Game Settings Discussion Thread

[Sommerswerd]

I was gonna say 2c has been deleted, but NVM, best we just send the version that is already publicly published while we work on the revision

 

[talonschild]

Indeed. Looks like Bowsling has the already-submitted ruleset translation under control (mostly ), so I'll do the revised one.

 

[vranasm]

well as I said...my lack of MP experience hurts me in this discussion, but do I understand it right that double moves of settlers, great persons are allowed?

in some sullla's report I saw him claiming they abused it a bit against the will of other teams and it bring bad blood.

I think he used at some point great merchant double move to get good money form someone who definitely would not allow this under normal circumstance.

 

[DaveShack]

I can do a Spanish translation, or more properly said I can read it well enough to verify a machine translation. But I'd need a current version of the proposal, having trouble telling which is the latest.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I can do a Spanish translation, or more properly said I can read it well enough to verify a machine translation. But I'd need a current version of the proposal, having trouble telling which is the latest.

The version being translated for the other sites is the original version, because that is the one being discussed on the public Forum. Here is the Original Version.

Also, Here it is in a spoiler

Spoiler :

01. Rule Breaking

When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded to the closest previous point that undoes the rule violation. The host can reload immediately when the breaking of a rule is obvious to everyone involved. If it's not obvious to everyone, or there is a disagreement over whether a rule was broken, the game will be paused, for an admin to decide.

02. Wartime Double Moves

a. Civilizations that are at war must observe turn order. Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

b. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer.

c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, espionage missions, rebuilding improvements, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

03. Rule Change Procedure

a. When the game has started, rules can only be changed if the Teams unanimously agree to change the rules, or the Admin determines that a rule change is needed.

04. Out of Game Actions

a. Team Espionage -All external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams are not allowed. Example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

b. Game / Pitboss / Save Manipulation or Disruption - Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Intentionally disrupting access to the Pitboss host server is not allowed. Intentionally opening Diplomacy screens and then pausing, intending to lock teams out of playing their turn is not allowed.

c. Teams making diplomatic contact before they have met in-game is not allowed.

05. In Game Actions

a. Suicide Training - Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is not allowed.

b. City Gifting - Conquest, culture flip, UN resolution, and AP resolution are the only permitted methods of city transfer.

c. Unit Gifting - Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 4 to teams who have not built the Heroic Epic and cannot currently do so is not allowed. Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 6 to teams who have not built West Point and cannot currently do so is not allowed.

06. Administration

a. Pausing - Any Team may pause the game. Any Team may unpause the game. If a Team needs the game to stay paused, they must post in the turn-tracker thread. 72 hours after such a post is made, any team may un-pause the game. If the Admin determines a team is abusing pauses he may suspend or otherwise restrict a teams right to pause the game.

b. Game Administrator - r_rolo1 has sole authority as game administrator. Alternate and/or replacement administrators must be agreed to by all teams.

c. Bugs - The use of any bug is not allowed. Examples include, but are not limited to, Free Tech Bug, Unlimited Gold Bug etc. The decision about exactly what constitutes a bug rests solely with the admin. Consult with the admin if any action you are considering may be a bug.

d. Defeated Teams -Player on teams that are eliminated are permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

We still need a German version... Anyone heard from Calis?

 

[YossarianLives]

I can do a Spanish translation, or more properly said I can read it well enough to verify a machine translation. But I'd need a current version of the proposal, having trouble telling which is the latest.

Cool! I was trying to do a Spanish translation myself but was struggling along (my conversational skills haven't given me much insight into translating civ lingo). If I don't see anything posted by the time I get home tonight, I can post what I have worked on so far, and maybe the two of us can go from there.

 

[Aivoturso]

This sabotage/bombardment thing seems to be completely blown out of proportions. How about we give a bit of slack in this issue? I have a compromise suggestion.

The root of sabotage/bombardment disagreement seems to be unfair advantage that the second player gets over the first player when in war. Although it is possible to counter the espionage and bombardment, it is not certain and costs quite much. On the other hand, if the first player would be the one to employ bombardment or sabotage, all the second player needs to have is enough workers. That got me thinking. Alterantive solution to nerfing the second player attacks, would be nerfing the second player defence to make the situation fairer. Solution is simple: No rebuilding lost improvements in turn they are lost. This way also second player is subject to losing strategic resources. And breaking the rule is also way easier to spot. Admittedly, situation is not completely level, as second player still gets the resource every other turn, given enough workers. However, this would still require second player to build up other defences but just enough workers.

 

[Caledorn]

The rules probably needs something to prohibit being constantly logged in to avoid war. See the last post in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11584537#post11584537

 

[YossarianLives]

Hi DaveShack, here's what I have for the Spanish translation. Want to take a look and correct/revise as needed?

Spoiler :

01. Violaciones de las reglas

Cuando un equipo quebra alguna de las reglas, el juego se volverá a el punto más cercano anterior, que se deshace la violación de las reglas. El hueste puede regresar el juego inmediatamente si es obvio que alguien quebro una regla. Si no es obvio para todos, o si hay un desacuerdo, vamos hacer una pausa, por un administrador para decidir.

02. Doublemoves durante guerras

a. Las civilizaciones que están en guerra deben observar el orden de turno. El orden de turno se fija automáticamente con el Mod APT en el primer turno de la guerra. Sin embargo, los equipos también deben respetar el orden de turno en el turno inmediatamente anterior a la primera turno de la guerra. Así que si el agresor jugó después del defensor en el turno antes que la guerra comienza, en el próximo turno, el agresor debe dejar que el defensor juega antes de que pueda declarar la guerra a él. Si el agresor desea jugar primero durante la guerra, él debe jugar primero en el turno anterior al comienzo de la guerra. Si el agresor juega antes del defensor sin acabar su turno, siempre puede esperar hasta después de que el defensor se mueve para declarar la guerra si la intención es estar en segundo lugar en la guerra.

b. Cuando otros jugadores entran en una guerra que ya comenzó, se debe tener cuidado para jugar en el parte correcta del turno, para que el Mod automáticamente los coloca en el lado apropiado del turno.

c. No se permiten Doublemoves en tiempos de guerra.

d. Todas las movimientos de soldados y otras acciones, incluyendo dando promociones, bombardeando, sabotaje, usando esclavitud, el servicio militar obligatorio (drafting), el pillaje, las misiones de espionaje, la reconstrucción de granjas, minas, etc, están totalmente permitidos durante su parte del turno. Ventajas y desventajas de ser el primero o el último en el orden de turno son las consideraciones estratégicas cuando declara o continúa una guerra.

03. Procedimiento de una regla

a. Cuando el juego ha comenzado, las normas sólo se puede cambiar si los equipos están de acuerdo por unanimidad para cambiar las reglas, o el administrador determina que un cambio en las reglas es necesario.

04. Acciones fuera del juego

a. Espionaje-Todas las formas externas de recolección de inteligencia contra los equipos contrarios no están permitidos. Ejemplo: Entrando al fórum de otro equipo, uniéndose a varios equipos con distintas cuentas, solicitando información de otros jugadores, mirando el base de datos de imágenes de CFC (o un sitio web 3 ª parte) para imágenes y save uploads, o cualquier otra cosa considerada como espionaje deliberada no se tolera, y se reprime severamente.

b. Manipulación o alteración del Juego / Pitboss / Salve - Editar el archivo de salve (con o sin utilidad) no está permitido. Interrumpir intencionalmente el acceso al servidor host Pitboss no está permitido. Intencionalmente abriendo la pantalla de Diplomacia y luego haciendo una pausa, con la intención de no dejar los otros equipos jugar su turno, no está permitido.

c. No pueden hacer contactos diplomáticos con otros equipos antes de que se han reunido en el juego.

05. Acciones dentro del juego

a. Entrenamiento Suicidio - Sacrificar una unidad a un aliado para obtener puntos de experiencia para la unidad victoriosa no está permitido.

b. Regalando Ciudades - No se puede regalar una ciudad a su aliado. Conquista, ganando una ciudad con su cultura, resolución de la ONU, y la resolución del AP son los únicos métodos permitidos de transferencia de la ciudad.

c. Regalando Soldados – No es permitido regalar un soldado con la experiencia necesaria para promover al nivel 4 a los equipos que no han construido la epopeya heroica (Heroic Epic). Tampoco es permitido regalar un soldado con la experiencia necesaria para promover al nivel 6 a los equipos que no han construido West Point.

06. Administración

a. Pausas - Cualquier equipo puede pausar el juego. Cualquier equipo puede reanudar (unpause) el juego. Si un equipo necesita que el juego se mantenga en pausa, se debe publicar en el turn-tracker thread. 72 horas después de que se hace esa solicitud, cualquier equipo puede reanudar (unpause) el juego. Si la administración determina que un equipo está abusando las pausas, puede suspender o limitar de alguna forma el derecho de ese equipo de detener el juego.

b. Administrador del Juego - r_rolo1 es la única autoridad como administrador del juego. Todos los equipos deben estar de acuerdo para añadir administradores alternativas y / o de reemplazo.

c. Errores (Bugs) - El uso de cualquier error (bug) no está permitido. Los ejemplos incluyen, pero no se limitan a, ganar tecnologías gratis (Free Tech Bug), ganar oro ilimitado (Unlimited Gold Bug), etc. La decisión acerca de qué constituye exactamente un error reside únicamente en el administrador. Consulte con el administrador si cualquier acción que usted está considerando puede ser un error.

d. Equipos Derrotados- Jugadores de los equipos que sean eliminados se les permite unirse a otro equipo. Estos "refugiados" no pueden participar en actividades de espionaje por la presentación de información sobre su nuevo equipo a cualquier otro equipo.

Edit: I have a few questions. Who is responsible for getting the translations to the other teams, how will we do so, and are we breaking our own "no diplo before in game contact" rule? Would it be best to post the translations for all to see in the settings thread?

 

[talonschild]

That would be best, methinks.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yeah, the whole time I assumed we would email them for some reason. It wasn't until I was writing that sentence that it occurred to me that we could just post it in the public settings thread.

 

[Sommerswerd]

This sabotage/bombardment thing seems to be completely blown out of proportions. How about we give a bit of slack in this issue? I have a compromise suggestion.

The root of sabotage/bombardment disagreement seems to be unfair advantage that the second player gets over the first player when in war. Although it is possible to counter the espionage and bombardment, it is not certain and costs quite much. On the other hand, if the first player would be the one to employ bombardment or sabotage, all the second player needs to have is enough workers. That got me thinking. Alterantive solution to nerfing the second player attacks, would be nerfing the second player defence to make the situation fairer. Solution is simple: No rebuilding lost improvements in turn they are lost. This way also second player is subject to losing strategic resources. And breaking the rule is also way easier to spot. Admittedly, situation is not completely level, as second player still gets the resource every other turn, given enough workers. However, this would still require second player to build up other defences but just enough workers.

The true issue that this does not address, and frankly that no solution aimed at making the resource denial thing "fair" to both sides, is that resource denial is an advantage that Second move enjoys in the face of the numerous advantages that First move enjoys. If we "balance things out" by removing Second move advantage, we have effectively created a more lopsided advantage for first move. Like for example, First move gets to heal-attack Second moves wounded units before they heal.

And as far as "giving slack" goes... I am not fooled by their whining over this. Understand clearly what is going on. They have concluded that we are running an EE and are trying to set the rules in opposition to an EE as much as possible to neutralize us before the game even starts. We don't need to give them any slack on that (handicapping the game against us) We should oppose that for all we're worth.

Hi DaveShack, here's what I have for the Spanish translation. Want to take a look and correct/revise as needed?

Spoiler :

01. Violaciones de las reglas

Cuando un equipo quebra alguna de las reglas, el juego se volverá a el punto más cercano anterior, que se deshace la violación de las reglas. El hueste puede regresar el juego inmediatamente si es obvio que alguien quebro una regla. Si no es obvio para todos, o si hay un desacuerdo, vamos hacer una pausa, por un administrador para decidir.

02. Doublemoves durante guerras

a. Las civilizaciones que están en guerra deben observar el orden de turno. El orden de turno se fija automáticamente con el Mod APT en el primer turno de la guerra. Sin embargo, los equipos también deben respetar el orden de turno en el turno inmediatamente anterior a la primera turno de la guerra. Así que si el agresor jugó después del defensor en el turno antes que la guerra comienza, en el próximo turno, el agresor debe dejar que el defensor juega antes de que pueda declarar la guerra a él. Si el agresor desea jugar primero durante la guerra, él debe jugar primero en el turno anterior al comienzo de la guerra. Si el agresor juega antes del defensor sin acabar su turno, siempre puede esperar hasta después de que el defensor se mueve para declarar la guerra si la intención es estar en segundo lugar en la guerra.

b. Cuando otros jugadores entran en una guerra que ya comenzó, se debe tener cuidado para jugar en el parte correcta del turno, para que el Mod automáticamente los coloca en el lado apropiado del turno.

c. No se permiten Doublemoves en tiempos de guerra.

d. Todas las movimientos de soldados y otras acciones, incluyendo dando promociones, bombardeando, sabotaje, usando esclavitud, el servicio militar obligatorio (drafting), el pillaje, las misiones de espionaje, la reconstrucción de granjas, minas, etc, están totalmente permitidos durante su parte del turno. Ventajas y desventajas de ser el primero o el último en el orden de turno son las consideraciones estratégicas cuando declara o continúa una guerra.

03. Procedimiento de una regla

a. Cuando el juego ha comenzado, las normas sólo se puede cambiar si los equipos están de acuerdo por unanimidad para cambiar las reglas, o el administrador determina que un cambio en las reglas es necesario.

04. Acciones fuera del juego

a. Espionaje-Todas las formas externas de recolección de inteligencia contra los equipos contrarios no están permitidos. Ejemplo: Entrando al fórum de otro equipo, uniéndose a varios equipos con distintas cuentas, solicitando información de otros jugadores, mirando el base de datos de imágenes de CFC (o un sitio web 3 ª parte) para imágenes y save uploads, o cualquier otra cosa considerada como espionaje deliberada no se tolera, y se reprime severamente.

b. Manipulación o alteración del Juego / Pitboss / Salve - Editar el archivo de salve (con o sin utilidad) no está permitido. Interrumpir intencionalmente el acceso al servidor host Pitboss no está permitido. Intencionalmente abriendo la pantalla de Diplomacia y luego haciendo una pausa, con la intención de no dejar los otros equipos jugar su turno, no está permitido.

c. No pueden hacer contactos diplomáticos con otros equipos antes de que se han reunido en el juego.

05. Acciones dentro del juego

a. Entrenamiento Suicidio - Sacrificar una unidad a un aliado para obtener puntos de experiencia para la unidad victoriosa no está permitido.

b. Regalando Ciudades - No se puede regalar una ciudad a su aliado. Conquista, ganando una ciudad con su cultura, resolución de la ONU, y la resolución del AP son los únicos métodos permitidos de transferencia de la ciudad.

c. Regalando Soldados – No es permitido regalar un soldado con la experiencia necesaria para promover al nivel 4 a los equipos que no han construido la epopeya heroica (Heroic Epic). Tampoco es permitido regalar un soldado con la experiencia necesaria para promover al nivel 6 a los equipos que no han construido West Point.

06. Administración

a. Pausas - Cualquier equipo puede pausar el juego. Cualquier equipo puede reanudar (unpause) el juego. Si un equipo necesita que el juego se mantenga en pausa, se debe publicar en el turn-tracker thread. 72 horas después de que se hace esa solicitud, cualquier equipo puede reanudar (unpause) el juego. Si la administración determina que un equipo está abusando las pausas, puede suspender o limitar de alguna forma el derecho de ese equipo de detener el juego.

b. Administrador del Juego - r_rolo1 es la única autoridad como administrador del juego. Todos los equipos deben estar de acuerdo para añadir administradores alternativas y / o de reemplazo.

c. Errores (Bugs) - El uso de cualquier error (bug) no está permitido. Los ejemplos incluyen, pero no se limitan a, ganar tecnologías gratis (Free Tech Bug), ganar oro ilimitado (Unlimited Gold Bug), etc. La decisión acerca de qué constituye exactamente un error reside únicamente en el administrador. Consulte con el administrador si cualquier acción que usted está considerando puede ser un error.

d. Equipos Derrotados- Jugadores de los equipos que sean eliminados se les permite unirse a otro equipo. Estos "refugiados" no pueden participar en actividades de espionaje por la presentación de información sobre su nuevo equipo a cualquier otro equipo.

Edit: I have a few questions. Who is responsible for getting the translations to the other teams, how will we do so, and are we breaking our own "no diplo before in game contact" rule? Would it be best to post the translations for all to see in the settings thread?

I would say send a PM to the team Captain/spokesperson. with the ruleset. The ruleset is already posted in English. PMing the exact same ruleset in Spanish isnt doing anything wrong.

That's my opinon obviously... I wont oppose anyone posting it in Spanish publicly, I just forsee needless arguments over the translation from English speaking teams (I wont say any names) as an attempt to undermine our efforts. Better to just sent it to the actual foreign language sites and let the true experts tell us if the translation is flawed.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The rules probably needs something to prohibit being constantly logged in to avoid war. See the last post in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11584537#post11584537

What I suggest is asking them (Spanish Poly) to provide the rules the usually use to play with their Mod. What they have is probably better than anything we could come up with.

That note could go alongside the Ruleset PMs Have these gone out yet to the teams? If not, they should go right away.

On another note: I am thinking WPC is agonizing over whether to go EE (with Sumeria) or Rush (with Persia/Mali)

 

[DaveShack]

The Spanish translation looks pretty accurate, to the extent of my understanding.

There may be idioms which should not be translated literally and would thus be laughable to a native speaker. I'm not going to be able to catch that kind of stuff.

 

[plako]

This exactly same message has been sent to both RB and CFC private team forums and is directed to both of the teams. I hope you don't mind me trying to act as an arbitrator.

I'm worried about the quite high level of distrust that will affect to the diplomacy in game unless you both make active effort so that it would not. You're both overthinking the motives of the other team and there are lot of misunderstandings. I suggest you give other team benefit of doubt. You both deserve it.

Now you should just concentrate on getting a good rule set that is the final obstacle in getting this game running. Do not to intimidate or be intimidated. All snarky remarks and humorous comments concerning other team and their members should be left out. It would be good, if you both start acting with 1 voice only in the public threads and all personal opinions are handled in private forums. Don’t open up subjects that have already been decided (e.g. game settings). Settings are final and there is really no need to try to persuade others to change their mind or keep commenting them negatively.

Concerning rules you seem to agree most of them. There are just few real differences of opinions there. If you accept my position as temporary administrator, I could try to generate a rule set proposal that contains or agreed parts and makes a suggestion concerning the non-agreed ones. Then we could concentrate on those that are still controversial. If compromises are not found, they're settled via voting.

 

[Majic]

I agree, let's get on with the game.

 

[2metraninja]

My true desire is we to have the absolute minimum of artificial rules. Making a special rule about tactic, which second-in-turn team can eventually try to abuse is over-complicating things in my book. Being over-insisting on this implies those teams will be well and alive till this time, that they will have this resource at first time, other work-arounds cant be found at all and then the whole fate of the game will rely upon the successful forging a rule that makes this specific tactic not so unbeatable as 1 out of 9 teams believe it is. And why?

 

[tobiasn]

I'm 100% in agreement with Plako here. I too am worried that all the old greif and mistrust that you show for each other is going to hurt us in the long run. So, sorry for being quite blunt in the public forum, but for a new guy like me, the debate started to be ridiculous.

Not because there's not a factual disagreement that needs to be adressed - because of all the snarky stabs at each other. We have presented our arguments - with flair too, grant and dave esp has made some excellent points without getting personal. We're not winning anyone else over now. So it's time to move on.

If you trust me enough, I can take over as the official voice of CFC in this matter (and this matter only) - but I think whoever speaks for us from now on will need to be calm and civil and rise above the ad hominems.

 

[grant2004]

I'm going to be away for a few days, but I had one last thought on this sabotage/bombardment issue. We've mentioned in passing that there are both 1st move and 2nd move advantages in this game, but I haven't seen those spelled out in full (at least not in a single post). If our team could produce a list of all of these issues related to having the turn timer split, I think it would make some of our arguments more clear to the other teams. First that there are too many issues to have a rule correcting all of them, and second that because of the large number of issues that affect both sides, balance is best addressed by not writing rules for any individual issues.

 

[YossarianLives]

I would say send a PM to the team Captain/spokesperson. with the ruleset. The ruleset is already posted in English. PMing the exact same ruleset in Spanish isnt doing anything wrong.

That's my opinon obviously... I wont oppose anyone posting it in Spanish publicly, I just forsee needless arguments over the translation from English speaking teams (I wont say any names) as an attempt to undermine our efforts. Better to just sent it to the actual foreign language sites and let the true experts tell us if the translation is flawed.

My preference would be posting the translation publicly. Maybe putting both French and Spanish translations in one post, with a message saying that we're trying to make it easier for them to join the discussion, and apologizing to the Germans for not having a translation for them (though I'm sure someone on their 80+member team speaks English well enough to translate for themselves). I'll go with whatever the team decides, though.

If you trust me enough, I can take over as the official voice of CFC in this matter (and this matter only) - but I think whoever speaks for us from now on will need to be calm and civil and rise above the ad hominems.

I think Sommers has been doing a good job of defending our position and getting our points across. However, putting a new face as the cfc rep on this issue might help cool some heads on other teams, and let us move forward to a vote and finalizing these rules so we can get the game started! Of course, WPC's issues are going to delay things regardless, so I guess we're not in too much of a hurry.