G-Minor 32

Aaaargh - I had a wonderful game. London was already legendary. Washington and NY both run to legendary status with 550/turn. The 1st UN election was "Free Speech" - and success:). So I just pressed return to get the victory. Then a Diplomatic Vote comes up - I abstained (FYI: UN was built by Roos). And then the funny turn comes in. Huanca declared war on me and during my thinking how I can get the others into this war too a popup comes in: "Hannibal wins a diplomatic victory" :crazyeye: So the same turn Huanca thinks he should wipe me out, Hannibal gots enough votes.

No more tries with this gauntlet. It is a really frustrating one. Playing for hours and no chance to influence anything at the end :mad:
 
(FYI: UN was built by Roos).

As a hint to everyone (and you if you decide to try again), put the U.N. in your build queue to prevent your PA partner from building it. Unless you want to risk it for free speech, but I don't think the risk is worth it.
 
As a hint to everyone (and you if you decide to try again), put the U.N. in your build queue to prevent your PA partner from building it. Unless you want to risk it for free speech, but I don't think the risk is worth it.

Thanks for the tip, I now go for the BtS-8 gauntlet and perhaps come back to this one later.
 
does anyone know how to make ai PA partner adopt free speech? So far the only way is ask them to adopt before PA is signed.
 
does anyone know how to make ai PA partner adopt free speech? So far the only way is ask them to adopt before PA is signed.
either this way or trying a UN-resolution - but for the disadvantages there look my posts above ;)
 
Well, just submitted a 1868 game (currently second place). My capitol was pretty good, 2 corn, 2 floodplains (which give 0 health penalty:D ), riverside gems. I also had a good amount of grassland. I was on a continent with Mansa and Ramsesses (ideal in my opinion). Both had either gems or gold in BFC, so tech pace was fast. I was able to trade for alot (Metal Casting, Machinery, Optics, Feudalism, Guilds, Theocracy, Replaceable Parts, Steam Power, Railroad, most of the worker techs and Lit I believe to name the important ones.)

1520 B.C. Oracle gives C.S.
1280 B.C. Academy
800 B.C. Took a risk. One of my target legendary cities of Ramsesses was severely pressed by my culture (the proximity came back to haunt me, as his city stole one of my farms near the end). I gifted him a GA. He bombed it. :woohoo:
350 A.D. DP (mil. trad. from lib.)
1130 A.D. PA (two turns of dropped DP). His capitol had 111 cpt when I signed BEFORE:eek: I settled my GAs. I had 6 GA and 1 GE ready when I signed.
1200 A.D. His capitol was at 171 cpt, his second at 178. This came back to haunt me, as his second city finished 10-15 turns before his capitol.

21 GP overall. 4 GS:( (The first one I wanted, the last three I didn't) 15GA (including Music. 14 settled, 1 Ramsesses bombed) 1 GE 1 GM (economics)
 
And how can you get 4GS? You didn't build the GLIB, did you?:rolleyes:

I was able to trade for alot (Metal Casting, Machinery, Optics, Feudalism, Guilds, Theocracy, Replaceable Parts, Steam Power, Railroad, most of the worker techs and Lit I believe to name the important ones.).)
Oh, I envy you.
I gifted him a GA. He bombed it. :woohoo:)
Oh, how much I envy you!
His capitol had 111 cpt when I signed BEFORE:eek: I settled my GAs. )
Oh, I envy you sooooo much!
1200 A.D. His capitol was at 171 cpt, his second at 178. This came back to haunt me, as his second city finished 10-15 turns before his capitol.
In my game his second city had much better multipliers, so I settled my 5 available GA there. Then slowly settled GA in the capital, till I added 7 of them. The last one settled in the capital wasn't worth a 100th of the ones added in the other city; too few turns left.

I think the date of MilTra is one of the key parameters for a good result.
 
How can you build the Oracle and not get a single GP?

My first GP was a GS on purpose (I got unlucky on two coming from Oxford, no GLib (another one came from physics). I saved 6 forests in my capitol for health (a mistake, should only have saved 4). So after my first GP, there was a point where I ran out of useful tiles to work. So I turned the citizens into artists. That saved me from a GP.

I admit I got lucky with the ability of my PA partner, however I did predict way back when that Ramsesses would be the best.:p

I would have tried gifting GAs more, but after the first, the ability to gift one was blacked out. Anyone know why?

I agree that the date of MilTrad is the most important with one caveat. You have to be in a good position culturally when you get it (can't skip Parthenon or have popped no GA etc.)

I think that there were more cultural multipliers in the second city because it was fighting (and mostly losing) a cultural war with my capitol.

Now that I have submitted a strong standard date, I am going to try a radically different strategy next time. I will try to find a stone, gems, high food start (wishful, I know). I will build the pyramids and run an artist specialist economy from the get go. The gems should provide enough early research capacity to get it up and running. I am also going to risk the U.N. to try for free speech.
 
I think I'll try this one. I understand philo is the way to go, but will we be afford to run pacifism, as we should be founding confu (and/or later ones), but our PA target most likely has a religion of his own?
 
I think I'll try this one. I understand philo is the way to go, but will we be afford to run pacifism, as we should be founding confu (and/or later ones), but our PA target most likely has a religion of his own?

as long as you don't pick somebody with huge heathen modifiers as your partner you should be able to hold the DP even if you are a different religion. Then if you need more points for the PA you can convert to their religion (or NSR/FR) when you're ready and convert back later.

I think the warlords AIs are more likely to actually bomb the GAs.

the vanilla AI will bomb a city if it's culture pressed. never seen it for any other reason, so if warlords will bomb an unpressed city it's probably the better choice for those with the option.
 
In my first submission (2012), I noticed my partner's workers switching towns to farms, and then those same farms back to cottages within a couple of turns - (in one of the eventual legendary cities). Very frustrating. Does the AI always do this?

In my second submission (1988?), I had a stack of unsettled GAs fortified in my DP partner's capital. Somewhere along the way, she canceled the DP (but we still had OB). I eventually got her to re-sign the DP and PA, but when I went looking for my GAs, they were in someone else's land...does anyone know if there's a bug/problem/intentional design that causes your units to be removed from within cultural borders when a DP is canceled (or when a PA is signed)?

I think I could improve on my time quite significantly (maybe even hit early 1900's or late 1800's?) - I learned a lot about DP and PA that I didn't know - probably cost me 50+ turns...and another 4-5 turns for the GA getting booted (they got booted across a small sea).

Good G-Minor!
 
DaddyMac,

When you sign PA it automatically stops DP and Open Borders. As a result any troops you had on your buddy's territory are kicked out, but you can enter back immediately.
It is somewhat unfortunate that the code works this way, but normally it is not a big problem.
 
I will try to find a stone, gems, high food start (wishful, I know). I will build the pyramids and run an artist specialist economy from the get go. The gems should provide enough early research capacity to get it up and running. I am also going to risk the U.N. to try for free speech.

I just finished my first game of this Gauntlet with a stone, a gems, 5 flood plains, bananas and corn in the fat cross. (I avoided the U.N. like the plague though.)

I made a few huge mistakes and numerous small, thus the rather average win date of 1939 AD. This is my prototype blue print for a OCC, PA Cultural win. It may need to be modified slightly for Deity level -- CS sling shot may not be possible for example, but since your PA partner is an AI and will do all the heavy lifting once the PA signed, anything beyond that point shouldn't be affected much by level. It may work best at Noble though Immortal, but the test run below matching this gauntlet was played at Noble level.

Here is your opportunity to learn from my mistakes (at least the ones I remember and tell you about):

Caution: Not every item below contains a mistake. Some of the steps below were actually executed flawlessly, though I can't think of any step right now that couldn't be improved. :)

1) Researched all the religious technologies to found all seven religions which is my first big mistake, but I didn't want my PA partner to found his own religion and refuse a Defensive Pact.

2) Completed The Pyramids in 1760 BC and switched to Representation.

3) Timed The Oracle to complete on the same turn as Code of Laws (1280 BC), and had Mathematics researched, so I was able to get Civil Service. By 1000 BC, Delhi's Culture was already 1004.

4) In 825 BC, I used the first Great Prophet to create The Church of the Nativity. This was a huge mistake that resulted in 5 Great Prophets instead of the perhaps two that The Oracle alone would have generated. I was probably a little unlucky in getting so many Great Prophets, since the percentage chance was less than 20% very early and went quickly below 10% and even below 5% after PA.

5) Built the Parthenon in 800 BC.

6) Completed the Sistine Chapel in 125 BC via a Great Engineer.

7) Used the last Great Engineer to build Globe Theatre, because I wanted maximum population and thus a high number of Artists ASAP. Traded the pure happiness resources for health resources and happiness resources with a building related health bonus.

8) Researching Divine Right (520 AD) was a pointless diversion. I recommend that it be ignored, since religion is not quite so important by the time an AI would get DR. Actually, I was researching it for my future PA partner and he did complete one of the two world wonders it allows. In retrospect, it may have been OK to research Divine Right after Liberalism.

9) Took the scenic route to Liberalism via Music, and others, so didn't arrive there until 980 AD, grabbed Military Tradition and made a DP with Roosevelt. I traded almost exclusively with Roosevelt so he got all World Wonder related Technologies far earlier than the other AIs; doing so got me about 12 Diplomatic points (at DP time). So with his Industrious trait, he should have built numerous world wonders, but he didn't seem to build them very fast.

10) In 1230 AD, I was able to bribe Roosevelt to use Free Speech for 540G. He stayed in Free Speech until 1400 AD when he switched to Bureaucracy, Mercantilism, and Free Religion.

11) In 1280 AD, Scientific Method was completed, but Delhi has monasteries for only two of the seven religions. This huge mistake costs many GPPs while switched from Pacifism to Organized Religion to build the Missionaries that are missing their Monastery.

12) In 1410 AD (Communism), I impulsively entered into a Permanent Alliance with Roosevelt without even considering an attempt to get him back to Free Speech. After a PA, it appears that there is no direct way cause your PA partner to change Civics. He has three "high culture" cities with about 40 Cpt. The capital has about 4000 Culture and 4 hammers (6 with B.) and the other two cities have about 2000 Culture each and about 25 and 15 B. hammers respectively. None of the cities have Culture multipliers yet.

13) Huge mistake #2 (actually more like #10): I pick the capital with 6 hammers, because its 2000 Culture ahead plus has 18 population and the city with 15 hammers, because it has 15 population, whereas the third city with 25 hammers has only 9 population. I should have taken the two high hammer cities, since we want our PA partner to build (late) Culture world wonders and Culture multipliers fast. At the end of this game, the city I didn't pick had nearly 300 Cpt without my help; I don't want to think about the Culture rate it could have had with the 10 GAs I settled in the capital instead.

14) Still at PA time, 3 GAs, 1 GP and 1 GS are settled in the capital and 4 GAs are settled in the 15 B. hammer city. The GP (2H) and GS (1H) help make the capital a 7 (10 with B.) hammer city. The Culture rate in these two cities go up to nearly 80 and 100 Cpt respectively.

15) In 1515 AD, Roosevelt and I complete Biology and suddenly Delhi can support many more people and Artists. This permitted going from about 10 Artists to maybe 15 Artists as the population increased, but health went down to -2 to -4 eventually.

16) In the following years, Roosevelt builds various world wonders and Culture multipliers spread primarily over his three highest hammer cities, not including his capital. Actually, he does build a few in his capital, but not enough. He also builds many Temples for the various religions I provided for him.

17) Radio is completed in 1740 AD. In 1750 AD, Roosevelt starts building The Eiffel Tower in his capital, but it will take nearly 40 turns to finish (even with Iron).

18) Mass Media is completed in 1760 AD. The United Nations goes into my build queue and stays there, so Roosevelt can't build it.

19) Roosevelt (at my direction) and I build every Technology that another Civ has that we don't. I don't know whether a PA partner can trade Technologies or only the human side of the PA, but I don't want to allow my PA partner the chance to do any Technology trades. Last thing I want is my PA partner to trade away Mass Media to an AI who might build the U.N. Also, I want to slow down all the AIs from completing the Space Ship, so no Technology trades from this point in time forward (actually may have been PA time forward), except old Technologies to Civs way behind in Tech.

20) Oops, there are still a few health related Technologies to be researched that will allow Delhi to grow even bigger and support even more Artists.
a) Completed Medicine in 1695 AD, switched to Environmentalism and started Hospital.
b) Completed Refrigeration in 1860 AD and start building a Supermarket.
c) Completed Genetics to get the +3 Health bonus.
d) Completed Ecology in 1912 AD and start a Recycling Center.

21) One of Roosevelt's cities goes Legendary in 1931 AD.

22) Roosevelt's capital goes Legendary in 1939 AD (8 turns later). Delhi's culture without hardly trying was over 130K at this point.

23) Near the end, Roosevelt hired 4 Artists in his capital increasing the Cpt just a little bit more than needed to win a turn earlier, but he fired 3 Artists two turns too soon and as a result it took three more turns to win. Don't rush to give credit to the AI for a Culture win; it doesn't seem to run Free Speech much (even Washington whose favorite civic is FS); it doesn't put commerce into Culture (slider) ever; it seems to blindly build a few wonders, and Culture multipliers in its high hammer cities and temples in all but the very low hammer cities. It obviously doesn't prioritize Technologies important for a Cultural win.

At the end, Delhi was supporting 17+ Artists.
GP tally was:

GE 2
GM 0
GS 2
GA 15
GP 5
======
Total 24

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Nice analysis Sun Tzu Wu. Interestingly, it has persuaded me NOT to try the strategy I was going to. Even running a specialist economy, you only got 3 more GP than I (and later). I'm not sure of the benefit of that.

A couple of things about your game:

1) Did you ever build an academy? That and CS slingshot are my first priority.

2) What leader did you play? Vanilla or Warlords?

3) I am extremely jealous of that starting location (which is saying a lot, as I had a great one myself).

4) If you get a GP, may I recommend either bulbing theology with it or settling it?

5) I wouldn't exactly consider Music the scenic route, as you need Music to be able to take Mil. Trad.

6) I usually save my GE for my PA partner, as I know they need help going legendary more than I do. I'd be interested to hear an argument against that.
 
Very interesting, Sun Tzu Wu and Shoot the Moon.

I'd say that the only two purposes of our capital is to get to MilTra asap and to farm as many GA as possible and asap. With this idea in mind I'd say that Pyramids and Oracle hasn't paid off in the analysed game, since MilTra was got around 1000AD, instead of around 1AD. In addition they both will polute the GPpool.
 
Nice analysis Sun Tzu Wu. Interestingly, it has persuaded me NOT to try the strategy I was going to. Even running a specialist economy, you only got 3 more GP than I (and later). I'm not sure of the benefit of that.

My game was far from ideal with regard to building large numbers of Great People, since I foolishly forgot to build the Monasteries for most of the religions I wanted to spread to my PA partner before researching Scientific Method. Thus I had to drop Pacifism to run Organized Religion for a large range of turns when spreading those religions.

Also, early on, I ran Organized Religion first to build Missionaries without Monasteries and later to build buildings and wonders faster. I did this even after completing Philosophy in 350 BC, not switching to Pacifism until 680 AD when Education was finally completed.

In 1925, I determined that the earliest I could pop my final GA using reasonable starvation was one turn before my projected Cultural win, so I switched to Organized Religion to build some things faster, even though it could not improve the win date. Thus, I could have had a 25th Great Person, but on the next to the last turn, even using my Airport could not put it into useful action (such as shaving off a turn).

I switched between Organized Religion and Pacifism as follows:

2760 BC: Organized Religion & Judaism
0350 BC: Philosophy was completed
0680 AD: Pacifism
1760 AD: Organized Religion
1860 AD: Pacifism
1925 AD: Organized Religion

In my next game, I plan to run Pacifism the year Philosophy is researched until generating more Great Artists is futile (born too late to affect the win date).

My game was played in many other less than optimal ways, so please don't use it as an argument against a Specialist Economy. In my opinion a Specialist Economy is the best kind for a OCC PA Cultural game. Building a cottage would be a complete waste, unless done before Civil Service was completed and converted into a Farm afterwards.

A couple of things about your game:

1) Did you ever build an academy? That and CS slingshot are my first priority.

A major error I committed, but forgot to mention: I built an Academy in 880 AD. I should have been running all Scientists as early as possible to generate a single, early Great Scientist (1st-3rd Great Person) to build an early Academy.

I do not plan to use a Civil Service slingshot via The Oracle again. I don't want Great Prophets mixing in with my precious Great Artists. With even just one permanent source of Great Prophet GPPs, you can't be sure of getting zero or one Great Prophet as suits your strategy; you get however many the random number generator determines.

2) What leader did you play? Vanilla or Warlords?

Warlords Gandhi for his Philosophical and Spiritual attributes. Philosophical provides the obvious 100% GPP bonus. Spiritual is often great for a Cultural win due to its half price Temples. However, for OCC, only one Temple is needed per Cathedral build. Also, since my final Culture was 130,000+, I clearly didn't need the two Cathedrals I built, thus neither were the Temples needed (except possibly for early happiness), especially after building Globe Theatre as this solves OCC unhappiness forever.

Another Philosophical leader may be a better choice. However, Spiritual allows both Civics changes and Religious conversions without Anarchy which means you can switch Civics or Religions anytime after the 5 turn wait to suit your strategy/tactics or when an AI demands you do so, all without Anarchy costs. I like getting the +1 Diplomacy point when giving in to these otherwise stupid demands from an AI.

3) I am extremely jealous of that starting location (which is saying a lot, as I had a great one myself).

I only ran Map Finder for about 18 hours. It was the best map. I suggest you have Map Finder save all maps, thus you don't have to know exactly what you desire in a map before running MF. You can decide later, by clicking on resource columns in Map Finder or by doing searches on the .txt files corresponding to each map.

4) If you get a GP, may I recommend either bulbing theology with it or settling it?

At one point, the GP lightbulb would research Monarchy, but I didn't really want it. Yes, there are many opportunities to bulb Great Prophets. I have used Great Prophets for the Theology bulb in other Cultural games. I think Philosophy is another Technology that can be researched with a Great Prophet bulb.

Bulbing a GP for Theology can be a great way to get both Code of Laws (researching it) and Theology (bulbing it) very quickly to prevent any AI from getting either one first.

Next time I play, I plan to have no Great Prophet GPP sources, thus no Great Prophets. I'd prefer to get all Great Artists and just one Great Scientist.

5) I wouldn't exactly consider Music the scenic route, as you need Music to be able to take Mil. Trad.

Yes, you are absolutely right! I was thinking about normal Culture games where the free Technology for Liberalism is generally either Printing Press, Nationalism, but almost never Military Tradition. In such cases, one needs to determine whether a beeline to Liberalism followed by Music will be better or the other way around. To get Military Tradition as the Liberalism free Tech, there is no chioce. Music must be researched before Liberalism.

OK, I should have said Divine Right instead of Music.

6) I usually save my GE for my PA partner, as I know they need help going legendary more than I do. I'd be interested to hear an argument against that.

Do you mean give the Great Engineer to your (future) PA parter so he may opt to use it to rush a World Wonder in the correct or wrong city?

I used my second GE to build Globe Theatre fast, so I could increase Population and Artists to build early Great Artists fast. In my opinion, this is better than gifting the GE to your future PA partner in hopes that he use it to build a Great Wonder in the correct city.

I used my first Great Engineer to rush The Sistine Chapel, because I didn't have Marble and I really wanted it fast. Roosevelt ran a lot of Specialists (though very few Artists) after the PA so the Sistine Chapel did generate enough Culture to justify using the GE to rush it.

Somewhat unrelated note: The AI may only run Artists when they are under Cultural pressure or they need a Great Artist for a Golden Age.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I used my second GE to build Globe Theatre fast, so I could increase Population and Artists to build early Great Artists fast. In my opinion, this is better than gifting the GE to your future PA partner in hopes that he use it to build a Great Wonder in the correct city.

I used my first Great Engineer to rush The Sistine Chapel, because I didn't have Marble and I really wanted it fast. Roosevelt ran a lot of Specialists (though very few Artists) after the PA so the Sistine Chapel did generate enough Culture to justify using the GE to rush it.

I can't be sure, but I think those 2 decisions are wrong.
I agree with the idea of building those 2 wonders. I don't think you were in such a hurry, though. Just build them the normal way. What did you build after them? Where you really in such a hurry to build the next thing?
 
Do you mean give the Great Engineer to your (future) PA parter so he may opt to use it to rush a World Wonder in the correct or wrong city?

After the PA is signed, you can use it on a wonder he is building yourself (i.e. you can choose to only use it once a wonder is started in one of the two cities). With the PA you don't have to gift it to him to use it.

Building a cottage would be a complete waste, unless done before Civil Service was completed and converted into a Farm afterwards.

That is exactly what I do. I played as Elizabeth (warlords, Phi,Fin). My opening research is Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Alpha. I skip AH and Agri because cottaged floodplains are more important to get up (and provide all the opening food I need). I cottage all of my grassland and floodplains until I get biology, and then switch them to farms.
 
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