G-Minor 32

[Sun Tzu Wu]

This is the latest revision (incorporating all feedback through Dec 29, 2007 23:55 UTC [aka GMT]) of ...

Combination CE/SE Strategy Outline for G-Minor 32 (Cultural OCC with PA + specific level, size, map and speed restrictions [Noble, Small, Ice_Age, Normal]):

There is a clear consensus that Financial is the favored secondary trait for the Player Civ. The primary combination CE/SE strategy utilizing the Financial trait, credited primarily to jesusin, is:

Abbreviations: r=Research focused; c=Culture focused; o=Optional

0) Player should be Elizabeth (either Vanilla or Warlords) for the critical Philosophical trait (SE part) and Financial trait (CE part). The starting position should contain as many "cottage" flood plains (4 or more) and food resources (2 or more) as possible, some "hammer" hills (2-6), some (0-6) "cottage" flat grasslands and a few early "mine/camp" commerce tiles (0-2).

1) Build a Worker that starts with improving a Food Resource and a Commerce (Gems, Fur, etc.) Resource.

2) Beeline Pottery, build/work cottages on all non-Resource tiles with 2+ food.

3r) Beeline Writing, build a Library and work two Scientists, generate a Great Scientist that creates an Academy.
3c) Build the Parthenon for its +50% GPP bonus to build Great Artists faster. Chopping is great to rush this wonder and those listed in 4c, but may want to leave 2 or 4 forests in fat cross for health bonus; most forests chopped will be inside borders and outside fat cross; note that totally (no roads) unimproved tiles may spawn new forests.
3o) Build Monastery of each Religion for later Missionary spamming without OR.

4r) Beeline Code of Laws & Civil Service and adopt Caste System & Bureaucracy. When all cottage tiles and improved, non-hammer Resource tiles are worked, the remaining population works hammer tiles when building something important and works as Artists otherwise.
4c) Build Wonders with Great Artist and Great Engineer GPPs; GAs and GEs are saved until the PA is signed.
4o) Use The Oracle to "slingshot" Civil Service or Education. Note that The Oracle will pollute the Great Artist/Great Engineer gene pool with a source of Great Prophet GPPs that can't be turned off. Code of Laws and Mathematics (Warlords only) must be completed for Civil Service to be available through The Oracle. Paper must be completed for Education to be available through The Oracle. Since Education is twice as many Beakers as Civil Service, allows University and especially Oxford University, early Education (around 1000 BC) may be worth the risk of getting a few unwanted Great Prophets.

5r) Beeline Philosophy & adopt Pacifism.
5c) May use Organized Religion to help build/finish a critically important Wonder (such as The Parthenon) faster, otherwise Pacifism must be used exclusively, since the +100% GPP bonus is too great to not utilize.
5o) Spam your Religion across the Map via Missionaries.

6r) Beeline Liberalism such that Military Tradition can be selected as the free Technology and sign a Defensive Pact with your future (planned) PA Partner.
6c) Give or trade Technologies that unlock Wonders for your future (planned) PA Partner so he has a head start in building them. Ideally, you and your PA Partner will build all the World Wonders. Get Banking to use Mercantilism to add an Artist. Get Drama to build Theatre and Globe Theatre which allows happiness resources to be traded for health resources and unrestricted whipping.
6o) Spam all your Religions to all your future (planned) PA Partner's cities via Missionaries, so he can build the corresponding Temples in each and build the corresponding generic Cathedrals (meaning any of the +50% Religious building) , hopefully in your future PA Partner's two most Culturally promising cities (one of which has/will have The Hermitage).

7r) Research Communism within 40 turns after signing DP and sign the PA.
7c) Attempt to bribe your future PA Partner into using Free Speech just prior to signing the PA. Start building your Great Artist farm, but continue working all cottages.

8r) Your PA Partner will take over most of the Research. May want to flip own switch from Research to Culture to delay the problem described in step 11r. Start farming over (all) cottages to support more Artists. Each pair of farmed over cottages will support one more Artist. Be sure that net Food (check Health) will be positive or at least stable (0) after all Artists are added.
8c) Determine the best two PA Partner Culture (rate) cities (carefully consider Culture multipliers - city with Hermitage should usually be included) and settle GAs in each such that they will go Legendary at about the same time. Do 9c.
8o) If you (will) have enough excess Food/extra Health and are farming over at least 6 cottages, you have the viable option of beelining Chemistry (obsoleting Parthenon) & Biology and adding 3+ more Artists (The farms will soon gain +1 Food from Biology). Do this if you don't have The Parthenon. Otherwise, recalculate GPP without the +50% bonus plus the expected number of additional Artists and if your calculated GPP is significantly greater than the current GPP, this optional step is reasonable, but note that due to the loss of the Parthenon effect, your GPP will dip below current levels for a few turns until your capital grows enough to support the new Artists.

9r) Beeline Radio.
9c) Check your PA Partner's two Culture cities and use a GE to rush any useful Wonders or Cathedrals started in them recently.

10r No UN) Either research Mass Media and keep UN permanently in your build quene, but never built it, or avoid Mass Media entirely.
10r UN) Research Mass Media and build the UN. Select and pass Free Speech resolution. Before this, try to increase your PA Partners population and your Diplomatic score with all other AIs, so you can avoid losing via Diplomatic win.
10c) Do 9c.

11r) No remaining Technology is useful for a Cultural win. In fact, completion of these remaining Technologies only allows your PA Partner to waste hammers on _more_ non-Culture generating buildings and space ship parts. Avoid Rocketry as much as possible, since this Technology is required for building the key to all space ship parts, The Apollo Project. Since you can't tell your PA partner to flip the switch from Research to Culture, just tell your PA Partner to research any available Technology until there is only one turn left and tell him to switch to the next. When forced to complete a Technology, pick the least damaging one or the one that opens up the group of Technologies that can be researched the longest number of turns before again being forced to complete the research of one of them. Repeat until the win or all Technologies are completed. If the projected win date is still far away or > 2049 AD, you may want to consider optional step 11o instead.
11c) Keep improving Great Artist farm, but as the win date approaches, the next Great Artist may not be born early enough to make a significant difference (can't shave off even a single turn from the projected win date).
11o) Selectively beeline Medicine, Refrigeration, Ecology, Genetics for Health boosting building and Civics ( Environmentalism). Build Hospital, and Supermarket and switch to Environmentalism ASAP to further increase Population so more Artists can be hired. If close to Fusion, beeline Fusion for the free Great Engineer. The downside to implementing this step is your PA Partner will likely build other new buildings.

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Please provide suggestions for improving the above strategy outline - either improved format, or suggested additions or corrections.

List of Contributers:

bshumbera
jesusin
Shoot the Moon
Sun Tzu Wu

If you provided an idea to the G-Minor 32 (this) thread that is included in the above outline, but you weren't credited, please let me know so I can add you to the list of contributors.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I tried another pure SE with high sea level and 7 opponents. Currently, paused at turn 140 ...

I'm first to Liberalism on turn 140 (600 AD) and got free Military Tradition and signed a DP. I used an Education slingshot via The Oracle and no Great Prophets, so far. My Great Person percentages right now are 12% each Great Engineer, Great Scientist, and Great Prophet and 62% Great Artist. Other Wonders built include The Pyramids (1000 BC; no stone), The Parthenon, and National Epic. Hermitage is about half complete.

My population is only 9 due to only 1-2 health resources available from the AIs, so I have only 3 Artists, but I managed to build an Academy (GS), University and Oxford University and saved a GE and 5 GAs. My growth is stable at -1 Health; I could build an Aqueduct to improve Health a bit.

I'm running Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Pacifism.

However, my list of Technologies to get to Communism seems very long in turns:
Tu Technology
== ========
04 Machinery
10 Printing Press
03 Compass
05 Optics
14 Astronomy
17 Scientific Method
19 Communism
== =========
72 Total turns

On my first pure SE attempt, I was able to go from Liberalism/Military Tradition/DP in a little over 40 turns, but I "recall" having at least twice the population and twice the Artists. That attempt had only 4 opponents and more trade-able Health resources.

The idea behind using a high sea level and 7 opponents was to contain the PA Partner in a relatively small area that ideally would support only two large cities and a few smaller ones. This seems to have worked (so far) , but as a result of splitting Health resources among 7 opponents instead of 4, the AIs seem to have only 1-2 Health resources for trade.

Any opinions on the best number of opponents and sea level setting?

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bshumbera]

Tu Technology
== ========
04 Machinery
10 Printing Press
03 Compass
05 Optics
14 Astronomy
17 Scientific Method
19 Communism
== =========
72 Total turns

You can delay Printing Press and hope the AI will research it for you (and be willing to trade). You don't need it so early since you don't have cottages. Other than that, build the observatory the moment Astro comes in and that will speed up the others somewhat.

Any opinions on the best number of opponents and sea level setting?

I always went with 4 AI and low sea level. The main reason is that I found (as mentioned earlier) that the AI was more likely to remain in Free Speech if they were large enough, as determined by some unseen calculation, that it would be better for them than Beuro. It was always my hope that these settings would maximize AI growth. Also, I often found that my DP partner was willing to trade me techs like Metal Casting, Compass, Optics, and Machinery, thus saving me some research time to the PA.

 

[jesusin]

Your 40 years ahead of second place.

Youuu meeean RL, son?

Tu Technology
== ========
04 Machinery
10 Printing Press
03 Compass
05 Optics
14 Astronomy
17 Scientific Method
19 Communism
== =========
72 Total turns

How did you get this numbers? If it was hoovering your mouse over the F6 screen, you were not forgetting the 20% discount you get from any pre-requisite, were you? The F6 screen does forget it.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

I have a strong suspision that I just fell out of second place. That game seems to be going very well Sun Tzu Wu. You should be able to get that research done, espcially considering the 20% bonus you'll get. Who is your PA partner going to be?

In terms of the ideal number of opponents, I think that 4 and low seas would be best. I was able to trade for a massive number of techs that way (see my game report a couple of pages ago). That was probably a key difference in my game.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

My suspision is that getting biology will almost always outweigh losing the Parthenon. Going from a 250% bonus to a 200% bonus isn't as major as getting more (in my games almost 2 times more) artists at 200% bonus.

I agree with Shoot the Moon (on the above concerning Chemistry -> Biology):

I also "recall" (eventually) getting twice as many Artists with Biology than without in my first game, where I was always able to build another Health bonus building or adopt Environmentalism (+6 Health) just in time or within about 5-10 turns of needin it. Biology is probably more often a better idea to get a much better GPP rate than not using it. The only reason not to research Chemistry and Biology is being really short on Health and no prospects for gaining more Health (in the short term).

I think this justifies a rewrite of the strategy outline to make it clear that Biology should be skipped only if Health will prevent sufficient Population growth and additional Artists, or if the projected win date is somewhat close (50 turns or so?) that a net gain in GPPs will not even help shorten the game - remember that some time (after Biology) will be needed to make up the lost of The Parthenon (when Chemistry is completed).

I like the stated tech goals after MM, with a few suggestions. We will want the Statue of Liberty if possible for the free specialist (for our PA partner also) so Democracy should be a goal. I didn't get fusion in my game, which was an error. I went for the techs you mentioned, then to Future Tech for the further health benefits. All of that was on PA partner research.

I agree that Democracy and The Statue of Liberty should definitely be a goal, since the free Artist can really help our Great Artist farm. Researching Democracy right after Mass Media sounds very good. However, maybe Democracy between Radio and Mass Media would help with getting The Eiffel Tower built before our PA Partner starts building Towers.

I'll add this the strategy guideline later.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

I have found democracy to also be a tech that the AIs prioritize, so if you are willing to wait a little bit longer it is possible to trade for it. Although if you do wait for that, you would probably have to build the Statue of Liberty yourself instead of risking it with your PA partner.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Tu Technology
== ========
04 Machinery
10 Printing Press
03 Compass
05 Optics
14 Astronomy
17 Scientific Method
19 Communism
== =========
72 Total turns

How did you get this numbers? If it was hoovering your mouse over the F6 screen, you were not forgetting the 20% discount you get from any pre-requisite, were you? The F6 screen does forget it.

I used the F6 (Research) screen, but I clicked on Communism and simply looked at the seven highlighted Technologies and each number in parentheses. I did _not_ manually factor in any discount that might apply as you suggested.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

You can delay Printing Press and hope the AI will research it for you (and be willing to trade). You don't need it so early since you don't have cottages. Other than that, build the observatory the moment Astro comes in and that will speed up the others somewhat.

Thanks for these tips.

I always went with 4 AI and low sea level. The main reason is that I found (as mentioned earlier) that the AI was more likely to remain in Free Speech if they were large enough, as determined by some unseen calculation, that it would be better for them than Beuro. It was always my hope that these settings would maximize AI growth. Also, I often found that my DP partner was willing to trade me techs like Metal Casting, Compass, Optics, and Machinery, thus saving me some research time to the PA.

As you can probably tell (from post #142), I'm convinced that 4 Opponents is better than 7 simply because they will each have a greater share of Health resources and probably even more duplicate Health resources they can trade with us.

Obviously, anything that convinces our PA Partner to use Free Speech is worth almost any sacrifice in return. If all it takes is a low sea level, that is a bargain many times over.

Does anyone know whether a low sea level causes more resources to be placed on the map or are the same number of resources just spread out over the larger land mass?

It seems that 4 Opponents and low sea level is the way to go for possibly more than one reason.

I have a strong suspision that I just fell out of second place. That game seems to be going very well Sun Tzu Wu. You should be able to get that research done, espcially considering the 20% bonus you'll get. Who is your PA partner going to be?

I have to agree that my current game is far better than my first (no major blunders so far - unlike my first game; 140 AD 600 vs. 159 AD 980 DP). However, my current game is far from finished and I think I may have trouble researching to Communism in 40 turns plus many of the AIs are aggressive and there are four religious groups. (I could have easily bribed my future PA Partner into a shared war, but I wanted to avoid declaring war so my pure SE effort could be more directly compared to the very likely superior combination CE/SE strategy where the DP is almost always unlocked via Military Tradition.)
If I do get involved in a war, at least I won't have any cottages for the enemy to pillage. The cottage is the major war time vulnerability that CE has and pure SE doesn't.

In terms of the ideal number of opponents, I think that 4 and low seas would be best. I was able to trade for a massive number of techs that way (see my game report a couple of pages ago). That was probably a key difference in my game.

So another reason to go with 4 Opponents and a low sea level! Thanks.

I have found democracy to also be a tech that the AIs prioritize, so if you are willing to wait a little bit longer it is possible to trade for it. Although if you do wait for that, you would probably have to build the Statue of Liberty yourself instead of risking it with your PA partner.

First trade with the other AIs the "beeline through Nationalism" and wait for one of them to research and offer Democracy for trade, trade for it and when your PA Partner starts to build it, finish it with a Great Engineer!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Who is your PA partner going to be?

Sorry, I forgot to answer this question. The same PA Partner that you believe is the best, Ramesses II.

So far, Ramesses II has built Stonehenge, Chichen Itza and The Sistine Chapel. I was hoping for more, but not too bad at this relatively early stage.

Another thing that troubles me is the current Score. Ramesses II is 1253, another AI is 1025 and I'm at 986. If a prospective PA Partner is first in Power, he will refuse a PA offer, saying "We're doing fine on our own." Do I also have to worry about Score?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Another thing that troubles me is the current Score. Ramesses II is 1253, another AI is 1025 and I'm at 986. If a prospective PA Partner is first in Power, he will refuse a PA offer, saying "We're doing fine on our own." Do I also have to worry about Score?

I just checked WastinTime's "Permanent Alliance Guide":

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3853417

The only restrictions listed there concern Power. Neither you nor your prospect PA Partner can be at the top of the Power Graph.

Neither Ramesses II or I are any where near the top, so clear sailing on this potential issue.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bshumbera]

It's also worth mentioning that any monasteries of religions that spread to your city should be prioritized (whipped) as soon as possible since they give a 10% boost to research until Scientific Method.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

It's also worth mentioning that any monasteries of religions that spread to your city should be prioritized (whipped) as soon as possible since they give a 10% boost to research until Scientific Method.

Thanks, I almost forgot that.

It's also important when using (or planning to use) Pacifism, that you build Monasteries of all Religions you plan to spam to your PA Partner prior to completing Scientific Method. Otherwise you will have to switch from Pacifism to Organized Religion to build Missionaries whose Monastery you lack. (I made this particular mistake in my first game of this gauntlet.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Just before signing the PA, I want my future PA Partner to switch to Free Speech, so he will be running Free Speech at least 5 turns after the PA is signed.

It seems that there is no way to bribe another Civ to use a Civic that you are not using yourself. So, I switched to Free Speech one turn before completing Communism, but the option for my future PA Partner to switch to Free Speech didn't appear in the diplomacy/trading window. Nor did it appear a turn later when I completed Communism.

Can someone please tell us what conditions must be met before an Adopt Civic item will appear in the diplomacy/trading window? Plus how to achieve them? Or just a link to reference that explains it all.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Your PA partner hasn't had a revolution in the last 5 turns have they? They can't revolt again for 5 turns. Also, make sure you've gifted your PA partner Liberalism so they have the option of Free Speech. Other than that, I don't know what more it will take.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Your PA partner hasn't had a revolution in the last 5 turns have they? They can't revolt again for 5 turns. Also, make sure you've gifted your PA partner Liberalism so they have the option of Free Speech. Other than that, I don't know what more it will take.

Thanks, Shoot the Moon!

My future PA Partner just Adopted Representation (turn 194 AD 1340) a few turns before I completed Communism (turn 197 AD 1370). I didn't think it could be that simple.

My big question now is do I wait two turns till my future PA Partner can change civics and bride him into Free Speech or should go for the PA right now (turn 197 AD 1370)? (In my first game, my future PA Partner changed three Civics the turn before I completed Communism as I recall. Bad timing again?)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thanks, Shoot the Moon!

My future PA Partner just Adopted Representation (turn 194 AD 1340) a few turns before I completed Communism (turn 197 AD 1370). I didn't think it could be that simple.

My big question now is do I wait two turns till my future PA Partner can change civics and bride him into Free Speech or should go for the PA right now (turn 197 AD 1370)? (In my first game, my future PA Partner changed three Civics the turn before I completed Communism as I recall. Bad timing again?)

I delayed my PA two turns so my future PA Partner could change Civics. Now Free Speech is under the "Adopt" heading, but it's in Red text! Mousing over Free Speech we find ...

That would go against everything we stand for!

My future PA Partner says the same thing above Civics changes to (redded out) Caste System and Pacifism.

I looked for this phrase in the forums, but there's only 9 of them. I'm in the process of checking each one out. I'll report later on my progress or lack there of.

Has anyone encountered this before and found a way around it (other than declaring war and demanding a Civics change for Peace - I don't want to declare war on my future ... prospective ... enemy ... PA Partner -- I doubt one could declare war on a Civ even with 18 Diplomacy points, make peace and suddenly become PA Partners )

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

... Now Free Speech is under the "Adopt" heading, but it's in Red text! Mousing over Free Speech we find ...

That would go against everything we stand for!

...

I looked for this phrase in the forums, but there's only 9 of them. I'm in the process of checking each one out. I'll report later on my progress or lack there of.

The best I could find on this topic is (not much help):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=218913

A related Diplomacy guide (didn't even mention the problem), but has great tips for getting a high diplomatic score with your prospective PA partner in preparation for both signing a Defensive Pact and later signing a Permanent Alliance:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/diplo_victory_notes.php

I'm already at +18 Diplomatic points with Ramesses II, so I don't think waiting will change his mind about Free Speech. Either I need the UN to force Free Speech on Ramesses II or I need a new PA Partner who is willing to be bribed to run Free Speech and stay there.

With one Great Prophet, three Great Engineers, and eight Great Artists in waiting, I'm ready to sign the PA on turn 199 (AD 1390), finally!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bshumbera]

I've encountered that problem before and have not found a work-around, unfortunately. Your best bet now sounds like to beeline MM and rush the UN, just be sure you'll win the vote (i.e. make sure you've got high diplomatic relations elsewhere).

 

[Shoot the Moon]

I would settle for no free speech until UN. You will still easily take second place (my game had no free speech either). I do think that that makes Jesusin's date unobtainable, but I could be wrong.