbermills. I suggest we get BW and than chop them to speed the Pyramids up. Plus, we can than place cottages on the grass river tiles.
Don't forget the forests provide health for specialists. But you're right we may need to chop them to get the wonders.
Let's be clear about the wonders we're aiming for. Agree pyramids and great library. I would also try for Oracle and Parthenon - thoughts? Wouldn't bother with lighthouse - it falls too early for only a small benefit.
Let's be clear about the wonders we're aiming for. Agree pyramids and great library. I would also try for Oracle and Parthenon - thoughts? Wouldn't bother with lighthouse - it falls too early for only a small benefit.
mike p
King
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 705
Cottages will probably be a low priority initially. What do we have for happy faces at this level? If it's five with the gems, then we'll be working 2 gems, the clams, and two mines. No time for cottages until we get our happiness cap up farther anyway. Either way, the tile 1W of Berlin should be farmed instead of cottaged so that we can irrigate the corn eventually.
Bronze working is probably a good idea. A couple of chops could be the difference between grabbing the Pyramids and missing them. If we have bronze in range, that could also help our production, obviously.
Rather than Pottery, I'd prioritize Archery. Agriculture is nice, but I think the clams and the gems are better to work than the corn, at least for now. I'd suggest we stop Agriculture, learn bronze working, then grab archery so we can whip an archer out if our defenses get thin.
Then possibly the wheel if there's bronze to hook up, then beeline to Alphabet and trade for all the other starting techs. If we work the gems hard enough, we might even get Alphabet before some Civs get Writing on this level!
-Edited to add:
I say yes to the Pyramids. Oracle would be nice, but we need to research 3 techs that are only marginally useful to get there and wait until the Pyramids are done to start it. I don't think we're likely to pull it off. Parthenon is OK, but expensive, if we had marble I'd say give it a shot. We might be better off building barracks and some archers though. We've got to keep our power rating up or else someone will start picking on us. (At least Hatty and FDR are reasonable neighbors.)
Rather than Parthenon, we could sidetrack to Mysticism and Stonehenge. Its culture would help us grab the horses a lot sooner, and it's cheap. Much less reward, but also much less risk.
Bronze working is probably a good idea. A couple of chops could be the difference between grabbing the Pyramids and missing them. If we have bronze in range, that could also help our production, obviously.
Rather than Pottery, I'd prioritize Archery. Agriculture is nice, but I think the clams and the gems are better to work than the corn, at least for now. I'd suggest we stop Agriculture, learn bronze working, then grab archery so we can whip an archer out if our defenses get thin.
Then possibly the wheel if there's bronze to hook up, then beeline to Alphabet and trade for all the other starting techs. If we work the gems hard enough, we might even get Alphabet before some Civs get Writing on this level!
-Edited to add:
I say yes to the Pyramids. Oracle would be nice, but we need to research 3 techs that are only marginally useful to get there and wait until the Pyramids are done to start it. I don't think we're likely to pull it off. Parthenon is OK, but expensive, if we had marble I'd say give it a shot. We might be better off building barracks and some archers though. We've got to keep our power rating up or else someone will start picking on us. (At least Hatty and FDR are reasonable neighbors.)
Rather than Parthenon, we could sidetrack to Mysticism and Stonehenge. Its culture would help us grab the horses a lot sooner, and it's cheap. Much less reward, but also much less risk.
I can't see us getting Pyramids and Oracle both. Since we don't have stone, the Pryamids are going to take a bit to build. I'd be inclined to not even try. Hopefully we will pop a GE while researching Literature and it will build the GL for us.sooooo said:
Good eye! It will be a shame to lose all of the forests, but that one will definitely have to go.mike p said:
The only reason we would need Archery is if the barbs get out of hand. With the proximity of FDR, I don't think barbs will be a factor for very long. He is going to be forced to expand west because he is rather close to Hatty.mike p said:
Plus, Pottery is on the way to Literature (unless we go the Oracle route). And, we will also need it for a Granary.
Turn 3, 3080 BC:
IT- Wow, interesting inter-turn, as we meet both Isabelle and Saladin.
View attachment 132935
View attachment 132937
Turn 4, 3040 BC:
IT- Worker>Pyramids (75 turns to complete)
Turn 5, 3000 BC: The worker moves to the corn. Looks like everythings coming in twos, as we meet both Alexander and Napoleon.
View attachment 132938
View attachment 132936
IT- Research Agriculture>Bronze Working (14 turns to complete)
Turn 6, 2960 BC: Worker begins irrigating the corn.
Turn 8, 2880 BC: Sorry, stupid mistake. Just realized that going for the corn first was foolish. I stop the worker to move him to the gems. Sorry guys.
Notes:
Berlin grows in two, and will be at her happiness limit until we can connect the gems.
Roster:
Conroe
Methos- Just Played
mike p- Up
sooooo- On Deck
adamlan
IT- Wow, interesting inter-turn, as we meet both Isabelle and Saladin.
View attachment 132935
View attachment 132937
Turn 4, 3040 BC:
IT- Worker>Pyramids (75 turns to complete)
Turn 5, 3000 BC: The worker moves to the corn. Looks like everythings coming in twos, as we meet both Alexander and Napoleon.
View attachment 132938
View attachment 132936
IT- Research Agriculture>Bronze Working (14 turns to complete)
Turn 6, 2960 BC: Worker begins irrigating the corn.
Turn 8, 2880 BC: Sorry, stupid mistake. Just realized that going for the corn first was foolish. I stop the worker to move him to the gems. Sorry guys.
Notes:
Berlin grows in two, and will be at her happiness limit until we can connect the gems.
Roster:
Conroe
Methos- Just Played
mike p- Up
sooooo- On Deck
adamlan
mike p
King
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2005
- Messages
- 705
Well, we haven't been wiped out yet.
2800 BC - Hit enter.
until 2680 BC, when Judaism is founded in a distant land. Since no one converts, it's probably Saladin or Isabella, who already have religions anyway.
2640 BC Our science output is nearly doubled as our first gems tile is hooked up.
2520 BC Bronze working complete, start the wheel, due in 4. Copper just where I wanted it. I love it when a plan comes together!
2400 BC Wheel was done in 3 since the second gems got on line. Started a copper mine, and set research to writing. Switched Berlin from the corn tile (3 food) to hills river (1f, 1h, 1c). We can't use the food until we get more happy faces, need the hammer, and one extra commerce couldn't hurt.
I haven't revolted to Slavery yet. We might want to do immediately. Once the worker finished the copper mine, the production cost of a turn of anarchy goes up. As soon as the pyramids are whippable, we should pull the trigger.
Techwise, I strongly suggest writing to alphabet and then make a few trades. Might not want to trade for the earlier techs though since our science rate is so high - little sense in using the tech trading limit on something like Mysticism that we can research in 3 turns.
Worker should mine the river grassland hill that Berlin is working, then a chop or two, then road the copper, IMO.
2800 BC - Hit enter.
until 2680 BC, when Judaism is founded in a distant land. Since no one converts, it's probably Saladin or Isabella, who already have religions anyway.
2640 BC Our science output is nearly doubled as our first gems tile is hooked up.
2520 BC Bronze working complete, start the wheel, due in 4. Copper just where I wanted it. I love it when a plan comes together!
2400 BC Wheel was done in 3 since the second gems got on line. Started a copper mine, and set research to writing. Switched Berlin from the corn tile (3 food) to hills river (1f, 1h, 1c). We can't use the food until we get more happy faces, need the hammer, and one extra commerce couldn't hurt.
I haven't revolted to Slavery yet. We might want to do immediately. Once the worker finished the copper mine, the production cost of a turn of anarchy goes up. As soon as the pyramids are whippable, we should pull the trigger.
Techwise, I strongly suggest writing to alphabet and then make a few trades. Might not want to trade for the earlier techs though since our science rate is so high - little sense in using the tech trading limit on something like Mysticism that we can research in 3 turns.
Worker should mine the river grassland hill that Berlin is working, then a chop or two, then road the copper, IMO.
Copper in the city radius!mike p said:
I would suggest not trading Alphabet away until the Great Library is built, if feasible. I've found that the AI do not prioritize Alphabet, but once known can sometimes beeline for Lit.
Roster Check:
Conroe
Methos
mike p - Just Played
sooooo - UP
adamlan - On Deck
Quick and easy turns:
IHT: Revolt to Slavery. So does Hatshepsut.
T3: Mine complete.
T4: Isabella to slavery. Start road on copper.
T5: Saladin to slavery.
T6: Copper hooked up, move to grassland hill.
T8: Writing -> Alphabet. Our scout dies to a barbarian archer.
T10: Grassland mine finishes. Pyramids due in 11, alphabet in 14.
IHT: Revolt to Slavery. So does Hatshepsut.
T3: Mine complete.
T4: Isabella to slavery. Start road on copper.
T5: Saladin to slavery.
T6: Copper hooked up, move to grassland hill.
T8: Writing -> Alphabet. Our scout dies to a barbarian archer.
T10: Grassland mine finishes. Pyramids due in 11, alphabet in 14.
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