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Gaddafi is history! Tripoli is free!

There are some things I find strange....
I think that libya will enter the democratic world. Jump on the same fraudulent wagon as most of the "free world". People will vote in great numbers. And the western backed puppet will ofcourse win the elections. There will be no real democratically elected head of an oil state atleast not when we have the influence to make it so.
I hope not but I think this is what will happen. Looking at Iraq and Afghanistan.
And looking back in history, on the top of my mind, I cant find any western backed invasions, revolts or revolutions that were really good for the peoples.
Maybe some of you can refresh my mind :)

Thundering typhoons! I have woken up in 1970s in Latin America.

It is not the help getting rid of the tyrants I worry about.
its the help afterwards...
But in the case of Egypt. yeah the west did NOTHING to help topple Mubarak.
The west supplied him with his machinery, money and everything else to keep the egyptians down. All in the name of a war on terror. And it is the same for Gaddhafi, Bashar Al Assad, King Saud, Nouri el Maliki, Hamid Karzai and nearly every other leader in the middle east. Look at Bahrain?
ALL of them supported by us western nations untill they fall then we dont support them anymore and support the winners so we can get some easy influence in order to exploit them further.

No one is going to dispute that Western Nations prefer stability under a non-Stalinesque dictator than instability and war. But what would you prefer the democratic nations do? Boycott half the world? Because South Africa and North Korea are a perfect examples of it not helping at all. It's better to reach out economically than to shun them politically, in the hopes that economic development will lead to the loosening of political restrictions.
No one will say that China or Vietnam are leaders in human rights protection, but the economic development of the last 30 years have brought more loosening of freedoms in the two countries than 40 years of refusing to talk with China and Vietnam.
After all, which is better? A nation that actively suppresses freedom of speech and murders it's people en mass, or a nation that only just suppresses freedom of speech and is willing to, with each coming year, let there be a little more leeway.

It's a unspoken tolerance of the Western Nations in hope for a better future.
What the Arab Spring did was provide an opportunity for things to take another path.
Especially when rulers start to mow down their people.

China, is I agree, a very powerful player in Africa & Middle east. Why do you think the "international community" now are busy getting some influence? We are loosing a whole continent and the whole oil region to China!
But it is the same imperialism China is practicing as we in the west are.

Libya =/= Africa
Africa is a not a child being pulled by both China and the West.
China and the West may be competing for economic trade and political influence, but they are not controlling the policies of the African countries like they own the place.
 
Thundering typhoons! I have woken up in 1970s in Latin America.



No one is going to dispute that Western Nations prefer stability under a non-Stalinesque dictator than instability and war. But what would you prefer the democratic nations do? Boycott half the world? Because South Africa and North Korea are a perfect examples of it not helping at all. It's better to reach out economically than to shun them politically, in the hopes that economic development will lead to the loosening of political restrictions.
No one will say that China or Vietnam are leaders in human rights protection, but the economic development of the last 30 years have brought more loosening of freedoms in the two countries than 40 years of refusing to talk with China and Vietnam.
After all, which is better? A nation that actively suppresses freedom of speech and murders it's people en mass, or a nation that only just suppresses freedom of speech and is willing to, with each coming year, let there be a little more leeway.

It's a unspoken tolerance of the Western Nations in hope for a better future.
What the Arab Spring did was provide an opportunity for things to take another path.
Especially when rulers start to mow down their people.



Libya =/= Africa
Africa is a not a child being pulled by both China and the West.
China and the West may be competing for economic trade and political influence, but they are not controlling the policies of the African countries like they own the place.

Blistering barnacles!!!
Yes what should have changed since the 1970s...? The only that have changed is the enemy. In the 70's it was communists, now it is islam.
And why only South America? Add Asia, Middle east and Africa to the list.
Africa is indeed a child. a child being molested by the western nations and recently china and russia joined as well. Most of the old colonies are still in function.
Regarding Libya, Libya wasn't poor. Most libyans are not poor when compared to real poor people. But ofcourse money is not everything. They didnt have many rights ofcourse. I am not for Gaddhafi and yes it is good he is being removed. it should just have been the Libyans themselves and not us in NATO doing it.
You really think all this help comes without a price? Billions of dollars in bombs and machinery? No we are there to secure exploitative deals and to ensure we can entrap them into our Aid carousel.
 
Especially that NATO has absolutely no intention to send a single military guy in Libya. I hardly see on which ground they will have a say on anything.After all, France ruined itself in helping the US to get independent, and once that was done, the US immediately continued trading with English folks as if nothing happened. What France could do? Nothing.

But I don't blame you guys because the French kingdom's bankrupcy is probably what triggered the revolution... and I just love to live in a Republic.

SAS is hunting gaddhafi as we speak according to news now...
But what can we really believe?
Independant journos are saying it is all BS. That NATO attack at night, leaving the streets for the rebels to roam at day. People is being killed in their 1000s by the NATO and rebel fighters.
Mainstream media are reporting that people are coming out to party on the streets, that the Gaddhafi forces are with their backs against the wall, fighting furiously for their lives...
 
Tinfoil hats make terrible helmets as you well know.

Not from (Muslamic)ray guns and the psi ops of CIA and the lizards who control them!

http://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/krigogkatastrofer/article1606175.ece

Link from the danish tabloid reporting SAS activity...

But I think classical hero misunderstood... cause i meant what to believe? the mainstream media or the ones who are reporting otherwise?
Russia Today have had many reports about the war, which are not at all like reports from CNN, Jazeera and so on...
There is an incredible amount of information and disinformation going on.
 
SAS is hunting gaddhafi as we speak according to news now...
I meant that no one talks about occupying the country.

If you don't occupy a country, you can hardly have the last word... especially in a country such as Libya which is filled with oil.
 
But I think classical hero misunderstood... cause i meant what to believe? the mainstream media or the ones who are reporting otherwise?
Russia Today have had many reports about the war, which are not at all like reports from CNN, Jazeera and so on...
There is an incredible amount of information and disinformation going on.

Bahaha!

Russia Today is as bad as it gets when news is concerned.

Stick with CNN and AJE ;)
 
Citing Russia Today is really not going to help your case.

Even if there's Western propaganda going on, which interests does Al Jazeera have in backing it up? On the other hand, the reports of major western broadcasting companies like CNN or BBC all have been similar to Al Jazeera's, so I don't get how they propagate things either.

Except of course if Reporters Without Borders is part of the Great Western Propaganda Machine (tm) as well :rolleyes:

Edit: crossposted by people who didn't bother to include links ;)
 
Isn't it kinda odd that there was barely any government resistence against the rebels? (As opposed to police actions)

I am certain, somewhat, that the "reported killing" by Gaddafi Forces, were in fact actions to protect property from looters. Not that I am defending that or the other side.
 
In my experience, CNN has reported many half truths and outright lies in support of the interests of the US Department of State. For example, in April 2007 CNN used footage from a protest march in Mexico, due to the killing of reporters, and presented it as if it had been a protest in Venezuela against Chavez.

Obama said yesterday that the US is ready to be a "friend" to Libya (and its oil). The image that pops into my head is one from an old beer commercials where one guy declares his love and friendship for another guy in hopes of getting some beer.

NATO did not lift a finger in support of the peaceful revolt in Egypt against Mubarak, since Mubarak protected Western interests. But NATO doesn't waste a moment to send squadrons to bomb Libya in support of some rebels armed with weapons of suspicious provenance.
 
Obama said yesterday that the US is ready to be a "friend" to Libya (and its oil). The image that pops into my head is one from an old beer commercials where one guy declares his love and friendship for another guy in hopes of getting some beer.

I still find the it hilarious the notion that whenever the United States improves relations with a state, we magically get all their oil.

NATO did not lift a finger in support of the peaceful revolt in Egypt against Mubarak, since Mubarak protected Western interests. But NATO doesn't waste a moment to send squadrons to bomb Libya in support of some rebels armed with weapons of suspicious provenance.

Mubarak didn't declare war on his own people, and send in troops to fight them. And he eventually did step down due to the pressure. If we had gone in there, you would now be deriding us for intervening in something that is not of out business, and being the world police.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
 
Heheh
Yeah I like some of the stuff they air on RT
But I am not believing either this nor that.
Just pointing out that there are same differences in how this fight is shown.

Mubarak did indeed order his army out to repress the people but the army refused.
 
Plus, people obsessed with principles not always recognize that there are limits to foreign policy dictated by the realities on the ground.

In other words, if the bad guys are too strong, there is nothing we can do. It's not hypocrisy, it's realism.

Gaddafi was weak and when the opportunity to get rid of him and do some good in the process presented itself, the West would have been stupid not to take it.
 
I still find the it hilarious the notion that whenever the United States improves relations with a state, we magically get all their oil.

The whole idea that picking sides in a conflict equals some sort of imperialism is pretty funny as well.
 
Financial Times said:
Rebels have broken into Col Muammer Gaddafi’s compound, witnesses say, after a day of fierce fighting around the Libyan leader’s heavily-fortified stronghold in the capital Tripoli.

Anti-Gaddafi fighters have breached the six sq km compound and fired into the air in celebration. There has been heavy fighting, gunfire and explosions around and within the Bab al-Aziziya compound, with thick clouds of smoke visible in the Tripoli sky.
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It is unclear where Col Gaddafi is, though reports out of Russia suggest he is alive and in Tripoli. Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, president of the international chess federation, told Reuters he had spoken with the colonel and his son Mohammed. ”He is in Tripoli, he is alive and healthy and is prepared to fight to the end,” said Mr Illyumzhinov, who was pictured playing chess with the colonel in June.

Rebel forces swept through Tripoli streets in a weekend advance welcomed by world leaders. About 80 per cent of the Libyan capital is now controlled by forces opposed to Col Gaddafi, the European Union's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said, citing rebel leaders.

“For the Gaddafi regime, this is the final chapter,” said Nato spokesperson Oana Lungescu. “The end is near.”

Earlier alliance military officers said regime forces were still defending coastal access roads between Brega and Misurata, as well as routes between Tripoli and the south.

The alliance officials said the fighting posed a threat to civilians, meaning they had no plans to scale back their mission. “We have to have a presence,” said one Nato official. “In order to be able to do something, you have to be over top [of Tripoli]. You can’t act sitting in your bases.”

However, the officials reiterated that they were not co-ordinating their attacks with the rebels and said they would not conduct close-air support for opposition forces in Tripoli.

In response to reports that Nato planes had targeted the colonel’s compound, French Col. Roland Lavoie, a spokesman for the operation’s headquarters in Naples, said that while command-and-control facilities were a legitimate target, the alliance would not specifically bomb facilities like Mr Gaddafi’s compound in central Tripoli simply because he may be there. “We do not target individuals, and Gaddafi is not a target for Nato,” Col. Lavoie said.
Col Gaddafi’s compound

Bab al-Aziziya means Splendid Gate. It houses Col Gaddafi’s private quarters as well as a military barracks.

The six sq km base is located south of Tripoli at the northern end of Airport Highway.

The site is normally dotted with tents, residential buildings, security encampments, and the remains of a house bombed by the US in 1986 and kept in ruins as a memorial.

The compound is believed to be linked to a network of tunnels and bunkers that lead to other parts of Tripoli and possibly the sea.

Source: Reuters

Seif al Islam, who rebels on Monday claimed to have in detention, appeared overnight in a Gaddafi stronghold in Tripoli, claiming that the rebels had fallen into “a trap” in the capital city.

Wearing a full beard, an olive tee shirt and camouflage trousers, Seif al-Islam Gaddafi arrived at the Rixos hotel early on Tuesday morning. He did not comment on how he had escaped custody or indeed if he had ever been detained. "We broke the back of the rebels. It was a trap. We gave them a hard time, so we are winning," he told reporters.

Asked if his father, who has not been seen in public for weeks, was safe and well in Tripoli, he said: "Of course."

“A brief appearance in the dead of night doesn't indicate, to me, somebody who's in control of a country or capital, or anything much at all really,” Nato spokeswoman Oana Lungescu told reporters in Brussels. "It shows that the remnants of the regime are on the run."

Nick Clegg, UK deputy prime minister, said that “our assessment is that Free Libya forces now control much, but not all, of Tripoli”. He added that it was “only a matter of time before they are finally defeated and Libya is completely free”. International Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell blamed the confusion over his arrest on the “fog of warfare'”.

Brent crude had fallen 70 cents to $107.66 by 1402 GMT on Tuesday, amid continued uncertainty about the situation in Tripoli.

link what now?
 
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