I saw it in a documentary, it must be true!
Funny/Wierd History Facts
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Yeekim said:
More or less what Lord Baal said, with another caveat, his theory was never the dominant scholarly opinion and never challenged that opinion, which held that Polynesians had originally come from Asia. It was obviously wrong or at least immensely suspect for that reason alone even ignoring the mass of evidence to the contrary including for instance radio-carbon dating, archeological finds which sustained a west to east route and a the oral traditions of the people themselves (Easter Island was the exception to the rule and why it was understood to be the rule is beyond me).
Vortilex
Imperator Mundi
Ah, but they have legends of a king coming from the East called Kon-Tiki. The Inca have a legend of a king leaving to the ocean named Conticci. There is a plant on Easter Island that only grows in one other place in the world: Lake Titicaca in Peru/Bolivia. The similarities between the "arrival" vessels and the "departure" vessels in both cultures is strikingly similar.
Yeah, I mean, Heyerdahl didn't just pull his theory out from his bad arse (pardon me).
And while I understood his theories were far from mainstream among contemporary historians, the main objection was that such voyage would not have been technically possible - which he elegantly debunked.
It was a long while ago I last read Ra, Kon-Tiki & Aku-Aku though...
privatehudson
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The Strasser's might have been biased in the matter but there may well have been some foundation to the rumours even if the more lurid details were probably fanciful. They did live together after all and Hitler was highly possessive of her. If there was nothing to it it seems strange that Shirer repeats the claim in his work on the Third Reich.
Somewhat dubious, as the people of Easter Island have never had a king. Also, Peru's Quetzalcoatl-type god-king was not named Conticci, but something starting with a 'V' - at least, in whatever language the Incas used. It's also possible to date when he left, due to pictures left by the pre-Inca cultures, and it was after the Rapanui reached Easter Island.
Those same Easter Islanders almost certainly did make it to Peru - as Masada said, they appear to have inadvertenlty introduced the chicken - no-one is disputing that. It's Heyerdahl's thesis that they originally came from Peru that is clearly and obviously false.
The theory that a journey would have been technically impossible was never the main objection, it was simply inflated by Heyerdahl to make it seem the main objection, so when he disproved it it made him look like he was right. Classic strawman argument. There were numerous other, far better objections, which Heyerdahl never addressed.
ParkCungHee
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Well obviously. But two counter points:
1) The fact that Hitler lived with her and was possessive of her doesn't seem to be much in the way of evidence. I mean, it is not in and of itself that unusual.
and
2) The Strasser brothers, like many of the Nazis were first class mud slingers. If they accused him of having sex with a cousin he saw very occasionally, the story wouldn't stick, if you're going to accuse someone of having sex with someone, you obviously pick people who are close.
Not really. Shirer found Strasser reliable for some reason. I don't know why. Shirer seems to enjoy spicing up his books a bit, and while he does it without ignoring the truth, he stretches it to fit when he needs to.
If there was something to it, it seems strange that no one repeats the claim of Strasser. I mean, if the worlds most famous man had sex with his niece you'd think SOMEONE would have access to the knowledge other then the Strassers. Especially since they themselves were not in a position to know, and they'd have to hear about it from someone in the first place.
Dodge_272
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sydhe
King of Kongs
Apologies. I was thinking of the Sulawesi traders crossing the Timor Sea and got the two islands confused.
Use of the word "tits" as if you had some. Clearly means something a little different in your part of the world.
Mirc
Not mIRC!!!
I know this is probably not so interesting for people that are not directly involved with music, but still...
Johann Sebastian Bach, Domenico Scarlatti and Georg Friedrich Händel were all born in the same year (1685). They are considered (by some) the three most important baroque composers ever to have lived!
I personally find it a really cool coincidence.
Bach lived the shortest life (dying in 1750), followed by Scarlatti (1757), while Händel was the most longevive (1759 - you have to consider that in that time, living up to the age of 74 was not particularly common, although not unheard of).
Johann Sebastian Bach, Domenico Scarlatti and Georg Friedrich Händel were all born in the same year (1685). They are considered (by some) the three most important baroque composers ever to have lived!
I personally find it a really cool coincidence. Bach lived the shortest life (dying in 1750), followed by Scarlatti (1757), while Händel was the most longevive (1759 - you have to consider that in that time, living up to the age of 74 was not particularly common, although not unheard of).
LightSpectra
me autem minui
Bach, who wrote the sexiest music in history, had 20 kids.
Coincidence? I think not.
Coincidence? I think not.
sydhe
King of Kongs
As the joke goes, his organ had no stops.
Talking about something "getting on your tits" is a common expression in Britain (well, in parts of Britain anyway), and is non-gender-specific.
You have clearly never listened to Blind Willie McTell.
privatehudson
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Well that depends on what is being proven really. There's a big difference between thinking that Hitler's relationship with his neice was inappropriate and believing the lurid tales put about by Strasser about the sexual deviancy of his political rival. The original claim after all wasn't that he slept with her but merely that the relationship was inappropriate. Even though many around them didn't know how intimate they were and Geli's friend denied such a claim that doesn't mean that the details we can be reasonably sure of aren't frankly quite disturbing.
That argument would hold up better if the early Nazi ranks didn't contain the types of unsavoury characters that make someone who slept with his neice look like a saint. It probably would have caused a bigger ripple for it to be discovered that Hitler shot Raubl than slept with her.
I don't find Shirer's work that lurid, then again I've not read more than a third of the book yet so who knows. To his credit I don't recall him stating the more lurid rumours about Raubl and Hitler as fact though. I've not read Kershaw yet to know what he has to say on the matter and I suspect Ron Hansen's book would be the best to shed some light on it.
Its worth noting by the way that one man who did possibly know something about the issue - Father Bernhard Stempfle - was bumped off in the Night of the Long Knives. Also the argument that no-one coming forward other than Strasser isn't as strong as it seems. After all those close enough to Hitler at the time to be aware of the nature of the relationship were usually close, high ranking party comrades or friends. With the exception of Strasser they're hardly a type prone to repeating malicious gossip about him are they?
LightSpectra
me autem minui
The "Diplomatic Revolution" prior to the Seven Years' War, in which the Anglo-Austrian alliance against the Franco-Prussian alliance collapsed in favor of an Anglo-Prussian versus Bourbon-Habsburg war, happened largely for two reasons: one, Frederick II was unsatisfied with France's military ventures during the War of Austrian Succession; and two, Frederick had a fallout with Voltaire, and when the latter returned to France, he told Madame de Pompadour that Frederick was a misogynist homosexual.
Amusing how things work out.
Amusing how things work out.
ParkCungHee
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But we've found collaborative evidence of those. In fact, I consider that the strength of the argument against it: If we know Goebbels was sleeping with Czech actresses, Rohm was talking about murdering Goerings wife, and Streicher was doing every every godawful thing imaginable, and find solid backing for these things, it seems odd that this story has so little.
I didn't say Shirer was Lurid, that's not quite what I meant. The problem is Shirer can't resist the temptation to be a good writer, and put something in a way to intrigue the reader, where a stuffier man (such as myself) wouldn't give it as much credit. To give an example, he makes it sound like only by a very slim margin did France not fall to Fascism in 1934, which is certainly not true, but if you're going to give the play by play of a street battle, it helps if the reader doesn't know that the actual street battle was of no consequence.
It's been a good while since I read Kershaw, but I suspect that he'd be skeptical of it too. His Book was essentially one very, very long rebuttal of all the half-substantiated claims flouting about.
Oh quite a few of them were. We forget that with a man like Hitler, it wasn't just important people who he associated with. Even before he was in power, he was followed almost everywhere by his driver, his photographer, his bodyguards, various hangers-on etc. etc. and most of them have been very useful in filling in gaps of our historical understanding. That's not even getting into the girl's circle of relations. And if they weren't prone to gossiping about it, I really have to wonder how it got to Strasser of all people. I mean, if you had to draw up a list of "People who you should not say embarrassing things about Der Fuhrer to" Strasser would be somewhere in the top ten probably.
In fact, another instance I can find striking is that Speer never mentioned it. I don't even think he knew the rumor existed. He was probably the most emotionally close man to Hitler during this period, and though his books aren't as much a "tell all" as he claimed, he certainly wasn't above pointing out the faults in others to absolve himself.
Wellllllllll not quite.
But it is amusing that you put things that way.
privatehudson
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I see the point you are making but since I never argued that Hitler was sleeping with his neice so its a moot argument for me, unless that is you are saying that the relationship wasn't inappropriate at all.
As an aside though as far as I know Speer didn't meet Hitler until the Nuremburg rallies, well over a year after Raubl died so would have had no first hand knowledge of the events. The only way he would have known was if Hitler or one of those close to Hitler had spoken about the relationship afterwards.
As an aside though as far as I know Speer didn't meet Hitler until the Nuremburg rallies, well over a year after Raubl died so would have had no first hand knowledge of the events. The only way he would have known was if Hitler or one of those close to Hitler had spoken about the relationship afterwards.
ParkCungHee
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I think "inappropriate" is something for each person to decide. I think the "Hitler slept with his niece" thing is a load of bunk.
...shoot, now I'm gonna have to reread the Speer biography.
