G-Major 14
- Thread starter superslug
- Start date
killercane
Deity
I have a question or two on AI war declarations. It seems that in Warlords it is rare not to be declared on. In my just abandoned game, I gifted Peter gems and OB in 1860 BC, and get an attack 10 turns later (no adopted religion or negative modifiers, no shared borders, he comes quite a ways to attack). I replayed, granted open borders, and adopted his religion the second time. Still an attack 10 turns later despite the positive modifier. Also, I have been attacked randomly before without doing anything silly to encourage negative diplomacy.
Is this a patch issue making them more likely to declare or a holy jihad to claim the founding cities of a particular civs religion/multiple religions? My second question, is it a bug that the AI can cancel Open Borders without waiting the mandatory time after signing the deal?
Is this a patch issue making them more likely to declare or a holy jihad to claim the founding cities of a particular civs religion/multiple religions? My second question, is it a bug that the AI can cancel Open Borders without waiting the mandatory time after signing the deal?
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
In my opinion, Peter is far more war-like than peaceful. You may have to have a diplomatic score of 8 to be sure of avoiding a war with him. There are more war-like Civs like Alexander and Montezuma and a few others. I would not want Peter in a game where I want to be at peace with all Civs, such as in a pure, peaceful builder type game.
What was your diplomatic score with Peter the turn before he attacked? However, his attack decision was probably made many turns before that. So looking at the history of your diplomatic score with Peter may also be helpful. Your military power graph is also a huge factor when an AI decides to attack.
Regarding your post-mortem reloading: If you reload after the AI has decided to attack you, he is committed and will probably not change his mind no matter how many positive diplomatic moves you make. If you reload before the AI has decided to attack, your positive diplomatic moves may have the potential to avoid an attack entirely.
How much better was your diplomatic score with Peter after reloading and improving your diplomacy with him?
The AI can cancel a 10 turn Peace Treaty with you prematurely when it becomes a Vassal of a third Civ (that is already at war with you). There may be other 10 turn agreements it must cancel when it becomes a Vassal.
Can you provide more details about the Open Borders agreement an AI canceled with you before its 10 turn term was up?
I don't know whether there is a bug that causes premature/against the rules canceling of 10 turn agreements before the 10 turn period is up.
However, I have seen many minor things that appear to be in violation of the game rules in both Warlords 2.08 and now 2.13.
Sun Tsu Wu
killercane
Deity
No negatives, +1-3 both times.
Pretty darn ruinous for a 6 gems/gold and early CS slingshot map!
It seems it does not matter if you sign OB the turn before, or several turns before, the AI can unilaterally end the deal and declare war anytime. It seems like I could get away from war by signing OB in previous versions, but really its hard to remember.
Pretty darn ruinous for a 6 gems/gold and early CS slingshot map!
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
This issue occurred using Warlords 2.13 with HOF 2.13.001. I suspect that this bug is in the Warlords 2.13 update, since I don't recall ever seeing this bug before updating to 2.13. I have no idea whether the HOF module has anything to do with this bug.
When I wrote the above, I had never looked into the Event Log to see which year the items in question were built. However, when playing the game, the messages saying that an AI Civ had built The Apollo Program and a space ship part did scroll over the map one right after the other in the same turn.
I have an AD 1395 AutoSave file which shows three different AIs completing both The Apollo Program and at least one SS Casing part in the same turn.
In fact, the final AI to get into the space race:
Frederick completes The Apollo Program and two SS Casing parts in AD 1385.
Looking further backwards into the Event Log, one can see:
Washington completes The Apollo Program and one SS Casing part in AD 1310.
Elizabeth completes The Apollo Program and one SS Casing part in AD 1175.
------
This is definitely a bug, since the game rules do not permit either:
1) Starting to build a space ship part before the Civ completes The Apollo Program.
2) Building anything rushed or not rushed in zero turns (starting and completing something in the same turn).
According to the game rules, the earliest a space ship part can be started is the same turn The Apollo Program is completed. However, the space ship part must take at least one turn to complete, thus it can be completed no earlier than one turn after The Apollo Program is completed.
------
Where can I upload the save file I mentioned above?
Never mind, I just uploaded the file. It is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/113297/AutoSave_AD-1395.CivWarlordsSave
I started a new thread in the Bug Report forum to report this bug:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...15#post5870115
Sun Tsu Wu
When I wrote the above, I had never looked into the Event Log to see which year the items in question were built. However, when playing the game, the messages saying that an AI Civ had built The Apollo Program and a space ship part did scroll over the map one right after the other in the same turn.
I have an AD 1395 AutoSave file which shows three different AIs completing both The Apollo Program and at least one SS Casing part in the same turn.
In fact, the final AI to get into the space race:
Frederick completes The Apollo Program and two SS Casing parts in AD 1385.
Looking further backwards into the Event Log, one can see:
Washington completes The Apollo Program and one SS Casing part in AD 1310.
Elizabeth completes The Apollo Program and one SS Casing part in AD 1175.
------
This is definitely a bug, since the game rules do not permit either:
1) Starting to build a space ship part before the Civ completes The Apollo Program.
2) Building anything rushed or not rushed in zero turns (starting and completing something in the same turn).
According to the game rules, the earliest a space ship part can be started is the same turn The Apollo Program is completed. However, the space ship part must take at least one turn to complete, thus it can be completed no earlier than one turn after The Apollo Program is completed.
------
Where can I upload the save file I mentioned above?
Never mind, I just uploaded the file. It is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/113297/AutoSave_AD-1395.CivWarlordsSave
I started a new thread in the Bug Report forum to report this bug:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...15#post5870115
Sun Tsu Wu
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
To have some reasonable assurance of peace with Peter, you probably need at least a diplomatic score of 4 with him (As I mentioned before, a score of 8 is probably pretty safe - with Peter that is). Even 8 is not safe with Montezuma.
Yes, declaring war does cancel all agreements with the target Civ (and also with all of its Vassals).
As far as I know, the only deal no Civ can cancel before the 10 turn limit is a Peace Treaty. However, that deal _must_ be canceled early by a Civ that becomes a Vassal to a third Civ, when you are already at war with the third Civ. The Vassal must comply with its Master, before it complies with an otherwise legally binding Peace Treaty.
I feel your pain.
Sun Tsu Wu
Here's the 4000BC file with starting screenshot. You are playing as Saladin against Bismark, Cyrus, Liz, Fred, Mansa, and Roos on a tropical medium inland sea map. Note it was only max 6 artists in my third legendary city, not 9. Still pretty good.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/119189/Sal_Dei_Sta_Inl_Qui_Anc_4000-BC_Tro_Med_Aug-18-2007_18-39-34_15_1.Civ4SavedGame
Spoiler :
Dracandross
Warlord
I agree, usually some add peter because of his starting techs are not too good on deity (no bonus). I don't use him (hey this is standard map you don't even need that many opps if going peaceful) because of that. If I want an aggressive AI I use Monty because everyone even slightly peaceful is mad at him therefore they can be bribed to keep monty busy and he wont attack me even if Im neighbour.
-Dracandross
It is very unlikely that the HOF Mod is the cause. Try the Bug Reports sub-forum.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
The save file that shows the bug reported in post #306 above is:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/113297/AutoSave_AD-1395.CivWarlordsSave
Sorry about the delay in uploading the file.
Sun Tsu Wu
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
I decided that I did have time to try this Gauntlet at least one more time (Warlords - I haven't played Vanilla Civ4 since I got Warlords):
Other than a good starting location with 2 gems, cows, fish and clams, everything seemed to go wrong.
I came up short on every religion I tried to found, until Taoism. Thus, wasting a lot of time getting to Alphabet (after failing to found Judaism by one turn).
Mansa Musa got to Liberalism in 160 BC. Is that a record for the AI? I was still researching Paper with Education and Liberalism on the queue. He also must have been the AI that built The Oracle. Perhaps I should not have traded technologies with him. I didn't create enough cottages to keep up or get ahead of the AIs by the time I researched Philosophy. Earlier, Mansa gave me Calendar and that should have been a clue that he was far ahead in research.
It gets worse: 160 BC is also the year that Washington declared war on me, right after he adopted Taoism, my religion. However, Washington is not swayed much by religion and he probably had already committed himself to a war with me years before. My Diplomatic score with Washington was around 0-1. Just before 160 BC, I created my second Great Work in a culture city near two of his cities which were both totally surrounded by my culture, except for one space per city. His attack seemed to be in response to my two culture bombs, but I doubt the AI responds to culture bombs, except indirectly as adjustments to the diplomatic score.
Well, at least it was a good learning experience.
HOF staff: Will G-Major-14 be extended?
Sun Tsu Wu
Other than a good starting location with 2 gems, cows, fish and clams, everything seemed to go wrong.
I came up short on every religion I tried to found, until Taoism. Thus, wasting a lot of time getting to Alphabet (after failing to found Judaism by one turn).
Mansa Musa got to Liberalism in 160 BC. Is that a record for the AI? I was still researching Paper with Education and Liberalism on the queue. He also must have been the AI that built The Oracle. Perhaps I should not have traded technologies with him. I didn't create enough cottages to keep up or get ahead of the AIs by the time I researched Philosophy. Earlier, Mansa gave me Calendar and that should have been a clue that he was far ahead in research.
It gets worse: 160 BC is also the year that Washington declared war on me, right after he adopted Taoism, my religion. However, Washington is not swayed much by religion and he probably had already committed himself to a war with me years before. My Diplomatic score with Washington was around 0-1. Just before 160 BC, I created my second Great Work in a culture city near two of his cities which were both totally surrounded by my culture, except for one space per city. His attack seemed to be in response to my two culture bombs, but I doubt the AI responds to culture bombs, except indirectly as adjustments to the diplomatic score.
Well, at least it was a good learning experience.
HOF staff: Will G-Major-14 be extended?
Sun Tsu Wu
No, it will not.
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
killerkane:
Peter is like 22 up from the bottom of the back stab chart, i.e., 10% chance of declaring war even when pleased, with a further 50% back stab and 50% war chance. Not for a peaceful game at all. Tried searching war academy for the back stab chart which lists all the leaders and their AI parameters, but couldn't find it. Perhaps someone here can point you to it.
Good pure peaceful leaders with 0% back stab and 0% attack when pleased include Gandhi, Hatshepsut, Frederick, Washington, and Cyrus. Although Ramesses and Agustus also have 0%/0% for these I find that they don't play well with the previous mentioned in regards to trading with my worst enemy penalties. Roosevelt with 75%/10% and Mansa Musa with 50%/10% rarely declare also due to their very low war chances of 17% and 13%, and they play well with the Gandhi-Cyrus guys. Asoka at 50%/0% is so so, too, but really I don't like Gandhi and Asoka because they have Mysticism starting tech and this is about getting religions first, eh? WastinTime likes to use Bismark 0%/10% and I used him in my only win in this gauntlet, but in general he is a pain declaring war on you or the other AIs. So my favorites are Cyrus, Frederick, Hatshepsut, Mansa Musa (who is mostly pretty nice and generous), Roosevelt, and Washington.
Having said that, I remarked in an earlier post that Warlords seems far more war like and I can't seem to avoid DoW from the AIs because even with a lot of 50% trades and gifts it is hard to get the AIs pleased in the first place. In vanilla Civ4 is no problem to build up huge pleased and friendly numbers by doing 50% trades, e.g., CoL 395 beakers for like 200 or so beakers equivalent or less. It is best to check the foreign adviser almost every turn to consider options. Gift what you will no longer be able to trade for goods. You get to know what is required to please a particular AI to get him to +4 trade. They will gift you later in many cases with cool stuff like machinery or even printing press. Since we strive to get to CoL and or alphabet first, we can rule the early trading and so 50% or less trades with 6 AIs can usually score all the early techs and get to pleased with everybody. WastinTime recommends to hold on to Alphabet until you notice one of the AIs getting it and only then unload it on everyone so as to control the early trading. If an AI tries to trade for alphabet I usually go "care to negociate" and then "never mind". Trades for or including gold, and trades for partially researched techs to make trades with cheaper stuff are useful as well. Use the "what will make this trade work" to see how much gold will be needed.
Glad this gauntlet is ending, though, as it was tiring.
Peter is like 22 up from the bottom of the back stab chart, i.e., 10% chance of declaring war even when pleased, with a further 50% back stab and 50% war chance. Not for a peaceful game at all. Tried searching war academy for the back stab chart which lists all the leaders and their AI parameters, but couldn't find it. Perhaps someone here can point you to it.
Good pure peaceful leaders with 0% back stab and 0% attack when pleased include Gandhi, Hatshepsut, Frederick, Washington, and Cyrus. Although Ramesses and Agustus also have 0%/0% for these I find that they don't play well with the previous mentioned in regards to trading with my worst enemy penalties. Roosevelt with 75%/10% and Mansa Musa with 50%/10% rarely declare also due to their very low war chances of 17% and 13%, and they play well with the Gandhi-Cyrus guys. Asoka at 50%/0% is so so, too, but really I don't like Gandhi and Asoka because they have Mysticism starting tech and this is about getting religions first, eh? WastinTime likes to use Bismark 0%/10% and I used him in my only win in this gauntlet, but in general he is a pain declaring war on you or the other AIs. So my favorites are Cyrus, Frederick, Hatshepsut, Mansa Musa (who is mostly pretty nice and generous), Roosevelt, and Washington.
Having said that, I remarked in an earlier post that Warlords seems far more war like and I can't seem to avoid DoW from the AIs because even with a lot of 50% trades and gifts it is hard to get the AIs pleased in the first place. In vanilla Civ4 is no problem to build up huge pleased and friendly numbers by doing 50% trades, e.g., CoL 395 beakers for like 200 or so beakers equivalent or less. It is best to check the foreign adviser almost every turn to consider options. Gift what you will no longer be able to trade for goods. You get to know what is required to please a particular AI to get him to +4 trade. They will gift you later in many cases with cool stuff like machinery or even printing press. Since we strive to get to CoL and or alphabet first, we can rule the early trading and so 50% or less trades with 6 AIs can usually score all the early techs and get to pleased with everybody. WastinTime recommends to hold on to Alphabet until you notice one of the AIs getting it and only then unload it on everyone so as to control the early trading. If an AI tries to trade for alphabet I usually go "care to negociate" and then "never mind". Trades for or including gold, and trades for partially researched techs to make trades with cheaper stuff are useful as well. Use the "what will make this trade work" to see how much gold will be needed.
Glad this gauntlet is ending, though, as it was tiring.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Thanks for the link to the Bug Reports forum. I started a new thread there to report this bug:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5870115#post5870115
Sun Tsu Wu
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Thanks Methos, for the quick response!
I had a great time trying many different strategies and reading about the many failures and occasional successes of other HOF Civfanatics.
I look forward to seeing another Deity Cultural Gauntlet, hopefully sometime soon.
Sun Tsu Wu
I am back! But no time for more 
Killercane, human player can also cancel OB before 10 turns. Just dow.
Everybody: I thought that every deity AI has every first tier tech at the begining of the game. If that's true, every AI starts with Mysticism.
Being dowed: you need to pick peaceful leaders and you need to have them pleased. Being short of time, I didn't want to risk a war this gauntlet, so I had them all pleased by 2000-1500BC by gifting them (part of) Alphabet and resources.
FiveAces: when I get the time I will try your map. Sounds fantastic.
Killercane, human player can also cancel OB before 10 turns. Just dow.
Everybody: I thought that every deity AI has every first tier tech at the begining of the game. If that's true, every AI starts with Mysticism.
Being dowed: you need to pick peaceful leaders and you need to have them pleased. Being short of time, I didn't want to risk a war this gauntlet, so I had them all pleased by 2000-1500BC by gifting them (part of) Alphabet and resources.
FiveAces: when I get the time I will try your map. Sounds fantastic.
Alan_of_Dale
Quattromaster
jesusin said:
"Everybody: I thought that every deity AI has every first tier tech at the beginning of the game. If that's true, every AI starts with Mysticism."
Extremely unlikely for this to be true about Mysticism because as Saladin against non Mysticism opponents I can guarantee that I get Meditation/Buddhism every single time by researching it first, even with an ordinary plains hill start next to a FP with one move to get there. But with Elizabeth against non Mysticism opponents it is extremely unlikely to get Meditation and Buddhism first because Mysticism must be researched first. I have only gotten it once by building on a gold hill next to an oasis.
Perhaps they get a couple of techs like human players get on the lowest level, but those never seem to include Mysticism as that would be OP.
"Everybody: I thought that every deity AI has every first tier tech at the beginning of the game. If that's true, every AI starts with Mysticism."
Extremely unlikely for this to be true about Mysticism because as Saladin against non Mysticism opponents I can guarantee that I get Meditation/Buddhism every single time by researching it first, even with an ordinary plains hill start next to a FP with one move to get there. But with Elizabeth against non Mysticism opponents it is extremely unlikely to get Meditation and Buddhism first because Mysticism must be researched first. I have only gotten it once by building on a gold hill next to an oasis.
Perhaps they get a couple of techs like human players get on the lowest level, but those never seem to include Mysticism as that would be OP.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
I thought they just got hunting and archery. If we all link hands and *giggle* maybe KMadCandy will appear and give us the answer, she seems to know random Civ facts better than anyone!
Similar threads
