G-Minor 94

Denniz

Where's my breakfast?
Hall of Fame Staff
Retired Moderator
Joined
Nov 28, 2003
Messages
11,102
Location
Dallas
While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

[size=+1](*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!
[/size]​

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Space Colony (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Settler
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Large
  • Map Type: Rain Forest
  • Speed: Normal
  • Civ: Any
  • Opponents: Any
  • Version: 3.19.003
  • Date: 10th to 24th April 2010
Must not play as Inca.

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker
 
Why Large? Such game will be just milking Settlers/Workers/Techs from Huts.
It should be Small or Hut off for appropriate competition.
 
Ban Huts:

In my opinion, there should be a total ban on Huts for all difficulty levels. I'm actually only against Huts when they provide a Technology. (I rarely play difficulty levels where Huts provide Settlers or Workers.)

I tend to avoid Huts, unless doing so would place me at a severe competitive disadvantage. For competitive play, including HOF Tables, would strongly suggest that they be banned.

Huts are a Fundamental Game Design Flaw:

Huts as designed in Civilization IV (Vanilla, Warlords and Beyond the Sword) are a fundamental game design flaw. It is less of a problem with faster Game speeds where the research rate is much faster than on Epic or especial Marathon speed. At Marathon speed, popping Bronze Working from a Hut on turn 0-10 or so is such an huge advantage, especially at Deity difficulty level, no one can reasonably compete such a a Game without also popping Bronze Working from a Hut in about the same time frame.

Almost all multiplayer games ban Huts from the games settings, because of this design flaw. Ii is unfortunately still allowed in almost all HOF single player games. I'm not sure about GOTM and SGOTM, but I suspect they usually don't allow Huts either.

Huts Destroy Strategy Development:

Huts also destroy any reasonable development of strategy, because a weaker strategy can often win over a clearly stronger strategy by popping one or more Technologies in all difficulty levels. In lower difficulty levels like this Gauntlet's Settler difficulty, popping more Settlers and Workers will be more of a winning factor than any sound strategy.

Of course it is possible to develop strategies with Huts in mind, but usually the main component of such a strategy is determining how to pop more Huts. A vast set of tactics can be developed with this goal in mind. Most will focus on popping Huts close to AI Culture before the AI itself can find them. When Map Type can be chosen, Terra is a strong candidate combined with a beeline to Optics to get to the "New World" and pop every single Hut there before the AI even gets to Compass. Astronomy is the largest (most advanced) Technology that has been known to be popped from a Hut, usually as a result of the Terra/Optics gambit as described in the previous sentence. No doubt there are many other tactics that abuse Huts.

The single most abused use of Huts that I suspect occurs involves starting hundreds or even thousands of games looking for that 1% that will pop Bronze Working or worst that will pop two Technologies that "unlock" a unique unit very early. (I recall a Game where I popped Bronze Working and a few turns later popped Iron Working; now need only to research The Wheel or start with it to begin building very early Swordsmen.) It has been reported that once a Technology has been popped from a Hut, there is a much higher chance that additional Huts will pop Technologies. Thus, the chance that a Game with Huts will pop both Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working might occur as 0.1% or maybe higher. Don't think it can't be done, because it would be very tedious; depending on map size and a super fast game machine, a game can be quickly played to pop the 1-2 Huts visible in a MapFinder image and another 0-2 that come into view in less than a minute. Getting Bronze Working from a Hut would be a simple matter of starting such games for about 1-2 hours. Getting two highly desirable Technologies from Huts probably wouldn't be much more than 10-20 hours of effort for the truly committed Hut hunter, assuming that Technology Hut clusters really exist. It should be noted that such a Hut Hunting Gambit works only for HOF type games allowing multiple game starts. Also, as noted before, Technologies popped from Huts are much more powerful in the slower Game speeds, Epic and especially Marathon.

However, Please Enjoy Huts when Permitted:

On the other hand, I must admit that Huts can be fun, especially with No Barbarians selected (forbidden in this Gauntlet BTW). So please do enjoy them, assuming they continue to be permitted for this Gauntlet.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Sorry, was saying Huts on at lower levels is basically; who can pop the most settlers, not really who has the best strategy to achieve the goal.
 
On higher levels where the AI starts with scouts huts on is probably a disadvantage ;) It does up the tech rate for you though so can be useful.

I always play with barbs on and huts anyway.

I'm not going to play a large settler game though ;) Maybe if it was quick speed I would have been tempted.
 
I've experimented with this level at marathon speed so the change to normal speed makes this interesting. I do not expect to make much effort at trying this one but would like to point out that Sun's comments, while good, may not be accurate for this level.

The main flaw in his reasoning is that mapfinder is virtually useless at this level. I do have a 490AD win (Darius) in the HoF table and my capitol was settled 21S 26E of the starting position in that game and never got anywhere close to putting a city in the original location. Early exploration is critical. Thus the only real use for mapfinder is to save ANY start with at least one hut, the worse looking the start the better. Ironically, I did pop BW on the same turn as founding the capitol (turn 20) in the 490AD game, but came very close to abandonning the game since it did not look like enough settlers were being popped from huts. Indeed, I did abandon other games where more tech had been popped than the 490AD game (where I popped tech all the way to music!) simply because of settler-popping bad luck.

Another flaw is the analysis regarding UU's. So many settlers will get popped that it is trivial to settle next to AIs and 3-warrior rush them. No UU is required. If you choose eight AI opponents, you can probably warrior rush 4-6 of them. (This is easy to do at marathon speed.) Furthermore, you may also stumble onto an undefended AI capitol. (Take note of this possibility, if you start with a warrior instead of a scout.)

Strategy: Explore, explore, explore. Determine the time frame where the capitol must be founded. Settle the capitol to enable tech popping but hold off on other cities to allow maximum exploration. Determine the point where a game can be abandonned due to poor hut luck (~40-50.) That is, have a goal on how many settlers and how much tech to acquire from huts.

Leader choice: It's hard to beat Darius although I did acheive a 630AD win with Roosevelt at this level. If Roosevelt can achieve fast space colony games, so can you!

Good luck to anyone who wants to try this and don't forget to explore, explore, explore.

Edit: BTS is to be recommended for this gauntlet. Cash popped from huts is considerably higher than Warlords/Vanilla and will nicely compensate for sub-optimal tech popping. This did occur in the Roosevelt game so do not despair if it seems like too many settlers get popped. (One of the advantages of settler level is the ability to pop settlers, so it makes no sense to argue in favor of huts off for this level. Why take up a settler level challenge if one of it's main advantages is turned off?)
 
Where does it say "No Barbarians" is forbidden for this gauntlet?
It doesn't. With early exploration being critical at this level, it is best to turn them off. By doing so it also eliminates the risk of huts spawning hostile barbs thereby increasing odds of something more favorable.
 
good leaders for this game is probably gandhi, asoka (for faster workers -> likely to pop more huts), elizaeth, darius, victoria(?), frederick (cheaper universities, courthouses, factories), roosevelt(forge, wonders, and organized buildings).

Useful wonders: pyramid, Glibrary, Parthenon, Oracle(get CS, Education, Railroads, Superconductors or other late game tech), Mining Inc on production cities, maybe Sid Sushi or Cereal Mill depending on food situations.

Is BC win possible?
 
Where does it say "No Barbarians" is forbidden for this gauntlet?

Sorry, I was mistaken. "No Barbarians" can be checked or unchecked as desired. Also "Raging Barbarians" can be checked or unchecked as desired.

There have been so many Gauntlets with "No Barbarians" prohibited, ... I made an incorrect assumption, without double checking the Game settings.

Please excuse me, while I crawl into a Cave and hide my :blush:.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Did some research on this map type and normal speed game space win dates. It may be possible to achieve a 1350AD win on a higher level with a PA. But here a 1550AD win would be quite stellar. My prediction, assuming reasonable interest in this gauntlet, is that 2nd place will go to a win around 1600AD.

I could find only one rainforest map with seafood: only clams and even then rare.

Asoka may indeed be a good choice for a leader though I maintain that Darius must be regarded as the leader to beat. Not sure on how well philo will work out at normal speed. At marathon it is clearly sub-optimal. The faster a player achieves space, the less time he/she has to leverage philo. The same might be said of mining inc but it could work out well here. I am somewhat tempted to resurrect the American Roosevelt and cereal mills/mall the game. That might also require mining inc too. It would also force me to turn in another athletic performance with a leader with a physical handicap. (Kind of satisfying in a way.) Perhaps this reasoning is heading towards an organized leader? Problem is that if I do turn in a good Roosevelt game I will KNOW that Darius can beat the date. Then feel obliged to try and do so. At 25-40 hours per game ... BLAH.

Edit: I am a pragmatist. Oracle in civil service. Period. Just do it. Liberalism: democracy if you opt for the fast cottage strategy. Just do it. Otherwise the factory tech for Darius. (I don't get fancy with him.) For Roosevelt ... I don't know yet. (At marathon I would hold out for plastics. Perhaps the CM/UB tech at normal speed?) For settler level space games I look for a practical tech from liberalism. Its usually best not to wait too long.
 
Did some research on this map type and normal speed game space win dates. It may be possible to achieve a 1350AD win on a higher level with a PA. But here a 1550AD win would be quite stellar. My prediction, assuming reasonable interest in this gauntlet, is that 2nd place will go to a win around 1600AD.

With 1-2 Settlers and Workers from Huts good date could be 1200-1300AD for this game.
But I think I will not play Large - too long for me.
 
how many cities are optimal for early win?
 
I have a 1585 AD win with Gandhi in the submission queue at the moment. So we can do a lot better.

Rainforests are bad for popping huts
Your capital spot is nice and clean, but the rest of the world is jungle. Ick. This is where those fast workers truly shine, as they can move through two squares of jungle per turn, as long as the first move isn't on a jungle hill! Definitely won't get the kind of luck we got on Inland Sea (which was the last Settler Space Colony gauntlet, though at Marathon speed). I only got two or three settlers from the Gandhi game. Finding good spots is also tricky.


Fast workers rule!
Normal speed + jungles galore = saved worker turns mean a lot! Now, we can have the argument for Philo vs. Organized, but I think having fast workers is the biggest factor.

Food heavy cap = whip like mad!
It is not uncommon to find disgustingly good food cities either as your cap or as a subsequent city for a classic GP farm. Note that because it's normal speed and settler that the obvious Nat Park GP farm (preserving jungles) isn't really worth the time spent setting it up. My early game consisted of 3-pop whipping settlers quite a bit to get land (and I think I should have done even more cities), followed by workers. And because it's settler, I have enough happy cap to deal with the anger. Even more importantly, settler gives enough of a health cap such that I can settle cities in the middle of the jungle and can actually grow to size 2!

Executives don't like the rainforest
There aren't enough resources that are covered by the corporations we want (Sid's (almost no sea), Cereal (except for sugar), Mining [resources are not dense]), especially given the Large size (corps resource bonus is scaled inversely proportional to map size). On the other hand, State Property + Caste System + workshops = lots of production easily.

What to Oracle and Lib?
I got Education with Oracle, though my development was still too nascent to get Oxford until much later. CS is a bit early IMO when we're in Settler level, though I can see how it will help with whips.

Liberalism is a more interesting beast, especially if you want State Property (as Communism requires Liberalism as prereq). I went with Superconductors (through Refrigeration route) for Laboratories, though I'm considering going to Genetics (where I only need medicine and superconductors above what I did the first game). Why? Because...

:yuck: :yuck: :mad:
Your three biggest enemies in this game in order (the AI's are a joke). Just not enough health resources (especially Granary-enhanced ones), and happy also becomes an issue.

Next game I will build more cities (I challenge you to get bankrupt on Settler!) while getting lots more Workers! Hagia Sophia may actually be warranted here, hmm...

Finally, I would like to comment on how smart the automated workers were that game. Even before State Property, they were spamming workshops everywhere that I didn't want a cottage. How pleasing :)
 
With 1-2 Settlers and Workers from Huts good date could be 1200-1300AD for this game
Quite a statement. I'd be playing for ~8 settlers and ~6 workers from huts.

Asoka's workers could dominate the early exploration phase. The big difference between normal and marathon speed is a loss in movement advantage. A unit spending 40 turns exploring is a lot of turns at normal speed but not so big a deal at marathon. This makes 3- move workers uber scouts on this map.
 
Well, I cleared most of my map last night in my first attempt, and got one measly settler and one worker!

I think I'll give it another try. I know the last Chieftain guantlet, I got at least 6 settlers.

Thinking maybe I erred in going with a non-hunting Civ. I had no other civs nearby to take with my warrior, anyhow, so all it did was slow my exploration. I'm going to ponder that more.
 
Top Bottom