G-Minor 32

[FiveAces]

I used my second GE to build Globe Theatre fast, so I could increase Population and Artists to build early Great Artists fast. In my opinion, this is better than gifting the GE to your future PA partner in hopes that he use it to build a Great Wonder in the correct city.

You don't have to gift the GE to finish a wonder or building in your PA's city. just move him to the city and the hurry production (or whatever it is called) button should light up.

I think the culture gained from accelerating eiffel or one of the +50% wonders with a GE is going to outweigh that from sistine or globe.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Very interesting, Sun Tzu Wu and Shoot the Moon.

I'd say that the only two purposes of our capital is to get to MilTra asap and to farm as many GA as possible and asap. ...

I don't quite agree that getting to Military Tradition ASAP is that important. Getting the PA ASAP, is more important. Doing that via Military Tradition ASAP is one way, but there may be other quicker routes to the PA, such as becoming a war ally with your future PA partner.

... With this idea in mind I'd say that Pyramids and Oracle hasn't paid off in the analysed game, since MilTra was got around 1000AD, instead of around 1AD. In addition they both will polute the GPpool.

I made several serious mistakes in my game, so don't assume that the 1000 AD date for Liberalism -> Military Tradition is the best possible via Pyramids/Representation and The Oracle/Civil Service.

I agree that using the The Oracle to get Civil Service may not be worth the resultant Great Prophet "pollution" of our Great Artist farm. There may be better ways to get Civil Service early (or avoid it entirely -- but the synergy of OCC and Bureaucracy is probably too great to ignore and not use CS/B).

However, The Pyramids/early Representation and a OCC Great Person Farm form a synergy that to too great to ignore. With Representation, Artists generate 4 base Beakers versus 1 base Beaker without. Representation also provides +3 happiness somewhat early in the game. Also, Great Engineers can actually be more valuable than Great Artists, especially the early ones that can be gifted/directly used to rush World Wonders by our (future) PA partner that will generate 6-10 Cpt and 12-20 Cpt after the passage of a thousand years. The latter 12-20 Cpt is as good or better than settling a GA which can't even be done until the PA is signed. In any case, our Great Artist Farm should grow so quickly that our large number of Artists should effectively drown out the single Great engineer source (after perhaps 0-2 Great Engineers are born).

In my opinion, getting The Pyramids early is part of a good strategy, especially when Stone is within 3 tiles of the capital.

jesusin, how do you get to Liberalism -> Military Tradition by 1 AD? Cottages in addition to Artists? Technology Trading (isn't the AI too slow to really help)?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I used my second GE to build Globe Theatre fast, so I could increase Population and Artists to build early Great Artists fast. In my opinion, this is better than gifting the GE to your future PA partner in hopes that he use it to build a Great Wonder in the correct city.

I used my first Great Engineer to rush The Sistine Chapel, because I didn't have Marble and I really wanted it fast. Roosevelt ran a lot of Specialists (though very few Artists) after the PA so the Sistine Chapel did generate enough Culture to justify using the GE to rush it.

I can't be sure, but I think those 2 decisions are wrong.
I agree with the idea of building those 2 wonders. I don't think you were in such a hurry, though. Just build them the normal way. What did you build after them? Where you really in such a hurry to build the next thing?

In general, you are probably right about the the Globe Theatre. However, for my relatively low hammer capital, using a GE to rush the Globe Theatre was probably the right choice. Otherwise, it would have taken about 20 turns to build it. At this point, my Population was being limited by both happiness and health. Being able to ignore happiness and trade pure happiness resources for health resources and happiness resources with a building related health bonus to significantly raise the health limit was a real boom to my Great Artist Farm.

You are absolutely right about The Sistine Chapel. It would have taken about 40 turns to build, but I didn't really have anything else to build, except a few Missionaries. In any case, since my future PA partner probably wasn't running many Specialists until much later completing The Sistine Chapel early was no real help.

I agree that one should have very good reasons to use a GE on his own capital, since our PA partner needs all the Great People we can spare. (We shouldn't have any Great People other than GEs or GAs for our PA Partner and one GS to build an early Academy in our capital.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

After the PA is signed, you can use it on a wonder he is building yourself (i.e. you can choose to only use it once a wonder is started in one of the two cities). With the PA you don't have to gift it to him to use it.

I never had a GE after the PA was signed, so never realized that could be done.

Of course, before the PA is signed, you must gift a GE to your future PA partner, preferable in the city where the Wonder/Cathedral you want to rush is located and hope that the AI does indeed rush it with your gifted GE.

That is exactly what I do. I played as Elizabeth (warlords, Phi,Fin). My opening research is Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Alpha. I skip AH and Agri because cottaged floodplains are more important to get up (and provide all the opening food I need). I cottage all of my grassland and floodplains until I get biology, and then switch them to farms.

Thanks for explaining how you get research done faster. I thought a pure Specialist Economy would work for a OCC, PA and Cultural goal, but I'm not sure I can get research done as fast as you and especially jesusin are doing it.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, how do you get to Liberalism -> Military Tradition by 1 AD? Cottages in addition to Artists? Technology Trading (isn't the AI too slow to really help)?

I prioritize beaker techs and I beeline to MilTra. I mean, my first techs are wheel and pottery, to start with the cottages asap. No religion or anything fancy. Then Writing and hire scientist immediately. Then CS and the Academy. Then Education and Oxford, etc...

I could have made a better job farming GAs, though.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Thanks for explaining how you get research done faster. I thought a pure Specialist Economy would work for a OCC, PA and Cultural goal, but I'm not sure I can get research done as fast as you and especially jesusin are doing it.

I view a Specialist Economy as a trade off. If you can get the DP around 400 A.D. it could be worth it. What you have to get in return is more GAs to settle when the PA is signed. Although considering that I had 6 GA and 1 GE (in addition to one bombed GA already) when the PA is signed, I'm not sure how much more you could possibly get. I will do the match latter tonight to figure out how many more GA you would need to make up for the latter PA.

@Jesusin: You just outlined my strategy almost perfectly, except that I slot in Drama for the Globe Theatre after CS. Was your actual date for DP 1 AD? That's 350 years before mine. Although I suspect I was in a better position GA wise at that point.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I prioritize beaker techs and I beeline to MilTra. I mean, my first techs are wheel and pottery, to start with the cottages asap. No religion or anything fancy. Then Writing and hire scientist immediately. Then CS and the Academy. Then Education and Oxford, etc...

I could have made a better job farming GAs, though.

Since cottages are important to your strategy, you are probably playing as Elizabeth (Philosophical & Financial in both Vanilla & Warlords).

When do convert the cottages to farms? After Biology like Shoot the Moon does? Or earlier?

Do you mine and work a Gems tile (or other commerce resource) very early in the game for an initial Research rate boost?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

You don't have to gift the GE to finish a wonder or building in your PA's city. just move him to the city and the hurry production (or whatever it is called) button should light up.

OK, but I don't like keeping an early GE (for example, from The Pyramids) until the PA is signed; that could be a very long time. I prefer to gift the GE early into a future PA partner's top two Culture cities that is building a World Wonder, such as on the same turn that the corresponding prerequisite Technology is given to them. I would pick the non-capital city and hope that is the correct choice. Has anyone gotten this to work?

I think the culture gained from accelerating eiffel or one of the +50% wonders with a GE is going to outweigh that from sistine or globe.

That is true, but The Sistine Chapel and Globe Theatre are available far earlier than The Eiffel Tower, Broadway, Rock N Roll or Hollywood, so I don't see this as an either-or choice. In other words, Sistine Chapel and Globe Theatre will be built far before any of the +50% Culture Wonders are even available.

However, it may be a good tactic to give one's future PA partner Theology as soon as one researches it, so one's PA partner may start building The Sistine Chapel many turns before other AIs get Theology. Before the PA, the future PA partner needs The Sistine Chapel more than we do.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Do you mine and work a Gems tile (or other commerce resource) very early in the game for an initial Research rate boost?

I do. A worker is my first build, and Elizabeth starts with mining.

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Anyway, here's the math on how many more GAs a specialist economy will have to produce. I'm going to use my PA date and GA amount for comparison, and assume a 500 A.D. DP for the specialist economy.

My PA was signed on turn 171 (was actually 173 because of 2 turns of dropped DP but I will ignore that here).
500 A.D. = Turn 135= turn 176 for PA

So the the Specialist will have to make up 5 turns of GA culture production:
7GA * 14cpt * 5 turns= 490 culture

I finished on turn 304.
304-176= 128 turns to make up that culture.

490/128= 3.8 cpt to make up.

So if the specialist economy can produce even 1 more GA by the PA signing time, it should come out ahead.

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I will repeat those calc's for a 1000 A.D. DP:

1000 A.D. = turn 160= PA on turn 201 = 30 turns later

7GA * 14cpt * 30 turns= 2940 cpt

304-201=103 turns to make it up

2940/103= 28.5 cpt
So 2 more GA required.

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However those calc's don't take into account the amount of GA the regular game will generate over that time. If a specialist economy could get the DP in 500 A.D. it could definitely be worthwhile. (At least compared to my game, I would be interested to see Jesusin use the numbers from his game here). I don't believe 1000 A.D. could do it though.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I view a Specialist Economy as a trade off. If you can get the DP around 400 A.D. it could be worth it. What you have to get in return is more GAs to settle when the PA is signed. Although considering that I had 6 GA and 1 GE (in addition to one bombed GA already) when the PA is signed, I'm not sure how much more you could possibly get. I will do the match latter tonight to figure out how many more GA you would need to make up for the latter PA.

I look forward to your analysis.

A pure Specialist Economy must research almost as fast as the combination SE/CE that you and jesusin are running. In my opinion, the only way to do this is to run Representation very early and that requires building The Pyramids. So, I suspect that your analysis would need to assume that The Pyramids is built very early and Representation is run from that moment forward.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Do you mine and work a Gems tile (or other commerce resource) very early in the game for an initial Research rate boost?

I do. A worker is my first build, and Elizabeth starts with mining.

My first build is also a worker, and Warlords Gandhi also starts with Mining. The first thing my Worker does is build a Gems mine.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Sun Tzu Wu, any comments on my analysis? I think it would become much more insightful if jesusin were to compare it to his game and dates also.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Anyway, here's the math on how many more GAs a specialist economy will have to produce. I'm going to use my PA date and GA amount for comparison, and assume a 500 A.D. DP for the specialist economy.

My PA was signed on turn 171 (was actually 173 because of 2 turns of dropped DP but I will ignore that here).
500 A.D. = Turn 135= turn 176 for PA

So the the Specialist will have to make up 5 turns of GA culture production:
7GA * 14cpt * 5 turns= 490 culture

I finished on turn 304.
304-176= 128 turns to make up that culture.

490/128= 3.8 cpt to make up.

So if the specialist economy can produce even 1 more GA by the PA signing time, it should come out ahead.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will repeat those calc's for a 1000 A.D. DP:

1000 A.D. = turn 160= PA on turn 201 = 30 turns later

7GA * 14cpt * 30 turns= 2940 cpt

304-201=103 turns to make it up

2940/103= 28.5 cpt
So 2 more GA required.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However those calc's don't take into account the amount of GA the regular game will generate over that time. If a specialist economy could get the DP in 500 A.D. it could definitely be worthwhile. (At least compared to my game, I would be interested to see Jesusin use the numbers from his game here). I don't believe 1000 A.D. could do it though.

Now, the question becomes how many more Artists can be supported by 4 flood plains cottages versus 4 flood plains farms? Answer 2 more Artists. Assuming we also have a pair of grassland cottages. The answer is now 3 more Artists.

How many Artists can the combination CE/SE support? Can we assume 4 flood plains + two Corn providing 10 excess food? That would support 5 Artists.

Whatever the answer, the pure Specialist Economy has 2-3 more Artists.

GPP thresholds go up in the following sequence and running totals:
00100 00200 00300 00400 00500 00600 00700 00800 00900 01000 01200 01400 01600 01800 02000.
00100 00300 00600 01000 01500 02100 02800 03600 04500 05500 06700 08100 09700 10500 12500.

5 Artists generate 2*5*3 = 30 GPPpt and 7 Artists generate 2*7*3 = 42 GPPpt. The factor of 2 is due to the Philosophical trait.

For the combination CE/SE, let us target one Great Scientist and seven Great Artists. Without additional multipliers (like The Parthenon or National Epic), our total GPP for the combination CE/SE must be 3600. The number of turns to achieve this is 3600/30 = 120. In the same number of turns, the pure SE would generate 120 * 42 = 5040 which equates to 9.5 Great People or 1.5 more Great Artists.

Therefore, I would conclude that the pure Specialist Economy would generate about 1.5 more Great Artists in the same amount of time (120 turns) than the combination CE/SE.

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The remaining question is whether the pure Specialist Economy can generate enough research to be not too far behind the combination CE/SE when its player signs the PA for that 1.5 Great Artists to matter. In my opinion, the pure Specialist Economy can come close by building The Pyramids and switching to Representation very early. This will require Stone and a few mined hills or other hammer tiles.

Let's assume that the six CE/SE cottages (4 flood plains & 2 grasslands) provide an average of 3 Beakers (4 Beakers with the Financial trait), 6*4 = 24 and the 5 Artists provide 5*1=5, for a total of 29 Bpt. The pure SE has 4 farms 4*1=4 and 7 Artists provide 7*4= 28 or 32 Bpt, but only after switching to Representation. The Pyramids can be easily completed by turn 50 (2000 BC), well before Code of Laws is researched, so this doesn't seem to be that serious a problem, depending on how much Commerce the early cottages can provide plus all six cottages can't be worked in the very early years.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Sun Tzu Wu, any comments on my analysis? I think it would become much more insightful if jesusin were to compare it to his game and dates also.

His game is now available in the HOF:

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=9978

Anyway, here's the math on how many more GAs a specialist economy will have to produce. I'm going to use my PA date and GA amount for comparison, and assume a 500 A.D. DP for the specialist economy.

My PA was signed on turn 171 (was actually 173 because of 2 turns of dropped DP but I will ignore that here).
500 A.D. = Turn 135= turn 176 for PA

So the the Specialist will have to make up 5 turns of GA culture production:
7GA * 14cpt * 5 turns= 490 culture

I finished on turn 304.
304-176= 128 turns to make up that culture.

490/128= 3.8 cpt to make up.

So if the specialist economy can produce even 1 more GA by the PA signing time, it should come out ahead.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will repeat those calc's for a 1000 A.D. DP:

1000 A.D. = turn 160= PA on turn 201 = 30 turns later

7GA * 14cpt * 30 turns= 2940 cpt

304-201=103 turns to make it up

2940/103= 28.5 cpt
So 2 more GA required.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However those calc's don't take into account the amount of GA the regular game will generate over that time. If a specialist economy could get the DP in 500 A.D. it could definitely be worthwhile. (At least compared to my game, I would be interested to see Jesusin use the numbers from his game here). I don't believe 1000 A.D. could do it though.

My previous post simply used your analysis to go a few steps further (I hope). Here I simply comment on your analysis above:

Your analysis is flawless. (However, you might want to clearly state the DP year of your game in this post; it is implied, but not explicitly stated in the post itself.)

I think that the pure Specialist Economy can do much better than DP in 1000 AD, maybe even better than your original suggestion of 500 AD, but I'm guessing that 700 AD (15 more turns to DP) should be easy enough.

jesusin's DP date of 1 AD would be turn 115 and would add 15 more turns to all your calculations with respect to DP. However, I suspect that the pure SE strategy can be improved at least to DP at turn 135 (AD 500), so the turn difference would be 20. Thus the additional GA needed would be 1.3.

All our analysis seems to show that the pure SE strategy is a viable competitor to the CE/SE strategy that later morphs (cottages -> farms) into a pure SE.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[jesusin]

@Jesusin: You just outlined my strategy almost perfectly, except that I slot in Drama for the Globe Theatre after CS. Was your actual date for DP 1 AD? That's 350 years before mine. Although I suspect I was in a better position GA wise at that point.

I think it was 75BC or something similar. Yes, you had more GP, I had 4GA at the time and 1 more very soon.

Since cottages are important to your strategy, you are probably playing as Elizabeth (Philosophical & Financial in both Vanilla & Warlords).

When do convert the cottages to farms? After Biology like Shoot the Moon does? Or earlier?

Do you mine and work a Gems tile (or other commerce resource) very early in the game for an initial Research rate boost?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

Vanilla Eliz.
I reseached till I got the UN, then all farms.
Yes, my worker first two actions are usually farming a corn and mining a gems.

 

[jesusin]

On the CE/SE analysis:

The calculations you are trying to do are very difficult. I don't know what is better, I guess the best strategy is a pure CE till Liber+MilTra.

You are understating the value of a cottage. A riverside cottage in Liz's hands is already 3bpt the turn you build it. With PP it is one more. Then with Bureaucracy a 50% is added, that you will not add to the Pyramids-powered artists. Two cottaged FP are much much much better researchwise than two farms and an artist, no matter how you look at it.

With pure CE and CS slingshot you can get MilTra in 500BC. But then you polute your artists.

My recommendation (I can't demonstrate this is the best way) is pure CE till no more 2-food-cottages available, then work the mines if you are building Library or Oxford, hire artists if nothing special is being built. When MilTra is reached, continue researching towards Radio, but don't try to research it yourself but transform all your cottages into farms and hire as many specialist as you can.

Oh, and save all your GE till the PA is signed. You don't want them to build a WW in a city that won't have the Hermitage in it later on.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

On the CE/SE analysis:

Thanks for the wonderful ideas quoted below. They all seem to be quite sound. However, I do doubt that you use pure CE through Military Tradition. You may have all cottages worked through this point in time, but I suspect that you have also hired some specialists too, as you will see from my comments below ...

The calculations you are trying to do are very difficult. I don't know what is better, I guess the best strategy is a pure CE till Liber+MilTra.

Yes, the calculations are difficult, but that shouldn't stop us from trying.

However, the pure SE strategy trounces the pure CE strategy in one almost certainly critical area, number of Great Artists born by PA time. If you really aren't hiring Artists and presumably not building many Wonders, where does the pure CE strategy get its Great Artists? Are you really waiting until Military Tradition to generate Great Artists?

Are you hiring two Scientists after building the Library to generate one Great Scientist that will build an Academy? Are you making at least this exception to your pure CE strategy till Liberalism+Military Tradition? If so, technically you are switching to CE/SE earlier.

With both the pure CE and pure SE strategy, early farming/working of a food resource (like corn) is very important for quick early growth. However, cottaging flood plains and grasslands will slow early pure CE growth and reduced Population as compared to early pure SE that immediately farms these tiles.

You are understating the value of a cottage. A riverside cottage in Liz's hands is already 3bpt the turn you build it. With PP it is one more. Then with Bureaucracy a 50% is added, that you will not add to the Pyramids-powered artists. Two cottaged FP are much much much better researchwise than two farms and an artist, no matter how you look at it.

Sorry, I assumed that the cottages were being farmed over far earlier than you say you are doing it. In any case, I did allow for the cottage to grow from a Cottage at 3 Bpt to a Village at 5 Bpt (4 Bpt average, assuming the Financial trait). I assumed that all cottages would be farmed over well before Printing Press had an effect (presumably a short time after Lib/MT). Not accounting for the +50% Commerce effect of Bureaucracy was a critical omission on my part and it does tip research strongly in favor of pure CE (versus farms and early Representation/Artists). In retrospect, it seems that Bureaucracy in OCC is overpowered, because a simple Civic change should not increase both hammers and commerce Civilization wide by 50% each.

Pure CE is better at research than Representation/SE, but we also need Great Artists:

However, pure CE generates no Great Artists, so SE must be utilized sooner or later (preferably sooner). Since the Great Artists can't create a Great Work in a PA partner city, late Great Artists will at most shave one turn off the end date. Thus, only Great Artists born before or shortly after the PA signing date will have a significant effect.

With pure CE and CS slingshot you can get MilTra in 500BC. But then you pollute your artists.

Yes, this is a good use of The Oracle, but I'd prefer not to deal with the extra Great Prophets this may generate. Bulbing such an unwanted Great Prophet for Theology may be a good immediate use for such a GP. Bulbing Philosophy may be another.

My recommendation (I can't demonstrate this is the best way) is pure CE till no more 2-food-cottages available, then work the mines if you are building Library or Oxford, hire artists if nothing special is being built. When MilTra is reached, continue researching towards Radio, but don't try to research it yourself but transform all your cottages into farms and hire as many specialist as you can.

Now, you seem to be saying that you do hire Artists before Military Tradition when not building something important to finish fast. So, you seem to be switching citizens between hammer tiles and Artists before Military Tradition
depending on what is being built. Perhaps, you have a different definition of pure CE than I do?

Don't we want to research Communism (to sign the PA) before Radio (allow The Eiffel Tower)? Having your PA partner build The Eiffel Tower is a good alternative to building it in our only city.

Oh, and save all your GE till the PA is signed. You don't want them to build a WW in a city that won't have the Hermitage in it later on.

Yes, gifting early Great Engineer is a big risk, but you don't build The Pyramids and thus never face this potential problem, right?

------

It seems that even for OCC with PA and a Cultural goal, there isn't a simple formula for the earliest win date. Unlike Incan Conquest!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I think it was 75BC or something similar. Yes, you had more GP, I had 4GA at the time and 1 more very soon.

That is really great! You should get an award.

Roughly turn 112 for Liberalism and turn 113 for Military Tradition. Four Great Artists seems impossible at this point for a pure CE strategy. You must have hired Artists or built Wonders that generate Great Artist GPPs much earlier, right?

Vanilla Eliz.
I reseached till I got the UN, then all farms.
Yes, my worker first two actions are usually farming a corn and mining a gems.

After building the UN, you start converting cottages to farms? Did you really start farming over cottages that late? Please confirm.

Isn't building the UN a big risk? You can't be sure you will ever get the mandatory Free Speech resolution passed. The big risk is the highest population Civ will win the Diplomacy win resolution. Can your PA partner get a Diplomacy win this way? If so, you don't lose, but you don't get the desired Cultural win either.

Did you get the mandatory Free Speech resolution passed?

Do you recommend building the UN? Is the time from building the UN until the Cultural win short enough that a Diplomatic win by another Civ is unlikely?

After I researched Mas Media, I put the UN in my queue forever, so my PA partner could not build it. I did not want to build it either and risk a Diplomatic win (by any Civ, including my PA partner) before my PA partner and I could achieve a Cultural win.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Anyone try playing as Peter (Philosophical & Expansive)?

Since our OCC Civ can cover a relatively small area of the map, it probably has limited Happiness and Health resources compared to a Civ that can build Settlers. The low Happiness resource problem can be fixed by researching Drama and building a Theatre and the Globe Theatre. After Globe Theatre is built, the pure Happiness resources can be traded for Health resources. However, at some point, our Population may again be capped by Health bonuses, even after constructing every building with a Health bonus.

Even doing all the above, you may have noticed that your Population has often been limited by Health. This malady can be improved by selecting a Leader with the Expansive trait.

Expansive trait has slightly different effects in Vanilla and Warlords, so they are listed below separately.

Vanilla Expansive trait: Grants +3 Health/city Civilization wide. Double speed Granary and Harbor.

Warlords Expansive trait: Grants +2 Health/city Civilization wide. Double speed Granary and Harbor. Worker builds get a +50% bonus on Hammers per turn used (does not apply to excess food converted to hammers).

Let's focus primarily on the Health/city bonus ...

The Vanilla Expansive trait is especially worth considering due to its +3 Health/city bonus.

The Warlords Expansive trait is still worth considering due to its +2 Health/city bonus. (The Worker hammer build bonus is also nice, since probably at least two Workers will be built.)

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For this Gauntlet, the Philosophical trait is almost certainly required. The other trait can be one of the following:

Financial: This is a must if you make significant use of a Commerce Economy (CE), due to its +1 commerce bonus on tiles with 2 or more commerce. This trait has no double speed bonus for any building. Leaders with both the Philosophical and Financial traits are ...

Vanilla Elizabeth
Warlords Elizabeth

Expansive: This is a must if you always find your city's Health too limiting. The double speed bonus for the Granary (very important building) and Harbor is nice, but obviously (at most) only one each can be built. Leaders with the Philosophical and Expansive traits are ...

Vanilla Peter
Warlords Peter

Spiritual: This is a must if you like to switch Civics and Religions with the whims of your future PA partner or even other Civs, or whenever it suits your strategy. The double speed bonus for Temples may not have as much utility with just one city, but there is still one per Religion that can be built. Leaders with the Philosophical and Spiritual traits are ...

Vanilla Saladin
Warlords Gandhi

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If you can think of another trait useful to the Player Civ in this Gaunlet, please let us know which one it is and why.

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Please respond with any comments. Especially, the viability of the Expansive trait for this Gauntlet.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

That is really great! You should get an award.

Roughly turn 112 for Liberalism and turn 113 for Military Tradition. Four Great Artists seems impossible at this point for a pure CE strategy. You must have hired Artists or built Wonders that generate Great Artist GPPs much earlier, right?

One you get free with Music, the GP points from Parthenon should get you 1-2, that leaves you to generate 1-2. Isn't that hard when your philo.

Yes, gifting early Great Engineer is a big risk, but you don't build The Pyramids and thus never face this potential problem, right?

Hanging Gardens.

Now, you seem to be saying that you do hire Artists before Military Tradition when not building something important to finish fast. So, you seem to be switching citizens between hammer tiles and Artists before Military Tradition
depending on what is being built. Perhaps, you have a different definition of pure CE than I do?

My understanding of what Jesusin is saying is that he does a pure CE until there are no more cottages to be worked (actually I believe he stops at 2 short of max from what he is saying) and then does the mixed economy. That is very similar to what I did in my game. I left 6 forests (should have been 4) and once I reached that point turned new citizens into artists.

Yes, this is a good use of The Oracle, but I'd prefer not to deal with the extra Great Prophets this may generate. Bulbing such an unwanted Great Prophet for Theology may be a good immediate use for such a GP. Bulbing Philosophy may be another.

The strategy of turning new citizens into artists (see above) can actually prevent getting a GP. In my game, I built the Oracle but never got a GP because I turned some specialists into first scientists then artists (and Parthenon contributed artists also).

After building the UN, you start converting cottages to farms? Did you really start farming over cottages that late? Please confirm.

Isn't building the UN a big risk? You can't be sure you will ever get the mandatory Free Speech resolution passed. The big risk is the highest population Civ will win the Diplomacy win resolution. Can your PA partner get a Diplomacy win this way? If so, you don't lose, but you don't get the desired Cultural win either.

Did you get the mandatory Free Speech resolution passed?

Do you recommend building the UN? Is the time from building the UN until the Cultural win short enough that a Diplomatic win by another Civ is unlikely?

After I researched Mas Media, I put the UN in my queue forever, so my PA partner could not build it. I did not want to build it either and risk a Diplomatic win (by any Civ, including my PA partner) before my PA partner and I could achieve a Cultural win.

I can not speak for Jesusin, but I keep my cottages until researching Mass Media (Jesusin, were you mixing up the Wonder and the tech? EDIT: Actually, I just looked at Jesusin's game page in the HoF and it seems the UN was built considering the mass civic changes.)

Anyone try playing as Peter (Philosophical & Expansive)?

I think Peter (Vanilla preferably) could be effective for a SE. I don't see spiritual as very effective in this gauntlet because our anarchy only lasts 1 turn anyway.

With both the pure CE and pure SE strategy, early farming/working of a food resource (like corn) is very important for quick early growth. However, cottaging flood plains and grasslands will slow early pure CE growth and reduced Population as compared to early pure SE that immediately farms these tiles.

For my game, growth is never the question. I was growing as fast as my worker could put up improvements. With 2 corn and 2 cottaged floodplains I never was starved for growth.

In terms of PP, that is my first tech target after Lib. It is required for Scientific Method, and works well with a CE. I was lucky in my game to be able to trade all the way to machinery, which really shortened that.

One final consideration is that a CE will reach biology first (especially if they prioritize it after Lib, which I am starting to think we should). This could slightly make up for the less GAs. My new CE strategy after Lib will probably be go to PP, then gunpowder and chemistry, then biology (have to get scientific method first), then communism. Convert to farms and use the PA research to get to Mass Media.