Game Saturn

[Joshua368]

Well I'd say it's finally time to get down to business, wouldn't you agree? You guys take forever to declare anyway. Let the fun begin!

Turn order:

- Clamburger
- Plako

(let's see how long it takes until some jerk goes nuts and razes a city )

 

[Lord Parkin]

Aw, and I can't even log in to participate in the fun.

 

[plako]

I haven't yet checked what happened, but Joshua you seemed to double move me in the beginning. I have a hunch this gave you quite a bit of an advantage.

 

[Joshua368]

War wasn't declared until 1590 AD. As that is the current move, it would be impossibe for me to have double moved you.

I didn't mean to be last to make the previous move... I was at work all day. The transports were already close enough to attack anyway, nothing terribly sneaky happened in the pre-war turn.

Nothing major was lost and I didn't raze, just captured some island cities. Interested to see the retaliation.

 

[Joshua368]

Aw, and I can't even log in to participate in the fun.

Yeah, how long until you get back?

I certainly don't like declaring on Clamburger's side while he's still out, not sure when he comes back. But when given an oppurtunity you sometimes have to take it...

 

[plako]

It is also double move, if you move troops in position without giving me chance to react between turns, if you're going to declare.

It was quite costly to me. It seems I have holes in my basic game knowledge. Naturally troops inside ships don't defend.

 

[Joshua368]

It is also double move, if you move troops in position without giving me chance to react between turns, if you're going to declare.

Parkin can either confirm or deny this as he has much more experience, but it's my knowledge that it is pretty common in surprise attacks, people setting up their declare right before the turn flip.

Once again though in this case all the ships were already in range in the previous turn, not hidden out of sight or anything. The double pre-war turn wasn't intentional, just my schedule...

It was quite costly to me. It seems I have holes in my basic game knowledge. Naturally troops inside ships don't defend.

Yeah, on the other hand I have no way of seeing what units (if any) are inside the transports, so there's a mixed blessing in the mechanics. For all I knew they were empty.

 

[plako]

Parkin can either confirm or deny this as he has much more experience, but it's my knowledge that it is pretty common in surprise attacks, people setting up their declare right before the turn flip.

Once again though in this case all the ships were already in range in the previous turn, not hidden out of sight or anything. The double pre-war turn wasn't intentional, just my schedule...

Why didn't you declare last turn then? This seems bit unfair to me. There is still plenty of time in the timer. Why didn't you wait until I can see your positioning and declared after I had made my move this turn?

 

[Elkad]

I didn't mean to be last to make the previous move... I was at work all day. The transports were already close enough to attack anyway, nothing terribly sneaky happened in the pre-war turn.

Double-move rules typically include the turn prior to a war declaration. Even when not specifically listed, in my opinion it's unsportsmanlike.

Seems grounds for a reload if plako wants one. If your units were already in range, including any air assets, etc, then he could skip asking for the reload. And if we do reload, he'd be expected to display good sportsmanship and attempt to not take advantage of the advance warning.

---------
Rules specifically for this game

2.2 - When a war is declared, the participants must follow a strict turn order to avoid double moves. Players can only log in within their order, and do not log in out of turn, even if you don't plan on moving any units. There is no way to check what you did or did not move on civstats. The turn order must be announced on the game's thread here on the forum.

Rule's from the 4 games oob hosted, which have since gotten reused by a bunch of other pitboss games. Pre-declare doubling specifically listed.
http://theoob.googlepages.com/pitbossrules.html

Rules from the Face of the Enemy and Land of the blind games are similar
http://z14.invisionfree.com/Parkinsworld/index.php?showtopic=206

Tactical Gamer

It is possible to take back to back turns and gain an unfair advantage over another player, especially during a war. Rather than come up with a long list of rules all players will be expected to avoid these type of situations to the best of their ability

civplayers.com

Double moves: I will not post long rules about this...try to display sportsmanship on the issue!

Browsing thru the various games in the /multiplayer/pitboss forum here on civfanatics will show numerous other examples.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Parkin can either confirm or deny this as he has much more experience, but it's my knowledge that it is pretty common in surprise attacks, people setting up their declare right before the turn flip.

It's common to prepare for war many turns ahead in these games, but the general consensus is that double moves are not permitted either during war, or on the turn of a war declaration. It doesn't matter whether you think that nothing much was changed when you moved twice in succession - the point is that Plako can't know for sure whether this is true or not. Half of the point of the "no double moves" rule is not just to prevent people moving units twice, but to prevent giving people any grounds for suspicion that you might have done something sneaky. Obviously such accusations can make for very bitter arguments indeed.

If you declare war in your proper turn order, nobody can ever complain that you did anything wrong. If you declare war out of your turn order - whether you make any double moves or not - then you give your rival reasonable grounds for suspicion and accusation. It's better to just avoid that, because even if you didn't do anything wrong, it creates unnecessary tensions between players.

I have to say in this case that you've definitely given Plako reasonable grounds to ask for a reload, even if you didn't actually double move anything. I have to agree with Plako when he points out:

Why didn't you declare last turn then? This seems bit unfair to me. There is still plenty of time in the timer. Why didn't you wait until I can see your positioning and declared after I had made my move this turn?

If it truly wouldn't have made a difference, why not just play in the proper turn order and give Plako no grounds for suspicion?

War wasn't declared until 1590 AD. As that is the current move, it would be impossibe for me to have double moved you.

But you double moved in the declaration.

I didn't mean to be last to make the previous move... I was at work all day. The transports were already close enough to attack anyway, nothing terribly sneaky happened in the pre-war turn.

This doesn't exactly inspire confidence, to be honest. So something sort-of sneaky could have happened?

(See how messy this can get when you give someone grounds for suspicion? Hence why it's better to avoid it by playing in order all the time during wars and war declarations. )

 

[Lord Parkin]

By the way, I have some very personal experience which influenced my take on this. In my very first pitboss game, I double moved during a declaration to raze one of a very powerful opponent's prime cities. Even though he could see my transport many turns previously and never did anything about it, my double move during a declaration gave him enough grounds to demand a reload. Of course, when the game was reloaded it was no longer possible for me to capture his city, because he now knew what I planned to do with that transport, so he sunk it.

It sucked, but it taught me a valuable lesson: never give an opponent a chance to have grounds for suspicion in a war. Always declare war in the turn order, and you won't have to worry about anyone demanding a reload and your gains being reverted, because everyone knows for sure that you're playing fair.

 

[plako]

I'm requesting reload. Double move was very damaging and was more than minorly beneficial to Clamburger/Joshua. Joshua could have done this also right. There was no rush to act before me this turn. I regularily play my turns within first 12h of the timer and often even during first 6h.

Joshua taught me a valuable lesson. I'm quite inexperienced in warfare and made a very big mistake of leaving my ships on harbor and troops on ships. I can live with losing half of may ships and plenty of troops and i probably deserved to lose them, but at least Joshua should have done this without double moving.

 

[Elkad]

Reloading to just before clam(josh) moved on the prior turn would seem to be the correct solution.

If his units were actually in position, he can declare on the prior turn and then logout. After the flip, plako would have the opportunity to counterattack or whatever, but would still have no pre-knowledge of the declaration

 

[plako]

Reloading to just before clam(josh) moved on the prior turn would seem to be the correct solution.

If his units were actually in position, he can declare on the prior turn and then logout. After the flip, plako would have the opportunity to counterattack or whatever, but would still have no pre-knowledge of the declaration

Seems fairest to me also. Since Clamburger save from last turn is probably overwritten. Lord Pakin save from previous turn could work. I don't remember all the actions I made, but I promise I won't help myself more than I did before .

 

[plako]

After reconsidereation I trust Joshua's word on not getting unfair advantage and we can continue from this point without reload.

 

[Joshua368]

Big thank you, partially because the turn I played on my main account afterwards was very time consuming and don't want to spend an hour doing it again.

Also knowing to avoid the pre-war double move is very important, I will not do that if I declare in the future. Though if you want to get the first turn in the war order (due to the advantages such as promoting units) but can't due to real life keeping you out of the game (even if I take less than 12 hours) is there any way to get it without delaying the war? Or do you just have to take 2nd order?

 

[Elkad]

Turn Order
1. Joshua and Giger
2. Elkad

Incidentally, that's possibly the worst combat luck since I lost 2 attacking chariots at 98.7% and 99.1% over a year ago (costing me the entire war, and quickly losing my civ) at the beginning of the Gathering Storm game.

 

[plako]

As the situation seems to be escalating to world war I'm having trouble to find time to play 2 big nations, when the turns will take some 1-2 hours each + Game Saturn taking also about ~1h to play. Furthermore Lord Parkin should really be playing his turns at this point, when the most intresting part has started. Could we pause the game until LP comes back or at least until I can discuss with him. i would also like to suggest that we raise the timer to 36-40 hours so that proper turn order would be easier to maintain.

 

[Toch]

my Civ PC is crashed i need 2days to fix it please stop the game....

 

[Joshua368]

Yeah, I completely agree, Parkin will want to be in control of his own civ during this part of the game. Plus it gives Clamburger a chance to return as well, he should probably be in control of his own civ.

So someone who won't break turn order needs to go in and pause it. That would be Plako or Elkad. How many days until Parkin returns? I have no idea when Clamburger gets back, it was a two week camp but I forget when he left.

Also I'm fine with the idea of a 36 turn order. Soon it seems likely every member of the alliance will be at war with at least most of the other, so perhaps the war turn order should simply be

1. Saturn Alliance (aka island civs)
2. Supercontinent Alliance (this is what we call you, unless you have your own name )

Though we can wait until all members are involved to implement that... Maybe a 48-hour turn limit (40 to compensate for pitboss slowness) would be more fair, and after the first 24 hours if an island civ hasn't finish his turn, his turn is "skipped".