G-Major 29

[Mesix]

I thought my last game was going pretty well. I was the most advanced civ early on, and had a continent to myself (bad for trading...good for expansion). I was able to get the Pyramids, Great Library, and Sistine Chapel built before the AI players started teching ahead and building all the wonders. I popped too many great sicientists, but I settled several (+9 research, +2 culture ain't bad).

My game lasted to 1900ish. One of my opponents had just finished Apollo Program (still had more tachs/parts so a long way from victory). I had 6 Great Artists ready to pop culture in my two secondary cities. I had 40K in my capitol, 20K in another and 15K in the third.

A few things really messed up this game. Only two religions spread to me. Popping more artists instead of scientists would have been ideal. The AI built the UN and forced Emancipation on me so I could only run 2 artists in most of my cities. The AI declared war on me and attacked with bombers, tanks, and marines vs. my musketmen. My fate was sealed at this point.

 

[jesusin]

jesusin first attempt write up: Gandhi was dowed in the BC.

jesusin second attempt write up:
Eliz on a PH, close FP, corn+gold+marble.

Builds: Wor-War-2t of SH-Set-half a Set-Oracle-finish Set
Techs: Agg-Myst-Mason-Medi-Wheel-PH-Wri-Free CoL-Alpha-CS-Liber-PP

With marble in the fatcross I wanted to try Oracle, but with a single gold and not researching Pott, a CS slingshot was impossible.
First mistake: forget to change from FP to oasis at border expansion. It cost me a turn of research.
Second mistake: Wheel should have been before Medi, I dreamt that the marble would get connected without a road, it cost me 4 worker turns.
Third mistake: the worker doesn't travel with the settler, so the second city (on PH, FP closeby) has to work unimproved tile at pop1 while building a worker. As a result, the city is unable to pop a GS before the Oracle GPro.

Oracle t43, Alpha t55, GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion, 4 cities by t65, bureaucracy t83, Parthe t88, Academy t96 (big mistake, so late it is better to bulb). NE very late t106, first artists hired t109.

By 1AD I have 3 cathedrals, 11temples, 1miss left, only doing 215 bpt because of severe whipping, only 86GPPpt, very few cottages.

Reached Liberalism t117 (50AD), 1 turn too late. So I had to research PP and trade PP+600g for Natio. End of research t125, save some money, realise Hermit in capital would be overkill, plant it in second city, end up with 7 cathedrals.

4 cities. GPFarm was running 9 artists in Mercant, secondary 6. Multipliers 4 - 4.5 -2.
Bombed 16 GA, won t202, 1420AD.

4 workers is not nearly enough for 4 cities.


Pious_Pete, please, take a look at the 1000BC save and try to discover what's the big difference with your 1000BC saves.

If anyone else looks at it, please, tell me what's MY big mistake.



EDIT:
No Goldan Ages
6 civics changes:
Sla+OR
Bu+Mo
CS+Pa
hindu
FS
Merc

 

[Mesix]

If you are winning in 1420 AD, I don't think that you are making a mistake.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

jesusin second attempt write up:
Eliz on a PH, close FP, corn+gold+marble.

I think a second commerce tile such as Gems would make a better start, but that would definitely require using MapFinder. Which map type did you use?

Who where your opponents? It has a big effect on the best strategy to use.

Builds: Wor-War-2t of SH-Set-half a Set-Oracle-finish Set

With the exception of Wor(ker), War(rior), and Oracle, I don't understand what you built here or when or how.

Techs: Agg-Myst-Mason-Medi-Wheel-PH-Wri-Free CoL-Alpha-CS-Liber-PP

Is Agg typo of Agr (Agriculture)? Is PH typo of AH (Animal Husbandry)?

You don't have Music listed as a goal. Did you trade for it? You obviously had it in the BC years, since you had 3 Cathedrals by 1 AD.

Can we assume that you beelined between successive Techs in your list above?

Did you found any religions?

With marble in the fatcross I wanted to try Oracle, but with a single gold and not researching Pott, a CS slingshot was impossible.

Perhaps it was mistake to have only one commerce tile in the starting fat cross? With a second commerce tile, maybe a CS slingshot would be possible.

You didn't research Pottery? Early cottages could make a big difference in research rate to Liberalism. May be useful to have early Granary for early Pop rushing too.

First mistake: forget to change from FP to oasis at border expansion. It cost me a turn of research.

For how long did you forget? 1 turn would be 2-3 beakers lost. A very trivial mistake.

Second mistake: Wheel should have been before Medi, I dreamt that the marble would get connected without a road, it cost me 4 worker turns.

I would do Wheel and Pottery much earlier.

Third mistake: the worker doesn't travel with the settler, so the second city (on PH, FP closeby) has to work unimproved tile at pop1 while building a worker. As a result, the city is unable to pop a GS before the Oracle GPro.

This could be a huge mistake, since an early Academy could make a huge difference in early research rate.

The Oracle was being built in a Hammer city?

And the GS in a future GP Farm?

Oracle t43, Alpha t55, GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion, 4 cities by t65, bureaucracy t83, Parthe t88, Academy t96 (big mistake, so late it is better to bulb). NE very late t106, first artists hired t109.

Amazingly early Oracle completion! Seems like it could have been delayed to get something better than Code of Laws, except perhaps your research rate wasn't nearly enough to complete all prerequisites of Civil Service before an AI could complete the Oracle.

"GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion" implies that you founded the three before it (including Taoism)? In other words, did you found four of the first five religions?

4 cities by t65 (BC 1400) is great!

First Artists at t109 seems later than it could be, but starting Artists significantly earlier would probably stunt Pop growth to some degree at least.

By 1AD I have 3 cathedrals, 11temples, 1miss left, only doing 215 bpt because of severe whipping, only 86GPPpt, very few cottages.

Three cathedrals and 11 temples by 1AD is truly spectacular!

I'll say it again, the cottage cities should have a lot of cottages well before t115 (1 AD).

Reached Liberalism t117 (50AD), 1 turn too late. So I had to research PP and trade PP+600g for Natio. End of research t125, save some money, realise Hermit in capital would be overkill, plant it in second city, end up with 7 cathedrals.

Too bad about not being first to Liberalism. Did you trade Education too early or did an AI already have it?

I agree that research must stop after Printing Press and Nationalism. I'll remember that in my second game. In my first game, I went for Democracy to use Universal Suffrage; I knew it was wrong to do, my game wasn't going to be a early date finish anyway, so I went for it.

4 cities. GPFarm was running 9 artists in Mercant, secondary 6. Multipliers 4 - 4.5 -2.
Bombed 16 GA, won t202, 1420AD.

I thought that running Mercantilism would cause too much of a reduction of trade (foreign trade brings in about twice as much as domestic trade). Is running Mercantilism really worth the lost of trade in the three Culture cities?

Did you really have 16 GAs or 16 GP total? If so, that means you had 18 GP total. Is that possible by t202 (AD 1420)?

Congratulations on what is probably the earliest winning date so far!

Multiplier 2 would be the big GP Farm. So, were 8 GAs bombed there? And the other 8 split between the Capital and third Culture city?

4 workers is not nearly enough for 4 cities.

Are you suggesting five? Or suggesting Gandhi for his Fast Worker?

If anyone else looks at it, please, tell me what's MY big mistake.

This can't be from the game you described above, since you said "GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion", but this save has Christianity founded by an unknown Civ.

For an actual "big" mistake, I'd say Literature should have been researched by now and the National Epic well under way.

Your four cities are extremely well developed for it being only t75! Congratulations.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

Wow, how many (sharp) comments, thank you.

I think a second commerce tile such as Gems would make a better start, but that would definitely require using MapFinder. Which map type did you use?

Inland Sea, low waters in order to help AIs.

Who where your opponents? It has a big effect on the best strategy to use.

Gandhi, Musa, Lincoln, Pericles


With the exception of Wor(ker), War(rior), and Oracle, I don't understand what you built here or when or how.

I am sorry.
Worker
Warrior
2 turns of production towards StoneHenge in order to grow before going for settlers
Settler
Start settler but interrupt it to go for...
Oracle
Finish the interrupted settler

Is Agg typo of Agr (Agriculture)? Yes. Is PH typo of AH (Animal Husbandry)?
No, PriestHood.


You don't have Music listed as a goal. Did you trade for it? You obviously had it in the BC years, since you had 3 Cathedrals by 1 AD.

Can we assume that you beelined between successive Techs in your list above?

Right. From CS to Liber I had to research Paper and Educ. I traded for everything else, Music, Philo, etc...

Did you found any religions?
Yes, 2. One from Oracle->CoL, another from bulbed GPro->Theo.


Perhaps it was mistake to have only one commerce tile in the starting fat cross? With a second commerce tile, maybe a CS slingshot would be possible.
Well, I wouldn't call that a mistake, I played with the map I had.

You didn't research Pottery? Early cottages could make a big difference in research rate to Liberalism. May be useful to have early Granary for early Pop rushing too.
In all the games I don't go for Oracle I beeline Pottery. Here I wanted an early Oracle to be sure to get a religion from CoL.Thus I sacrificed everything for Oracle.


For how long did you forget? 1 turn would be 2-3 beakers lost. A very trivial mistake.
5 turns. 2 beakers lost a turn. 10 beakers. A whole turn of early research.


I would do Wheel and Pottery much earlier.
Sacrificed for Oracle in this game. I traded for Pott. But I basically agree.


This could be a huge mistake, since an early Academy could make a huge difference in early research rate.
Yes. My Academy wwas so late I shouldn't even have built it.

The Oracle was being built in a Hammer city?
Not many cities available. At the time, my second city was pop1, so it had to be built in the capital.

And the GS in a future GP Farm?
It really doesn't matter what the city will be in the future, you generally want to get your first GS as soon as possible and you use the best available city at the time, whatever it is.


Amazingly early Oracle completion! Seems like it could have been delayed to get something better than Code of Laws, except perhaps your research rate wasn't nearly enough to complete all prerequisites of Civil Service before an AI could complete the Oracle.
Yes, I thought about finishing the second settler before Oracle, but I feared that someone could research CoL by hand, leaving me without the religion.


"GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion" implies that you founded the three before it (including Taoism)? In other words, did you found four of the first five religions?

I founded the religions coming from CoL and Theo. Gandhi was very close and infected me with 2 of his religions very early.

4 cities by t65 (BC 1400) is great!
I paid some 6 gold in maintenance because of the 4th one. A high price so soon. I had no option, since Pericles had taken one of the two possible locations for my 4th city.

First Artists at t109 seems later than it could be, but starting Artists significantly earlier would probably stunt Pop growth to some degree at least.

Around 500BC you are at your happy cap in every city anyway, so you want to start hiring artists.


Three cathedrals and 11 temples by 1AD is truly spectacular!
My enslaved pleople don't like it so much.
All my cities were high food, I whipped Granaries, Libraries, missionaries, temples and even 2 cathedrals after a single turn of growth.

I'll say it again, the cottage cities should have a lot of cottages well before t115 (1 AD).
You are right. After having delayed Pott so much, I should have had more Workers for a cottage explosion.


Too bad about not being first to Liberalism. Did you trade Education too early or did an AI already have it?
I should have refrained my trades a bit longer. I gave away CoL. Later on, I gave CS+Paper in order to get Philo and Music.


I agree that research must stop after Printing Press and Nationalism. I'll remember that in my second game. In my first game, I went for Democracy to use Universal Suffrage; I knew it was wrong to do, my game wasn't going to be a early date finish anyway, so I went for it.
I'd go even further, most of the times researching PP is a bad idea. I had to research PP or Natio in order to get Natio.
I normally get PP a few turns before the end of the game via the single beaker the artists give. Or bu trade.


I thought that running Mercantilism would cause too much of a reduction of trade (foreign trade brings in about twice as much as domestic trade). Is running Mercantilism really worth the lost of trade in the three Culture cities?
With 6-8 cities working as GPFarms, yes, without a doubt. In my game, with only 2 GPFarms, it was worth it. The commerce from trade routes went from 8 to 2, -6, but I got 4 culture from the artist. So I only lost 2 raw culture in the city that lost the most. The GPP are far more valuable than a few culture points.
Did you really have 16 GAs or 16 GP total? If so, that means you had 18 GP total. Is that possible by t202 (AD 1420)?
18GP total. I have had 22GP total by 1350AD in other games. Aiming for 15 is ok. Since my cottages where so underdevelopped, I had to compensate.

Congratulations on what is probably the earliest winning date so far!
Really? If I had thought it was a competitive date I wouldn't have revealed it. I expect the winner of the Gauntlet to get a 1300AD date, more or less.


Multiplier 2 would be the big GP Farm. So, were 8 GAs bombed there? And the other 8 split between the Capital and third Culture city?
I believe it was 1 in the capital, 5 in the second city, 10 in the GPFarm. The last 2 (capital+second cottage city) only saved 1 turn each, and they cost a severe starvation of the capital.

Are you suggesting five? Or suggesting Gandhi for his Fast Worker?
Most would players would say 6 Workers for 4 cities. I think I would have done with 5.

This can't be from the game you described above, since you said "GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion", but this save has Christianity founded by an unknown Civ.
It's the same game. It is a BTS game and I checked the option "choose religion" so any religion can be founded from any of the 7 techs.


For an actual "big" mistake, I'd say Literature should have been researched by now and the National Epic well under way.
I like to get Liberalism in the BC and go 100% culture immediately, so I don't detour to Music. However, all I know comes from Vanilla. In BTS the Music detour gives a lot: earlier NE, free GA, earlier Cathedrals, doublepowered Sistine's, good trade value... So I think I should try.

When do you recommend to go for Music, before or after CS?

Your four cities are extremely well developed for it being only t75! Congratulations.

Thank you for your questions.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Pious_Pete]

Space race loss to Asoka 1710

Version: Vanilla
Civ: Elizabeth
Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa
Map: Inland Sea
Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, Gems + misc grasslands and forests
Alpha 1640 BC, CS 400 BC, Lib 325 AD. Won the race!
No world wonders.
3GS (Philo, Edu,Edu). 11 GA. (3 from secondary GP farm)

Confucionism spread early, and founded Philo for Toaism. Third religion spread c1200 (which I did lead to another round of cats).

Getting philo first proved useful since, as well as the religion, I also traded it for Music, so I got my cats started much earlier than usual, which was a useful bonus.

The GP farm was great, running 7 artists, and the secondary GP farm ran 6 artists, so this lead to far more artists than my usual tally.

Indeed, at the end of the game, I was probably only 16 turns or so off victory.

The only flaw with the GP farm in this game was that I tried to run state-religion+pacifism as soon as I got philo; but my relations with Mansa plumetted fast and I switched back to non-state religion a.s.a.p. Somewhat burnt by this experience, I waited too long to adopt a state-religion again.

All in all, this was a big improvement; but still, no banana.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

Congrats Pete on winning the Liberalism race. It sounds like you are making progress.

As for me, I think that I might eventually get it. I am not going for time here, just for the actual non-cheese Quechua rush victory. If using PA is considered cheese by some, too bad. It's actually much harder than it sounds.

I was playing the other Major, the Immortal Space and in trying to butter up Wang Kon for a PA, nearly wiped myself out. I had a huge SoD on my doorstep. For some reason, they did not attack all at once. Thankfully they didn't. The next turn I got the PA and made peace. Something like 2-3 turns later, we got a cultural victory.


Now, as for this Gauntlet I tried against Darius, Sitting Bull, Washington and Gandhi. With Pericles, I managed the Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, SoZ, Parthenon, Sistine Chapel and I think one other, maybe the Oracle. Sitting Bull had to reinforce several cities, because of my culture. I started grooming Darius for the PA when he cities were looking well on pace. But then Washington seemed to be closer. I when with an easy PA with Darius, no wars involved, just a long DP. Athens is already legendary, and I have saved about 4 GAs. I gift two to Darius and I have no idea where they went. He planted them in the Capital which was already only 37 turns away! I settled a few in the next best city, but it was going to take over 200-300 years. Funny thing was that before the PA, he's building cathedrals to push back SB's culture, but then he's building huge military in the core cities and spaceship parts in the crap cities. I am holding out for culture, but then I thought diplo might be better. It was difficult to manipulate things and then I noticed that they are very, very few Deity Time victories. I had a new goal and was happy clicking return and collecting Future Techs. But then Washington launches his spaceship! So that same turn we declare war, but we only have 10 turns to conquer Washington (the city, not the guy). I am totally relying on Darius' army and navy, because I got nothing. We also launch our ship, and it has the extra thruster or something and we either beat them by one turn or tied and ended up still winning.

So, the moral of my stories seems to try for space ship and fall in to a cultural victory, not vice versa. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Pious_Pete]

Why do you wait until Liberalism to run Pacifism? Isn't pacifism crucial to maximising great artists?

Pacifism + a state religion, yes. The problem is the state religion. It's an open invitation to war.

Prior to this gauntlet, I always waited until all (but one) of my opponents adopted free religion. But this is of course too timid for this gauntlet.

Following a comment by someone in a post in this forum, I decided to switch earlier (at Liberalism) and for the most part this seemed to be OK (only one DOW); but as I am now learning, this is still too timid.

In my last game, I tried switching straight away at philo; but as this brought on the wrath of Mansa, I chickened out. I'm not quite sure when the appropriate time to adopt a state-religion is.

 

[Pious_Pete]

You must take a religion earlier. You need the benefit or OR/Pacifism asap. Mostly pacifism.

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

 

[Pious_Pete]

Four opponents is great; plenty of space for everyone on a single landmass map with optional seas (You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing).

So what map would you recommend? I've been playing Inland Sea to fill in a slot in my EQM list. This does have some water; but I can't say that the seafood resources have really played a significant part in any of my games.

As time is progressing, and I clearly need as much going for me as possible, I guess I ought to try switching to a more optimal map. Perhaps I should switch to Pangea with high seas?

 

[ShannonCT]

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

Choose opponents who don't care much about religious difference, like Asoka, Cyrus, and Roosevelt. The benefits of Organized Religion and Pacifism are worth the risk.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Four opponents is great; plenty of space for everyone on a single landmass map with optional seas (You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing).

So what map would you recommend? I've been playing Inland Sea to fill in a slot in my EQM list. This does have some water; but I can't say that the seafood resources have really played a significant part in any of my games.

By "You want seas for Elizabeth's early Fishing", all I mean is a map type without seas would be wasting one of Elizabeth's starting Technologies (Fishing). However, that doesn't mean you want to avoid all non-sea Maps when playing Elizabeth. You will be forced to make compromises in every game you play; it's part of what makes Civ 4 generally more interesting to play versus previous versions (Civ 1-3).

What map to play depends on what strategy you plan to use. If you look at the nine GM-29 games that entered the Cultural Small Normal table (on the 6/25 update), you will see very different strategies. You will see that the 4-5 top games used Inland Sea Maps.

jesusin said he likes to use Low Inland Seas to help the IAs. Of course he means to increase commerce, since trade routes become available earlier via the Sea and all the Rivers that flow into it. It forms a wheel shaped trade network. To get the Sea trade routes though, Sailing might be needed for either Civilization.

I would also recommend Low Inland Seas. I would agree that Inland Sea is the easiest Map to win a Cultural Victory on. That doesn't necessarily mean its the best for this gauntlet though. However, I do think that Inland Sea is both a good map for those trying to win (earliest date) the gauntlet and those who simply want to win a game (regardless of the end date).

As time is progressing, and I clearly need as much going for me as possible, I guess I ought to try switching to a more optimal map. Perhaps I should switch to Pangea with high seas?

I would stick with Inland Sea; it is a sound Map for a Cultural Win.

Try to get a start with at least two food resources and two commerce resources and maybe a few floodplains. It's important to have the advantage of a good start and manage this advantage through to victory!

If your goal is to simply win a game with GM-29 parameters, then your strategy for winning probably will be slightly different from those trying to get the best date. To get the best date, one sometimes must take risks. However, to just win a game, one should try to minimize the risks to the extent that no AI will finish before you.

I would suggest doing what jesusin does in his cultural games, except add something to reduce the risk without making your expected win later than an AI's actual win.

You mentioned not taking a State Religion for fear of being attacked. If you make the fourth city be a high hammer (20H) city that can spam Missionaries, you can have everyone adopt your Sate Religion. To make this more solid, try to found all seven Religions, so all AIs will have only your State Religion or No State Religion. To create synergy for this strategy, do not pick any opponent with Mysticism as a starting Technology (This includes both Gandhi and Asoka) or any other Leader that researches Religious Technologies more than average (This may include Hatshepsut).

Also, take a clue from jesusin's recent game that he shared. Settle cities in high food areas, grow them fast and whip them hard. Don't shy away from stacking Unhappiness due to whipping; just don't exceed the Happiness limit. Food will be the source of your Population and Hammers (in the early game at least). I personally love seeing growth that exceeds 10F for the whipping potential. Don't forget rule #1, first thing to be whipped is a Granary! Without a Granary, your whipping will be only 50% as efficient as with.

Finally, it is OK to try to win without building World Wonders, but your base Culture will suffer from lack of World Wonder Culture. If you build just one WW, #1 on the list should be The Sistine Chapel. (Unfortunately, this will mean an early beeline to Music, but this may be worthwhile for BTS but only with a State Religion!) Other World Wonders with Artist GPPs are good choices, but rarely as good as The Sistine Chapel.

An alternative to WW for base Culture is early Monasteries which start with 2 Cpt and go up to 4 Cpt after a 1000 years. Monuments are just as good (half the Culture at half the Price), but only one per city can be built, whereas one Monastery per Religion in a City can be built. You may want to built Libraries even earlier due to there Research boost. Build all Culture generating buildings, especially the half price Universities (which effectively cost just a little more than a Library).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

Choose Leaders whose Favourite Civic matches the Civics you plan to use for the most the game. It's a great way to get an easy diplomatic boost.

The key is high diplomacy. Try looking at the UN Diplomatic game guides for all the other ways of improving diplomacy.

In my GM-29 game, I came to a point where I had high diplomacy with two AIs, and low (1 and 3) with the other two. One of these (Diplomacy=1) was a vassal of one of the ones with high diplomacy, so no problem. To get the other Civ's diplomacy higher at the expense of the others, I simply signed a Defensive Pact with him. As a rule, I avoid DP in Cultural games, but since the major powers seemed well balanced, I thought the risk of War between them was low and went for it.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Space race loss to Asoka 1710

Possibly trading too early? You want to help the AIs to research fast so you can trade with them to keep up as much as possible, but later in the game try to trade with the slower Civs, so as not to boost the faster Civs into a win.

Version: Vanilla

Sorry, I thought you were playing BTS like nearly everyone else in GM-29. The Sistine Chapel isn't quite so important in Vanilla (or Warlords), but in Vanilla (or Warlords) it is available with Theology (instead of with Music in BTS), so it's on the beeline to Liberalism. If you build an early Oracle, you can use the Great Prophet it will generate to bulb Theology and get a head start on The Sistine Chapel.

Opps: Asoka, Cyrus, Hatty, Mansa

Here is list of what I consider the most peaceful BTS Leaders

Asoka, Augustus, Darius I, Elizabeth, Frederick, Gandhi, Hammurabi, Hatshepsut, Lincoln, Mansa Musa, Roosevelt, Sitting Bull, Victoria, Wang Kon, Washington.

You can filter out the BTS and Warlords Leader and will be left Peaceful Leaders for Vanilla, but I could be wrong about this:

Asoka, Elizabeth, Frederick, Gandhi, Hatshepsut, Mansa Musa, Roosevelt, Victoria, Wang Kon, Washington.

Start: Wheat, Plains Hill, Gems + misc grasslands and forests

Try to get 2nd food or floodplains and 2nd commerce tile in fat cross of capital. Corn for Food and Gems for Commerce is best for first tile of each type. The second Food and Commerce tile could be a different type or the same and then traded.

The grasslands are great for cottages.

The forests are great for chopping, but not necessarily for Settlers and Workers. It may be better to pre-chop and then chop when a resource multiplier will up to double the hammers produced for a building or wonder.

Alpha 1640 BC, CS 400 BC, Lib 325 AD. Won the race!

Alphabet can be researched by turn 50 (BC 2000) or even earlier. adding a 2nd Commerce tile (Gems, Gold, Silver, or Fur) can greatly increase early research.

Winning the Liberalism race makes winning a Cultural game much easier. Congratulations!

No world wonders.

I'm impressed. It takes extra skill to win a Cultural Victory without WWs. At least you won't be wasting Hammers on them. I still think you should build some key World Wonders though.

3GS (Philo, Edu,Edu). 11 GA. (3 from secondary GP farm)

I would use only one GS on Education and manually research the rest. Half the second GS for Eduction is wasted in terms of Beakers actually consumed. In stead of a third GS, I would have generated an extra GA.

You should be able to have more than 14 total Great People by AD 1710. This is probably due to not running Pacifism often enough or perhaps not running enough Artists in the two GP Farms. WWs with Artist GPP could also help, if they were built. However, the real problem was probably not enough food to support enough Artists most of the time.

In my GM-29 game, I had 1GS and 12GA by AD 1710, so you did better than I did. However, jesusin in his GM-29 AD 1420 win had a total of 18 GPs. So, we can both improve in this regard.

Confucionism spread early, and founded Philo for Toaism. Third religion spread c1200 (which I did lead to another round of cats).

It would be better to have more earlier Religions. Sometimes an early road to a neighbor can help the spread of Religion naturally, but this shouldn't be an issue for Inland Sea with its natural Sea trade routes.

The third Religion at AD 12xx was a bit late, but building the corresponding Cathedrals was the right thing to do. It is clear that they were finished well before the expected Cultural Victory turn, so building Culture would not have been a better option.

Getting philo first proved useful since, as well as the religion, I also traded it for Music, so I got my cats started much earlier than usual, which was a useful bonus.

Brilliant move!

I really think it is key to get those Culture multipliers built as early as possible.

Note that the rule about no multipliers in the GP Farm is correct, not just because it they are hard to build there, but also they are best built in the two cities with the highest base Culture, since that way they maximize total Culture. Be careful not to put too many Culture multipliers in the city with the highest base Culture such than it becomes Legendary before there are enough GAs to win; if that is the case, too many of your Culture multipliers were put into this city. If the City with the second highest base Culture becomes Legendary first, you clearly put too many Culture multipliers in it. Ideally, the city with the highest base Culture will become Legendary on the turn you win _without_ GAs bombing it. The majority of the GAs will go into the GP Farm and a smaller # of GAs with go into the second Commerce City.

The GP farm was great, running 7 artists, and the secondary GP farm ran 6 artists, so this lead to far more artists than my usual tally.

This is really good, especially 6 Artists in the secondary GP Farm. However, your GP Farm should be running a few more than 7 Artists. Maybe more food in the fat cross is needed. If you had an extra irrigated Corn (6F), you could support 2 more Artists with 3 more in Population (one working the Corn and 2 working as Artists). That would make 9 Artists in the GP Farm. If you weren't running Mercantilism, running it would allow a free Artist in every city.

The only flaw with the GP farm in this game was that I tried to run state-religion+pacifism as soon as I got philo; but my relations with Mansa plumetted fast and I switched back to non-state religion a.s.a.p. Somewhat burnt by this experience, I waited too long to adopt a state-religion again.

Not running Pacifism with a State Religion is ultimately what cost you this game. You are correct to be cautious about converting to a Religion when many of your opponents have conflicting State Religions. However, you can safely convert to a State Religion, even when there are many conflicting Religions. Just be sure to get and keep your diplomacy to at least +3 (preferable above +7) with everyone. (Check the UN Diplomacy guides for all the details on how to do this).

I really hope you win a GM-29 game. You are really progressing and I'm sure you will eventually win. I'm responding to your posts in the hope that I can can help in some small way. If we help each other, we will all become better players as a result, much more so than if we all played in isolation.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[FiveAces]

But how to you steer clear of DOWs?

Well you can't avoid them 100%, especially in the BC years. But basically you choose from this list of opponents: Mansa, Liz, Roos, Cyrus, Hatty, Ghandi, Asoka, Washington. Then you make sure that your alpha+CoL trading makes everyone pleased - none of these AI's will DOW you if they are pleased. And if you have a choice, you take a neighbor's religion, since you want to avoid a neighbor dropping to cautious if at all possible once you become a land target.

 

[Mesix]

I played several games with Ghandi, Hatty, Lincoln, and Mansa Musa and had no DOW in any of them.

 

[Mesix]

You mentioned not taking a State Religion for fear of being attacked. If you make the fourth city be a high hammer (20H) city that can spam Missionaries, you can have everyone adopt your Sate Religion. To make this more solid, try to found all seven Religions, so all AIs will have only your State Religion or No State Religion. To create synergy for this strategy, do not pick any opponent with Mysticism as a starting Technology (This includes both Gandhi and Asoka) or any other Leader that researches Religious Technologies more than average (This may include Hatshepsut).

How many leaders are there that do not start with Mysticism on Diety level? All the AIs start with several bonus techs. Do you have a list of AI leaders that do not have Mysticism as their starting tech at Diety level?

So far in my attempts, I have steared clear of the religious techs. I am able to trade for them when I get Alphabet. I generally get 4-5 religions spread to me by the AI players anyway. The only thing I am missing out on is the gold from the religious shrines (but then that would require a Great Prophet which would be a wasted Great Person...no?).

 

[FiveAces]

Mysticism does not seem to be a bonus tech for anyone. If you play Saladin against opponents that don't have it as a standard tech, you will always found bud or hindu, so no one can have it from the start.

 

[Mesix]

Good to know. I just assume that they all have it, and plan to not found religions. I have been bee lining for Alphabet (for trading) and Music (for the Sistine Chapel). Maybe I will give religion spam a try.

In my last game, all of the AI adopted Judism except one. I went along with the majority and it worked out well. It helped that Ghandi was the lone follower of Hinduism. I don't think he will declare war unless you really work hard to piss him off.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Comments in green are my original comments/questions.

Comments in blue are my current comments/questions.

Wow, how many (sharp) comments, thank you.

My hope is we learn from each other this way.

Who where your opponents? It has a big effect on the best strategy to use.

Gandhi, Musa, Lincoln, Pericles

There are numerous ways that opponent choices are synergistic with strategy. Let us discuss just one I've previously mentioned in this thread ...

The Favourite Civic of these opponents don't have much use in boosting diplomacy with them. There respective Favourite Civics are:

(Gandhi) Universal Suffrage, (Mansa Musa) Free Market, (Lincoln) Emancipation, (Pericles) Representation

There isn't much chance that Emancipation or Free Market will be much use in a Cultural Victory attempt. Both Universal Suffrage and Representation would be unlikely too, unless The Pyramids is built, but US and Rep can't be run at the same time. The Favourite Civic of each opponent must each be in a unique category to have any hope of pleasing all opponents by running their Favourite Civic.

The entire list of BTS Leaders including their Favourite Civic can be found here:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/civilizations/

Right. From CS to Liber I had to research Paper and Educ. I traded for everything else, Music, Philo, etc...

Seems like you did a beeline to Liberalism with a early diversion to Alphabet and traded fro everything else. Very impressive and very efficient!

Did you found any religions?

Yes, 2. One from Oracle->CoL, another from bulbed GPro->Theo.

Gandhi may not have been a good choice of opponent, if you wanted to found Religions, since his starting Mysticism gave him too much of a head start.

Perhaps it was mistake to have only one commerce tile in the starting fat cross? With a second commerce tile, maybe a CS slingshot would be possible.

Well, I wouldn't call that a mistake, I played with the map I had.

You could regenerate or use Mapfinder to find a better starting position.

The Oracle was being built in a Hammer city?

Not many cities available. At the time, my second city was pop1, so it had to be built in the capital.

Well, hopefully your capital had a few hammers. Did you whip The Oracle? I'm still amazed by your t41 completion of it.

Three cathedrals and 11 temples by 1AD is truly spectacular!

My enslaved pleople don't like it so much.
All my cities were high food, I whipped Granaries, Libraries, missionaries, temples and even 2 cathedrals after a single turn of growth.

Whipping two Cathedrals after a single turn of "growth"? Did you mean of "building"? In any case, whipping Cathedrals is truly amazing! The Cathedral whipping must have cost a lot of Population. Do you remember how much?

Was your growth so high in some cities that they grew 1 Population per turn?

Too bad about not being first to Liberalism. Did you trade Education too early or did an AI already have it?

I should have refrained my trades a bit longer. I gave away CoL. Later on, I gave CS+Paper in order to get Philo and Music.

Perhaps just waiting a few turns before trading for Philosophy and Music may have been the advantage you needed to be first to Liberalism. However, you made the right move; you were just unlucky; it's just too hard to know how long to delay trades.

Congratulations on what is probably the earliest winning date so far!

Really? If I had thought it was a competitive date I wouldn't have revealed it. I expect the winner of the Gauntlet to get a 1300AD date, more or less.

Are you sure that AD 1300 is possible? That's 12 turns shorter than your AD 1420 win. Maybe, it is possible with a better Capital site.

Multiplier 2 would be the big GP Farm. So, were 8 GAs bombed there? And the other 8 split between the Capital and third Culture city?

I believe it was 1 in the capital, 5 in the second city, 10 in the GPFarm. The last 2 (capital+second cottage city) only saved 1 turn each, and they cost a severe starvation of the capital.

Excellent! Near perfect calculation of the Culture multipliers to go into the city of the highest base Culture resulting in almost no GA bombs required there.

In my GM-29 game, I missed Legendary in one city by just 10 Culture and I'm positive I could have avoided by working Towns instead of higher food tiles near the end with extreme starvation. I didn't plan the last few turns nearly as well as I could.

This can't be from the game you described above, since you said "GPro bulbs Theo for a 4th religion", but this save has Christianity founded by an unknown Civ.

It's the same game. It is a BTS game and I checked the option "choose religion" so any religion can be founded from any of the 7 techs.

Is there any advantage to choosing a Religion? Yes, it is obvious. You can pick the Religion based on which strategic resource you have for building the corresponding Cathedral twice as fast.

When do you recommend to go for Music, before or after CS?

Definitely after.

There should be enough time to get to Civil Service (especially with a slingshot via The Oracle) and still beat the AI to Music. The BTS AIs don't seem too intersted in researching Aesthetics. I would do something like:

Alphabet -> Aesthetics -> Civil Service -> Music -> Liberalism

With extremely aggressive research, Education slingshot, and numerous bulbs, it may be possible to do something like this:

Alphabet -> Aesthetics -> Civil Service -> Liberalism -> Music

I may have done this before in Warlords, but definitely not at Deity level (perhaps Monarch - Immortal level). I'm joking about an Education slingshot at Deity level, but with the proper preparation, even that might be possible after all.

Thank you for your questions.

You are welcome.

Sun Tzu Wu