Galleys in oceans
- Thread starter Thoughtful Thug
- Start date
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
I don't think there's any need for such a unit. It doesn't really portray the historical reality. Other than certain seafaring cultures like the Polynesians or Vikings (who could maybe get a UU) nobody really did any deep ocean exploring in ancient times. It's easy enough to mod such a craft in, if people really want one.
I know there are alot of pop theories out there about Hebrews and Egyptians and Africans and whatnot, but pop theories aren't established history. They can be represented in a mod. Plus - the mystery of foreign lands adds an element to gameplay and makes the age of discovery and sail more interesting. The ancient era is usually a busy time, as you build up your civ and begin meeting your neighbours. Saving long-range discovery for later leaves something to look forward to. Part of the fun of the game is slowly revealing the world around you - acquiring a complete map of the globe before you even have knights is neither historical nor fun.
But IF there were to be such a craft, it should definately not be a Meditteranean-style galley. The idea is impossible; ancient galleys of the Meditteranean were not capable of staying in the water more than a day or two without becoming waterlogged, and had to be beached every night. They did have sailing vessels in ancient times. They wouldn't have been very good for ocean voyaging, but alot better than a galley. Here are some Roman merchants, for instance:
Not really very good for ocean travel at all, but alot more plausible than a galley.
That's not really an argument against allowing a very, very small chance of success, though. Add in a nice supply system to make the upkeep of a long voyage very high, combine it with the exceptionally low chance of success, and you have a situation in which it is very unlikely in which galleys can traverse oceans, but it is still a remote possibility.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
But in reality it isn't even a remote possibility. It's simply physically impossible - for a galley, anyway.
There are other classes of ancient vessels that have a possibility (a kayak or catamaran being the best bet), but not galleys. They can't stay in the water more than a couple of days at a time, even if you had a magical extra-dimensional space in which to store enough supplies for 200 rowers. They'd become waterlogged in just a few days, and turn into a submerged (but still floating) wreck, because of the types of wood that had to be used in their design. You're as likely to cross the Atlantic in a galley as you are to cross on a tree that fell in the water.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
double post
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
Actually cedar is very porous and absorbs moisture (and, incidentally, sound) excellently. This is part of the reason (besides the aroma and rot-resistance) that it was favoured so much. Any room or building constructed with it would be quiet and dry.
All soft woods are porous, without exception. The only woods that aren't really porous are the really hard, heavy (sometimes almost iron-like) woods like elm and oak. The advantage of softwood in shipbuilding in the ancient Meditteranean is that it doesn't sink, it gets waterlogged after a while, but it will never sink - it just turns into driftwood. It's also much lighter. This means that the ships could move faster with less force, and also, if the hull happened to get staved in, the ship could always be recovered and repaired, and perhaps even the cargo could be recovered.
Ships of the European explorers, on the other hand, were built of hardwoods like oak. The advantage of using hardwood is that the vessel is more durable, especially under the strains of rough conditions typical of the open ocean, and it can stay in the water indefinately. But, it will sink to the bottom if it loses buoyancy.
In the game, I think 'galley' is meant to represent 'ancient boat' more so than what is actually technically a galley. And it is seemingly possible for rudimentary boats to cross large ocean gaps. Hence why the Pacific islands were populated.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
The boats used were not at all 'rudimentary'. They were small ... but that's not the same thing as rudimentary. We don't use galleys or caravels anymore, but we do use catamarans - not just for recreation, either. The hull design is widely employed in ferries.
They were produced by a society that was intensely specialized in sea travel, and capable of incredible feats of ocean voyaging. They are exceptional.
Well, I was using 'rudimentary' in the sense of 'ancient' (admittedly not the correct sense), not 'basic', with my point being that it should be somehow possible to enter ocean tiles before caravels, even if the official designation of the naval units used to do so is 'galley'.
frekk
Scourge of St. Lawrence
The point is that ancient Romans or Egyptians or whoever didn't have catamarans, or any equivalent craft specially designed for ocean travel. The Polynesian craft were a product of a specific sort of culture that was more specialized in ocean travel than any other society on the planet - an exceptional and unique society in this regard. No one else had this capability until the late middle ages or so.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Why? Sure, a few people did it historically, but by and large there was no contact between civs on other continents before caravels.
Its a gameplay design to keep the continents separate, and then have an age of colonization and conquest, where the powers of a more advanced continent can try to go conquer the less advanced one.
GhostWriter16
Deity
I think there should be a 50/50 chance. Why? It makes it interesting. There aren't very good odds of getting far, but it still makes things entertaining.
HalfBadger
The Great Whackyness
I found Civ III the suicide galley an exploit, since the AI never/rarely did it. It meant you could trade contact and tech and get a huge advantage.
In Civ IV contact trading wasn't including so I assume it won't be in Civ V. Also I believe tech trading won't be an option. Another potnetially exploit of this would be to spread your religion to a Civ, which would help with a Diplomatic victory, but since Religion won't be in Civ V, I don't think the suicide galley will be as exploitable.
I like the idea of a galley receiving damage due to harsher waters. This way a galley can cross 1-2 ocean tiles and if ends its turn on a coast it'll be ok. The problem with the chance of sinking ideas, is that it's almost a waste. Since to settle another land mass you have a chance of losing a lot of units. Also any new resource you find shouldn't be able to be used on your original land mass, since it might not make it across.
There should be a system to let galleys cross water when you can see another land mass. I believe in on of Jared Diamond's books Guns, Germs and Steel or Collapse, he explained that early seafarers didn't need to see land per se. Since birds fly around land masses, seafarers could look to the sky and watch for birds/certain types and be able to deduce where land is, without seeing it. This is I believe how the Polynesian island are theorized to have been traveled/populated. So maybe just being able to see another coast, could be sufficient for safe travel for a galley.
In Civ IV contact trading wasn't including so I assume it won't be in Civ V. Also I believe tech trading won't be an option. Another potnetially exploit of this would be to spread your religion to a Civ, which would help with a Diplomatic victory, but since Religion won't be in Civ V, I don't think the suicide galley will be as exploitable.
I like the idea of a galley receiving damage due to harsher waters. This way a galley can cross 1-2 ocean tiles and if ends its turn on a coast it'll be ok. The problem with the chance of sinking ideas, is that it's almost a waste. Since to settle another land mass you have a chance of losing a lot of units. Also any new resource you find shouldn't be able to be used on your original land mass, since it might not make it across.
There should be a system to let galleys cross water when you can see another land mass. I believe in on of Jared Diamond's books Guns, Germs and Steel or Collapse, he explained that early seafarers didn't need to see land per se. Since birds fly around land masses, seafarers could look to the sky and watch for birds/certain types and be able to deduce where land is, without seeing it. This is I believe how the Polynesian island are theorized to have been traveled/populated. So maybe just being able to see another coast, could be sufficient for safe travel for a galley.
Ahriman
Tyrant
If you can contact civs before caravels, that makes oceans less interesting, not more, because they cease to be the early game barrier that they should be.
GhostWriter16
Deity
It's personal opinion. In single player, its less of a big deal, but in multiplayer, its terrible to wait as long as you have to in isolation. It just isn't fun, especially if you're a warmongeror (Like me, as my penname implies, though I can play peaceful, overall, war is more fun for me)
Ahriman
Tyrant
Civ really is primarily a singleplayer game. If multiplayer people want to contact each other early, they can play on pangaea-type mapscripts. Don't break the singleplayer game to fulfill a narrow multiplayer-only design.
GhostWriter16
Deity
That is a valid point. You could make it an option, but it'd kill balance. I personally feel that there should be a chance, and I am entitled to my opinion. A lot of people agree with my opinion. You also are entitled to your opinion and probably have many who agree to your opinion.
