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Team Pitboss Game

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by RegentMan, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    wow there are some interesting twists I read here on the last page....

    I know it could come as insulting to some of players, but I really enjoyed reading the long posts and kinda amused me...

    I played tons of competitive games in the past (and plan to do more in the near future) and trust me... I've seen worse.
     
  2. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    Cal asked me for opinion as experienced pitbosser on the whole matter and here is what I have to say. All which follows is my own opinion and experience and is not binding to anyone by any means. Everyone reads or comments, get offended or gets proud on his own will. Beware, wall of text inside the spoiler: :D
    Spoiler :

    Playing 3 nations in semi-secret is always a recipe for potential disaster - sour feelings and personal conflicts. I've seen this many times already. I myself has been subbing for nations for long periods - like 10-20 turns, but it was always clear it is only a temp thing and if it was looking like the original player will not return, it is your duty to report to everyone and ask what is to be done or either find a sub for THIS NATION or to put the nation to AI. But playing a nation to benefit from it and not helping improving the playability of this nation so the original player to want to return or a possible sub to be found (like in your case giving them unit so you dont pay maintenance, taking away their money for no clear reason to fuel your own nation, not teching for this nation, etc), this is terrible unfair thing to do. I subbed for OzzyKP - admin at Apolyton in "Destiny of Empires" pitboss and had won him a World War which he was losing badly (he was the score leader and got dogpiled by 3 other nations) and got back under his control almost all of his cities which he was lost during that said war (he had lost like more than half his cities initially and despaired) and got his enemies to pay him money reparations, where I asked nothing for myself, despite my original nation and Sommers fought damn hard to help Ozzy's nation revival happen. Once Ozzy saw his nation is winning the war and he is getting in actually better condition than he was when he left, he returned and played his nation until the very end of the game. This is how you sub for a nation. Not to keep them in the dark ages and fund yourself. Another case is Gods and Heroes pitboss where I subbed for MZprox his nation where he was dogpiled by 3 nations. He asked me to sub for him while he was on vacation, but incidentally or not, it happened at the same time he understood he wont win the game because of this dogpile. He fend off one of the nations and asked me to sub for him initially until he return from vacation, giving me instructions how to play and what goals to achieve. And even my primary nation was in war with him at this time, but I was not 1 of those dogpillers, I was on my own. I of course did not sent anything at his way from my own nation as I felt that would be absolutely not appropriate. So I played for him. Managed to force his enemies to drop one by one, beating their armies, taking back his cities until he was in the position he was before the war begins. Then I asked him again to come and play his nation, but he said he have RL chores, etc, etc, but it sounded to me he is not happy with being not anymore top dog. I went ahead and actually attacked one of his enemies and managed to get quite a chunk of nice cities and land from him and making him swear allegiance to MZ's nation for peace. From this position I asked again MZ to return, as he was in even better shape than he left - he was having a game-long war with 1 neighbor, which I made an ally to him, then he had another ally on his other front and a soft victim to conquer on third front. MZ said he wont come back to the game and then I went and actively searched for sub for him. Dratboy took a look at MZ's civ, liked what I had done and took it and played it. He is around and can say if what I did for this nation was any good or not and if this nation looked as exploited and robbed. BTW in the very same G&H game, OzzyKP was semi-officially-permanent-subbing for one nation, and when the problem arise, he claimed that he did all in his power in a good faith to help that nation, but he was accused by MZ he is using his second civ to attack his main rival and slow him, while giving advantage to his own civ by transferring money - claimed for upgrades or something. Words were exchanged and beside all the swearing that it was all in good faith, it seems it was not enough and it lead to dropping out of the game for both involved - MZ and Ozzy. Later we found a sub for this civ and all was good.

    So, this is how you sub. You make in good faith everything possible to help that civ, even if it is against your civ interests. Dick have no access here, but he told me he felt like robbed when he looked at his civ after he took it back. Cal showed me how you were sucking dry both civs under your control to fund yourself with money. But this was not enough. You were even having a gpt deal with one of them which was causing that said civ to go at strike and you to receive more money than this civ is actually capable of making. This itself is known exploit and cheat.

    Anyway, you can always say: "But I did everything in good faith". Well, you live and learn what is perceived as good faith and appropriate and what as the opposite. If you were knew Dick left the game, why you did not tried to find him a sub? Even once? Since when was the last time you heard from him? And if you were knowing he will return, is this the situation that you were thinking he will be happy to see his civ at after you took care of it? Running around with horse archers while he funds your Space Program research? Dont answer me, answer yourself.

    Whoever said that keeping Celtia under your control was maybe game-changing as other nation could have conquered it long ago and changed the balance of power is right. By defending Celtia you were defending your own interests, dont they to put it like: "Oh, look what good I did to Celtia keeping them alive", as if there was someone's interests serving best, that I think it was yours.

    Actually, you are right that vassal states must be always turned off. However, this did not stopped you from fully abusing this broken for MP with humans mechanism.

    So much for controlling more than 1 civ.

    As for saying: "I was going to win despite you guys break your NAP, but I just dont want to bother anymore", it sounds pathetic. I dont know the in-game situation well to judge, but if you really think you can win, I think you have more than enough competitiveness and lust for the win to try do it and then boast and mock your poor adversaries.

    LOL, you did that Maga? Well done, girl, that is a masterful move. Guys, you should be ashamed to have fallen for this. I already said somewhere in the team thread, but accepting deals with no clear end date of a clear way to end this is not a good practice.

    For breaking NAPs to avoid someone winning the game, I had such dilemma and my own decision back then was to keep my word even if this will mean I will lose the game. My personal conclusion and lesson learnt back then then was: "Think well before signing agreements"

    In conclusion, I must say that so much drama and melodramatic end in supposedly more-friendly pitboss (we are all a team after all, right?) surprises me and is not normal. Something was or went really wrong.
     
  3. Majic

    Majic Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    220
    Location:
    Boden, Sweden
    Lol, I'm glad I didn't have time to play this to the finish. Everything was great until I started doing diplo and got less time.

    No wonder diplo was frustrating when one player controls several civs. Imho even subbing another civ for a couple of turns without letting the rest of the players know is cheating. I know everyone play to try win and have their own view on what's considered ok, but this makes the game unfair on a moral level. The only way to prevent this is sadly to make a long list of what is allowed and what is not. This is not what most (new) players care about when starting a game, they just want to start playing and having fun. Also, if you make a long list of rules, there is always something missing, which some players take advantage of and some players think obviously shouldn't be allowed.

    Rules are necessary most times to keep players from feeling cheated on throughout a game. It is hard to put rules on diplo tho.
     
  4. dratboy

    dratboy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    Fredericton, Canada
    Lesson learned for sure... :blush:

    True. On the other hand, I don't think this situation is so cut and dry. When I wrote my plea to Maga to keep playing, I purposely left out one tidbit because I didn't want to throw fuel on the fire and honestly wanted her to keep playing, but since it's over now, I don't mind sharing. It is my belief that Maga was actually the first to break our NAP. Majic and Maga's original NAP (which was very long-reaching and would actually still be in effect, regardless of the extension I signed to it, and it WAS understood to be an extension, not a wholly new arrangement) explicity stated that neither would help an enemy wage war against the other, be it open borders for troops, intelligence reports, or outright unit gifting. But, again, Slaze revealed to me just recently that his invasion of Majic (later me) was indeed a collaberation between he and Maga, complete with full intelligence reports of Majic's cities and constant turn by turn feedback of troop movements and defense capabilities.

    Anyway, it sounds like I'm making excuses... I guess what I'm really trying to say is, I thought this was the kind of game Maga wanted to play. Fast-talking wheeling and dealing, treachery, playing one party off the other, the skullduggery. It was diplomatic wizardry at its finest and all very murky and sketchy. Heck, she even invited me to conquer Dick's lands on several occasions and assured me she wouldn't lift one finger to help him! So Maga's reaction to a backstab honestly caught me off guard. I thought she'd come on here and basically say, "Too late! You discovered that I bamboozled both of you, but the space race is mine! Go ahead and try and stop me, the damage is done! I'm the winner mwa ha ha!" I feel all out of sorts. I clearly misread this whole situation...

    Shoot, I wasn't supposed to debate. I'll stop talking now.
     
  5. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
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    33,262
    Location:
    Perth,Western Australia
    I am just wondering how we can trust Maga after this?
     
  6. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    655
    I'll give my full rant after the game is officially finished. For now, I just have to say I'm not very happy that single player has played multiple civs without full disclosure.

    Do we still intend to play the game to the end even with the recent turn of events?
     
  7. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,884
    Location:
    Arendal, Norway
    She is no longer playing in this game, and I think it's safe to say she will not be returning either. So that's not an issue any longer. If she participates in other games, let's just hope she learned something from this game. I suspect people will be wary with making deals with her though.
     
  8. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    Washington State
    Wow. What a read!
     
  9. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    So are we going to call this one and start a new one? Find replacements for Maga and resume playing?
     
  10. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
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    as an outsider I would say it would be better to start new one... the harm (1 player playing 3 civs) was already done
     
  11. slaze

    slaze Deity

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    Nov 17, 2006
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    Location:
    california
    Cav, Ai & Drat, I'll keep going if you wanna keep going. And I'll quit if you wanna quit
     
  12. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    655
    I paused the game until we've decided what to do with this. Honestly, I'm pretty torn on what to do with this game. The game has been really interesting to me so far. And I was enjoying the exciting situation we had in the game. However, I'm not sure if it is worth continuing. In my books running several civs in secret is wrong in any case. If there is any attempt to boost one of the civs in expense it's blatant cheating. In light of this, IMHO, any resolution that this game can have could end up feeling hollow at this point.

    If everyone else wants to continue I will of course keep playing. I wouldn't mind too much ending this game and starting a new one, though.
     
  13. dratboy

    dratboy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
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    Location:
    Fredericton, Canada
    yeah, because of negligence on Maga's part, Bowsling's civ was eliminated, and the same thing could happen to Dick by me. So that does give us an unfair advantage over Aivo-Cav. You guys should probably have the final say for sure.

    I'd be up for a new game. Perhaps a quicker speed/advanced start/modern tech? We'd want to finish before the isdg was over...

    On the other hand, could we leave the old game running for a few turns while we work out the new set up? Stopping that space ship victory would be super satisfying.
     
  14. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    1,884
    Location:
    Arendal, Norway
    Running a new game is not a problem, but I would prefer to just run one intrateam game since I am running 4 pitbosses at the moment.

    I might even join in of you guys decide to start a new one. But I suggest a smaller map. This map was huge, and it takes a long time to play it. :)

    Edit: I'm sure I could leave this one running for another 5-10 turns on port 2070 if you guys really want that.
     
  15. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    I share Aivo's sentiments and I would be ok letting this game end and starting a new one.
     
  16. dratboy

    dratboy Chieftain

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    Location:
    Fredericton, Canada
    4 games! :eek:. Forget I suggested it. Give yourself a break and shut this one down, Caledorn. :) I don't need to beat up :scan: Maga that much. :lol:
     
  17. slaze

    slaze Deity

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    Nov 17, 2006
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    california
    Lets end it then. I really agree with Ai. There's really no resolution to give it a proper fix. If we boot maga to ai and let me destroy her its not fair to cav/Ai. If we find a sub then the maga civ still keeps all the perks gained while parasiting the other civs.

    Don't know that I'm up for a new one, though. Thinking its time to retire.
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
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    5,663
    Location:
    Plovdiv, BG
    I finished 1-2 pitbosses recently and another 2 are about to finish soon as it seems, so I might join the new intra-team pitboss if it is quick speed / medium sized map (6-8 cities per civ).
     
  19. Arkipeller

    Arkipeller Ancient of Lore

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Sandnes, Norway
    Me too
     
  20. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

    Joined:
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    1,884
    Location:
    Arendal, Norway
    I am not loading up this game now that I have the new server installed. My gut feeling is that you guys would rather start a new game than continue this one, but should you decide otherwise I have the savegames etc lying around so I can load it up if you want me to.

    If you guys want to play another game, then post your interest here. When there is enough players I will create a new thread (so that I have access to modify post #1) for the new game, and we can get things organised. I can ask the experienced mapmakers over at RB to make a decent map for us if we'd like to play on a balanced map :)
     

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