Fundamentalism is ALWAYS a bad thing

kobayashi

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I've started another thread as the other one was degenerating into a long winded arguements about specific issues like homosexuality.

Fudamentalism is based on following a set of rules written in the past. As the world evolves, not set of rules, no matter how great they were when they were written cannot apply forever.

Many parts of holy texts are rooted in common sense - but the government and legislative bodies need to be completely seperate so that society can adjust to advancements made.

Example 1
It is taboo to eat certain types of food in many religions. For instance, for Jews and Muslims it is pork, because they are unclean. In olden days, that may have been the case, since pigs ate all kinds of rubbish and had worms and stuff. In today's world, pigs are mostly reared with animal feed and what is a pressing matter is whether pigs (and other animals) should be fed with genetically modified vegetation. Find me a holy book that talks about this.

Example 2
Incest is taboo because inbreeding tends to cause the manifestation of several homozygous recessive genetic disorders. It also impedes bio-diversity and evolution. Now if one day DNA testing becomes so good that we can predict all possible genetic disorders, maybe incest could be allowed (there would still be implications for social structure and interactions). Homosexuality has been taboo simply because it interferes with the process of perpetuating the human race.

Example 3
Prostitution promotes the spreading of sexual diseases and that is why it is bad in most religions. At the time when there were no rubber condoms (I think they used sheeps intestines or some other unsavoury items) that would seem logical. With proper sex education, it is easy to understand why it is becoming legal in many countries.

Example 4
The thing with Hindus and Cows is easy to understand too. There is little land for grazing and cows are needed for tilling the land. If India had huge grasslands perhaps things would be different. Then again, mad-cow disease mat be something we have to think about in the near future.

Many other 'rules' like not stealing still make sense today and that is why the legal infrastrucutre and religion still go hand in hand. However as time passes, the divergence between what is dictated by fundamentalist and what makes sense is bound to increase. Implicitly we can see this happening with opposites between the Old and New Testaments. An eye for and eye becomes turn the other cheek. Animal sacrifices were glorified but largely dropped later.

So to cut a long story short, the people who are living today are the only ones endowed with the proper knowledge to set the rules. As a governmental structure, religion was suitable at a certain phase of human civilisation but that time has passed.
 
I don't agree with your definition of foundmentalist. A man can be very religious but as long as he don't force others to act by the same rules I wouldn't consider it to be foundmentalism.
 
Originally posted by G-Man
I don't agree with your definition of foundmentalist. A man can be very religious but as long as he don't force others to act by the same rules I wouldn't consider it to be foundmentalism.

I did not say anything about forcing other people to act by the same rules. I am simply putting forth the point that there are cases where moral/religious issues interferre with the progress and perpetuation of the human race.

In some cases, religion has modified itself (but always too late) to adjust to reality. Thats fine by me. But there are other cases where religion is stagnant.

Example 5
It was not that long a go when a women would be stoned to death for wearing a bikini.

Example 6
Vatican still opposes the use of condoms when AIDS has infected a fifth of Africa.
 
Originally posted by kobayashi
I've started another thread as the other one was degenerating into a long winded arguements about specific issues like homosexuality.
Regrettable. I refer to this narrowing of scope as 'splitting hairs while the logs rot'. It's a method of ignoring the greater topic by pointing at and loudly shouting about a seeming flaw in one of my arguments. What can I do? If I don't answer, they act like they've won a point in the debate. If I do, I'm allowing them to weaken the topic as a whole, and that's a victory for them too. <shrug>
Originally posted by kobayashi
Fudamentalism is based on following a set of rules written in the past. As the world evolves, not set of rules, no matter how great they were when they were written cannot apply forever.

Many parts of holy texts are rooted in common sense - but the government and legislative bodies need to be completely seperate so that society can adjust to advancements made.
We'll address these 'advancements' below...
Originally posted by kobayashi
Example 1
It is taboo to eat certain types of food in many religions. For instance, for Jews and Muslims it is pork, because they are unclean. In olden days, that may have been the case, since pigs ate all kinds of rubbish and had worms and stuff. In today's world, pigs are mostly reared with animal feed and what is a pressing matter is whether pigs (and other animals) should be fed with genetically modified vegetation. Find me a holy book that talks about this.
This is no longer part of Jehovah's code of laws, and as such, is moot. As to the genetically modified feed question, either the grain will feed the animals, or it will sicken them. Either way, the question is answered.
Originally posted by kobayashi
Example 2
Incest is taboo because inbreeding tends to cause the manifestation of several homozygous recessive genetic disorders. It also impedes bio-diversity and evolution. Now if one day DNA testing becomes so good that we can predict all possible genetic disorders, maybe incest could be allowed (there would still be implications for social structure and interactions). Homosexuality has been taboo simply because it interferes with the process of perpetuating the human race.
The genetic defects are a small part of the reason for taboo against incest. The main reason is because a family is supposed to nurture its children so they can become productive adults. The fact that you can brush this off rather casually, as 'implications' is rather chilling. Homosexuality, as I have mentioned elsewhere, has a promotional effect upon mindset towards sex as a recreational activity. This is a catastrophic attitude, as sex has many serious consequences that young adults frequently disregard. The answer is not condoms, but abstinence. This fact may be unpopular, but it is true nonetheless.
Originally posted by kobayashi
Example 3
Prostitution promotes the spreading of sexual diseases and that is why it is bad in most religions. At the time when there were no rubber condoms (I think they used sheeps intestines or some other unsavoury items) that would seem logical. With proper sex education, it is easy to understand why it is becoming legal in many countries.
Again, sex as recreation is not ever a good thing. See above. And try to remember that only moral relativists believe that Legal = Good.
Originally posted by kobayashi
Example 4
The thing with Hindus and Cows is easy to understand too. There is little land for grazing and cows are needed for tilling the land. If India had huge grasslands perhaps things would be different. Then again, mad-cow disease mat be something we have to think about in the near future.
This may well be true. I'm not a Hindu, so I can't say.
Originally posted by kobayashi
Many other 'rules' like not stealing still make sense today and that is why the legal infrastrucutre and religion still go hand in hand. However as time passes, the divergence between what is dictated by fundamentalist and what makes sense is bound to increase. Implicitly we can see this happening with opposites between the Old and New Testaments. An eye for and eye becomes turn the other cheek. Animal sacrifices were glorified but largely dropped later.
You have to remember that God was dealing with some of the most ungrateful people that humanity had ever spawned, the Israelites. He set up 'eye for an eye' because they demanded a legalized vendetta system. Animal sacrifices were his way of hitting them where it would hurt, in their wealth, measured in the size of their herds. Those who sinned frequently would have fewer and fewer animals, and would hopefully learn something from their financial losses. He even provided them with divorce, because they couldn't respect the institution of marriage.

When Christ came, it was after the people of spiritual Israel had lost the way, and he was providing a new guide down the path. As part of his work, he restored God's original plan, and sacrifices and many other placations of the Israelites were swept aside. This was done by Jesus' living up to the requirements of, and thereby fulfilling, the Mosaic Law.
Originally posted by kobayashi
So to cut a long story short, the people who are living today are the only ones endowed with the proper knowledge to set the rules. As a governmental structure, religion was suitable at a certain phase of human civilisation but that time has passed.
As to mankind being capable of providing its own leadership, '...man is not fit to guide his own footsteps, let alone those of other men.' You may wish to take note of the fact that in the Bible, God's people, whether the Israelites or the Christians, were always on the bad side of world governments. Clearly, religion as an earthly government was not what God had in mind.

Actually, my thread on fundamentalism is somewhat at odds with Christian teachings. "My kingdom is no part of this earth." I'm just of the opinion that the world would be a much better place if the nations of the world accepted God's laws as their own. That is certainly not going to happen, but wouldn't it be nice?
 
Listen: Fundamentalism is an entirely bad thing...morality in law is not bad thing necessarily. Look at all the laws on the books right now. All of them are set in the general base of morality and "God's Laws." We've made stealing illegal, homicide, adultery, and whatever else is mentioned in those commandments. Now these laws are all in the book because they provide a protective measure to prevent harm between two individuals. These laws move to serve society.

Having laws such as those that follow the commandments is morality in law, but not fundamentalism. Fundamentalism goes one step further. It moves to control every aspect of a person's life: both spiritually and physically. It also is set down upon the one most egocentric, arrogant, foolishly stupid, selfish belief in the entire universe: "I'm right and you are wrong, period."

Fundamentalism is in itself one of the most vile things humanity has created. It is set down to destroy the basic freedom of every person under it's control. It tells you what to believe, what to wear, when to sleep, when to eat, what to pray to, and what you can put your dick into. "And to what purpose?" do I ask. Why is it necessary for a central entity to control every waking moment of one person's life -every person's life? When you eat, when you sleep, what you pray to, or where you stick your engorged penis is of absolutely no concern to anyone other than those involved unless harm is done to another.

*(I'm gong to pick homosexuality as a topic of discussion right now, since it's such a hot topic)* Why is it so damn important that everyone believe the same thing, practice the same thing? Is it really that important to that right now two men are in a dark motel room, paying by the hour to enjoy eachother's company? What harm is it doing to anyone? Why does anyone care? Drop all your adolescent views of sexuality and realize that it's not that big a deal. What does it matter that those two enjoy what they do? None of us were hurt by it, and neither of them.

To simply say, "It's wrong because God says so and therefore they shouldn't do it," is remarkably childish. There beliefs are not your beliefs, just leave it at that. When we're all dead, we'll finally have all the answers and we'll finally know exactly who was right and who was wrong, or whether we were all wrong except for Kilgore Trout of Midland City, Indiana who's the only one who gets let into heaven. Untill then, you have only what you believe, and none of us believe the same thing.

Stop trying to control everything and JUST LET GO. There are no blacks, there are no whites...only a grey muttled mess. Cross over onto the grey area already; there's plenty of room.
 
Originally posted by BlueMonday


Is it really that important to that right now two men are in a dark motel room, paying by the hour to enjoy eachother's company? What harm is it doing to anyone? Why does anyone care? Drop all your adolescent views of sexuality and realize that it's not that big a deal. What does it matter that those two enjoy what they do? None of us were hurt by it, and neither of them.


People oppose it because the human race will cease to exist in a few generations if this becomes popular. As it is, many developed countries already have populations which are shrinking - and this also leads to other problems like health care for the aged.

Why can't people just shoot whoever they like?
Cause we'd all be dead.

Why doesn't even the most fanatic religions ban sex completely?
Cause they'd become extinct.

Note I am not making a moral or religious arguement, this is simply the truth.
 
People oppose it because the human race will cease to exist in a few generations if this becomes popular. As it is, many developed countries already have populations which are shrinking - and this also leads to other problems like health care for the aged.

Note I am not making a moral or religious arguement, this is simply the truth.

Homosexuality has existed for centuries and it's only now that with the advent of mass media and SOME increasing tolerance and understanding that it is becoming more apparent and accepted. But homosexuality becoming "popular" like Britney Spears, Coca Cola or designer drugs? You act as though it is a fad that will catch on for its sex appeal and taboo nature or whatever else gay 'marketers' can dish out. In other words, it's not contagious and results more from biology than society.

The populations of developed nations are decreasing due to major changes in social and political structure that have resulted from (post)industrialization. Although acceptance of homosexuality may be one of these changes, the feminization of the workplace, widespread birth control and sex education, and other significant social factors have played a far greater role in the drop in birth rates than homosexuality taking up valuable reproduction "space".

-Maj
 
Originally posted by FearlessLeader2

...And try to remember that only moral relativists believe that Legal = Good...

Prove it. I consider myself a moral relativist and I think a lot of laws are idiotic.
 
Research shows that homosexuality is genetic, about 1 in 10 people has this different gene.
And this is not only in humans, my old neighbour had a stud that would only jump other studs....

A country like Thailand where homosexuality is widely accepted is still one of the fastest groing country's in the world, its only the 1 in 10 and most of them have children one way or the other.

Saying it is wrong to follow one's feelings becouse they are different from the so called normal, well you might just shave your head and hang a poster of Adolf Hitler above your head.

But hey, as long as there is organised religion there will always be ignorance. :(
 
Originally posted by atawa


A country like Thailand where homosexuality is widely accepted is still one of the fastest groing country's in the world, its only the 1 in 10 and most of them have children one way or the other.:( [/B]



Is it my imagination or is Thailand a DEVELOPING country. kobayashi was talking about Developed countries which usually have high age expectancy and populations which grow into economic decline as the number of elderly increase, pensions are raised and the number of young people begin to decline.

But hey, as long as there is organised religion there will always be ignorance. :( [/B]


You seem to be forgeting about the good organised religion does, setting rules and examples for the best of the communities or State.
For example, The Ten Commandments or Confusism.

Dis-organised religion can be just as bad by spreading CULTS, which may work to help or harm humanity.

Besides remember the old saying, 'ignorance is bliss'
 
Originally posted by BlueMonday
Listen: When you eat, when you sleep, what you pray to, or where you stick your engorged penis is of absolutely no concern to anyone other than those involved unless harm is done to another.

Is it really that important to that right now two men are in a dark motel room, paying by the hour to enjoy eachother's company? What harm is it doing to anyone? Why does anyone care? Drop all your adolescent views of sexuality and realize that it's not that big a deal. What does it matter that those two enjoy what they do? None of us were hurt by it, and neither of them.
We, dare I say it, fundamentally disagree on this point. I am convinced that homosexuality, and all other forms of recreational sex, are inherently damaging to societal structure. You are equally convinced that they are not. Unless and until you bend(I am not going to) we really should table this.
Originally posted by BlueMonday To simply say, "It's wrong because God says so and therefore they shouldn't do it," is remarkably childish. [/B]
Quote me saying this. I gave reasons why it is bad, not 'cause God said so'.
Originally posted by BlueMonday There are no blacks, there are no whites...only a grey muttled mess. [/B]
You are flat wrong in this as well. There are things that are right, and there are things that are wrong, and there is inactivity, which is generally neither, unless it either prevents or promotes one of the first two. There is no middle ground besides that.
Originally posted by BlueMonday Cross over onto the grey area already; there's plenty of room. [/B]
NEVER!! The air is thin, and it's lonely as all hell up here, but it's the moral high ground for me. (Looking around, I realize that the air is only thin because I have my nose protruding from the swamp, and a tenuous grip on a branch.)
 
If you're not willing to admit that there are moral grey areas then your journey is finished. All people on the face of the Earth agree on a few basic principles: no stealing, no killing other humans, etc. But everything else is a grey area. How dare you -or anyone else- tell anyone that what they do is wrong so long as no one was physically harmed. It doesn't concern you; it never has so leave it alone. If it were up to people like you, all fun would be banished. You'd probably get rid of all forms of entertainment: Sports, TV, Theatre, Radio, Parties... pretty soon we'd have a priest watching over us everytime we have sex with our wives to make sure we do it in the only position ordained by the church and for merely procreational reasons.

Why is stuff like that of concern to you? Stop splitting hairs while the log rots and answer the question I asked: Why is it necessary for a central entity to control every waking moment of one person's life -every person's life- in an over-zealous attempt to stifle every freedom bestowed on humanity (that is what we're supposed to be debating -fundamentalism)? After all -according to the Bible- it was God himself who gave us the freedom to choose our ways. He put the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden himself so that we had the choice between purity and freedom. Anything less would have been slavery.
 
Originally posted by BlueMonday
If you're not willing to admit that there are moral grey areas then your journey is finished.
Where was I going?
Originally posted by BlueMonday
All people on the face of the Earth agree on a few basic principles: no stealing, no killing other humans, etc. But everything else is a grey area.
Hey, I'm just relaying an old message, and maybe amplifying the one that your conscience has been trying to get heard over your desires' objections.
Originally posted by BlueMonday
How dare you -or anyone else- tell anyone that what they do is wrong so long as no one was physically harmed.
So emotional, financial, and mental harm are okay? As long as I don't shoot people, it's okay to threaten, bully, terrorize, insult, leer, etc? Every action with a negative consequence, whether it is physical or not, is WRONG.
Originally posted by BlueMonday
It doesn't concern you; it never has so leave it alone.
If it didn't concern me so greatly, would I be making myself a target for everyone who wants to use me as a symbol of all those annoying obstacles in the way of their own selfish desires? You think I enjoy having people tell me that I am a fascist control freak? You think I like being hated for my views?
Originally posted by BlueMonday
If it were up to people like you, all fun would be banished. You'd probably get rid of all forms of entertainment: Sports, TV, Theatre, Radio, Parties... pretty soon we'd have a priest watching over us everytime we have sex with our wives to make sure we do it in the only position ordained by the church and for merely procreational reasons.
The day I say anything of the kind, you feel free to come shoot me.
Originally posted by BlueMonday
Why is stuff like that of concern to you?
Because it harms me by harming the society that I am stuck living in. It is spreading like a plague throughout the entire inhabitaed earth, and there is no escape, so I am trying to fight back, like any cornered animal would.
Originally posted by BlueMonday
Stop splitting hairs while the log rots
I'm flattered, but that only works when you're the one in context.
Originally posted by BlueMonday
and answer the question I asked: Why is it necessary for a central entity to control every waking moment of one person's life -every person's life- in an over-zealous attempt to stifle every freedom bestowed on humanity (that is what we're supposed to be debating -fundamentalism)?
Is that what acting responsibly is to you? Stifling? All I'm asking for is that people act responsibly. I realise that this is a horrific imposition, but that is the way I feel.
Originally posted by BlueMonday
After all -according to the Bible- it was God himself who gave us the freedom to choose our ways. He put the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden himself so that we had the choice between purity and freedom. Anything less would have been slavery.
If we weren't free to choose our own ways, we'd never have learned how difficult it is to do it right. So far no one born with sin has done it right. That is why we have a guide.

Ok, fire away...
 
I am wholeheartedly resentful that you choose to label my way of life as irresponsible. First of all, I marvel that you can detect over the internet exactly who I am. Don't even pretend to know anything about me...you don't know sh!t about who I am or the way I lead my life. Second, I will not be judged by you.

How long will you choose to continue this merry-go-round of purile debate over individual mores and folkways (sex, alcohol, gambling, other of your moral hatreds)? I'm not choosing to discuss these issues here (or anywhere else) because I know that they are most certainly the grey areas of our pitiful little lives of which the two of us will in no way come into agreement. Instead, this thread is to discuss fundamentalism which is by far the worst thing religion has to offer.

The idea behind fundamentalism is simple: I'm right and you're wrong, period. It sets one standard and one standard only. Anything else is a death sentence. If you truly believe that this is the way to run the world you are more arrogant and selfish than I anyone I have ever known. If you truly believe that you might as well change your name right now to ArroganceLeader2.
 
Quick question for Fearless Leader

1. Everything that is commanded by your religious texts is correct and applicable?

2. Are all your concepts of what is right and wrong determied by your religion?

3. Do religions evolve and is it right for them to change over time.

4. So do you think your religion is the only one that is right and others who do not follow it are damned for eternity?

5. Is it your duty to minimise those being damned by converting others to your religion?

6. Would you be happy if all religions other than your own were wiped out?
 
Originally posted by FearlessLeader2

We, dare I say it, fundamentally disagree on this point. I am convinced that homosexuality, and all other forms of recreational sex, are inherently damaging to societal structure. You are equally convinced that they are not. Unless and until you bend(I am not going to) we really should table this.

Quote me saying this. I gave reasons why it is bad, not 'cause God said so'.

Then please give reasons why "recreational sex is damaging the society"

I once read in my favorite paper that some organisation in the USA wanted to prevent women from breast feeding their babies, because they took "sexual pleasure" during the act and that the innocent baby was being perverted that way.

I like scratching my balls, am I damaging the society? I say that because it feels very good...
 
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