Sure there is. You have no way to verify what information Red Shell is collecting, where and how they're storing that information, or who they're sharing it with. You have no way to verify that the opt-out email actually does anything at all. You're trusting them at their word. That's blind trust.
FYI: Civ6 contains Red Shell Analytics Software
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Sure there is. You have no way to verify what information Red Shell is collecting, where and how they're storing that information, or who they're sharing it with. You have no way to verify that the opt-out email actually does anything at all. You're trusting them at their word. That's blind trust.
well by this definition you're also showing blind trust in your browser, your ISP, this site, your OS and every piece of software that you've not compiled yourself on your PC.
The problem is you're, to borrow a word, "blindly" spreading misinformation that something is spyware. The claim was originally made, and there is no supporting evidence for it. It's bad form to repeatedly ask others for proof that it isn't spyware, when nobody has even begun to show proof that it is.
This is scaremongering, at this point.
No, I'm not. My browser is open source software. So is my primary OS (Gentoo Linux, which compiles everything from source when it's installed), though I do occasionally use Windows to play games that won't run on Linux. I don't have much choice about my ISP, but I do use encrypted communication (e.g. HTTPS) whenever possible and I do use a third-party DNS service. That's the best I can do, really.
Nah, that wasn't me. I'm calling it spyware because it is, but I never asked for proof that it isn't. There's no point in that.
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No, it doesn't work that way, as long as no one has any proof of that, you can only assume that it does what it says it does, and on that basis it's not a spyware.
It's fine to help people to neutralize that tool, you have every right to do that, but it's not fine to spread unfounded accusations like you do.
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At which point we go back to the start of the thread where I argue against people calling it spyware. It's on you to prove that it's spyware, instead of saying "because it is". That's not an argument.
But hey, we're going round in circles. This isn't contributing to anything meaningful, so I think I'll tap out here.
TheMeInTeam
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Definition of spyware is pretty loose/inconsistent. Here's an example from looking it up:
"software that is installed in a computer without the user's knowledge and transmits information about the user's computer activities" --> just one example you find from quick Google search.
Also, while earlier you said that Red Shell doesn't track browser history, it appears that this is allowed in EULA from Take-Two:
"Analytic Metrics Tools and Other Technologies: Other information that may be passively collected by the Company includes log files that record information about your hardware, product use, service use, or website use, including website navigation and game telemetry activity. We also use these log file entries for our internal marketing, service design, technical support, and demographic studies, so we can constantly improve the Online Services we provide you."
"The information such Advertising Service Providers may collect, or we may share with them, includes your device type, IP address, MAC address or other device ID, browser type, language, operating system and generalized geographic location; the types of pages, content and ads you, or others who are using your device, visited or viewed and the frequency of your visit/viewing; and information regarding your use of or activities in connection with a website or Online Service (e.g., time spent using a mobile application or your purchases). This information may be collected or shared when you use an Online Service, click on a webpage or an advertisement, or launch one of our game or other mobile applications that you have installed"
In other words, the EULA requires users to consent to significantly worse things than is already alleged against Red Shell here. Red shell is not explicitly mentioned, though its activities are well within this pretty ridiculous scope.
However, given this is a relatively recent topic compared to the age of the game, the standard of "without the user's knowledge" is met. Maybe users should have known, but many clearly did not know. Playing this game amounts to agreeing to have what would otherwise overtly be spyware on your machine up front. It's not unreasonable to still call that spyware, given that it's not obvious to many players that these things are tracked/can be tracked.
seems that the EULA covers that.
yeah, maybe I'm the only one to have read it before installing the game (because, as a modder, I had a real interest in reading it), but it exists, you can't ignore it.
Now, I really think that people have every rights to be upset about this EULA, the presence of Red Shell in civ6 with no opt in and no easy opt out, and the (sadly usual) lack of reaction from Firaxis/2K Games, but there is no need to try to worsen the picture: this is not a spyware.
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TheMeInTeam
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I don't see consistent standards in the online classification of what constitutes "spyware" by definition that allows a conclusive statement that "this is not spyware because if you read the fine print you know they can put on the machine per the EULA". At best, one can claim it's not because they state they are installing it, effectively holding players hostage against playing a game they're paying to play unless they accept it. Still, not everyone goes through multiple links to carefully read the EULA, devs are well aware of that fact, and as a result this finds its way on people's machines w/o them knowing. Is the user responsible for their actions? Absolutely. Is this also a grimey move by devs that can and should be held in disdain? Yes, and I don't care how much of an industry standard it is.
You can opt out of Red Shell, but not out of all of this. I have about as much respect for the practice as I have for the open dumpster fire that is the UI in the game.
At least with dual Windows/Linux install I can keep most important stuff on the latter.
Sometime my cat is making some small barks. I suppose that I can call it a dog and don't care what definition you use.
I mean, using your definition here, any web browser, for example, is spyware, because that's a software used by red shell (and many others) to get their data.
I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Of course, a web browser knows what sites I'm visiting. That's why I'm using a web browser. Fortunately, it's an open source web browser with a large community that ensures it isn't also doing something else.
I'm not using Civ VI so that it can see what sites I'm visiting and report that information to a relatively unknown third party with no transparency or verification.
If you can't see the difference, then we have nothing further to discuss.
I'm not using Civ VI so that it can see what sites I'm visiting and report that information to a relatively unknown third party with no transparency or verification.
If you can't see the difference, then we have nothing further to discuss.
sanchopanda
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I am not a lawyer and I am not going to file an official complaint about this practice. Nevertheless I think that this is in no way GDPR compliant.
Art. 7 Sec. 3 S. 3
They did not tell me anywhere in the EULA that I have the right to opt out of this data collection.
Art. 7 Sec. 3 S. 4
The opt out is not as easy as the opt in. You have to look up the name of the company (Red Shell) which was very difficult before that media report. Then you have to get your SteamID64, maybe even Google how to get it. If you have that information, you have to get the email of Red Shell and write them to get opted out. To opt in you don't have to do anything.
Art. 13 Sec. 1 and 2
A lot of the information required is missing.
Art. 12 Sec. 1
The information is vague/abstract and more or less hidden in the EULA and it is not easy to read.
Art. 12 Sec. 2
It is not as easy as it should be to exercise my rights.
Art. 21 Sec. 4
The right to object was not explicitly brought to my attention.
https://gdpr-info.eu/
And in the EULA they mention this: "including countries that may have lower standards of privacy protection". I don't know the article number or section of this, but storing personal data in countries with lower standards is not acceptable, that is mentioned somewhere in the GDPR.
I already opted out of this, still I wish the developers would comment on this issue.
Yes, it's possible that I've missed something, but let's take the case of using Redshell to assess a marketing campaign that was detailed in the previous page.
It goes in 2 steps:
1st step: you click on a ad or link set by the marketing team of the game, that link goes through the redshell site that use the data your web browser is using to connect to the site to generate an unique ID of the device you are using at this moment and log it. At this point neither redshell software or Civ6 are installed on your computer.
2nd step: you've installed the game, launch it and the DLL is generating an unique device ID using the same data your browser has previously provided and sent it to the redshell site, looking for a match.
We have two software, both used (by Red Shell) for the same purpose and sending the same information, so yes, I dont understand why comparing them is absurd.
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One last tidbit from me, then. You do a good job of going through the provisions that - divorced from context - could allow you to claim that they're making this difficult for you. However, you fail to argue the core tenet of GDPR:
Of which the only thing that comes close is your Steam ID, which I'd rather leave to the actual lawyers to determine (presumably, as Steam holds this information, it must be compliant with GDPR in some form. Presumably because it's an anonymised identifier that only makes sense within the context of Steam, and cannot identify you as a person. But that's just a theory of mine).
https://gdpr-info.eu/art-4-gdpr/
I have no issue with people defining data privacy as strictly as they want to for their own personal preferences, and opting out of whatever they want. I dislike people waving things like GDPR around like a stick without actually giving everyone the full definition to work from.
tl;dr: GDPR only applies to things that are relevant to you as an identifiable person.
TheMeInTeam
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^ information they state they can collect makes people identifiable by combining it.
Funny how most people are clueless of everything that's packaged into a piece of software. Also funny to read how many people complain about analytics-ware, yet haven't read the EULA, and yet keep complaining about the game not being good, etc.
Hey, dumbass: analytics' goal is not to spy on you. It's made to improve the game (the one you keep playing yet complaining about) by collecting data about it. And also to help selling it to other customers.
Moderator Action: Please refrain from trolling other users. Not only is it rude, it is potentially disruptive and wholly unproductive. -- Browd
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Hey, dumbass: analytics' goal is not to spy on you. It's made to improve the game (the one you keep playing yet complaining about) by collecting data about it. And also to help selling it to other customers.
Moderator Action: Please refrain from trolling other users. Not only is it rude, it is potentially disruptive and wholly unproductive. -- Browd
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
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Nope. It can't.
TheMeInTeam
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You don't need analytics software to realize you have literally thousands of unnecessary inputs and hidden rules in your game. A single competent UI programmer or any focus on end user experience whatsoever will notice that.
Not sure how agreeing to "website navigation" leads to a better in-game experience either, might be useful to clarify this.
From what I understand, if you gave someone with enough expertise the information I quoted from the EULA above (which isn't comprehensive) there's a reasonable chance that someone could knock on said "unidentifiable" person's front door.
It's unlikely to happen for numerous reasons.
Not sure how agreeing to "website navigation" leads to a better in-game experience either, might be useful to clarify this.
From what I understand, if you gave someone with enough expertise the information I quoted from the EULA above (which isn't comprehensive) there's a reasonable chance that someone could knock on said "unidentifiable" person's front door.
It's unlikely to happen for numerous reasons.
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