Game Settings Discussion Thread

[talonschild]

Right. Okay. Cool.

 

[2metraninja]

Many things are not covered in here, despite it is quite over-detailised. Why would anyone in his healthy mind declare a war to an ally to just kill like 10-20-30 axemans in the next 10-15 turns to get experience, while he will lose 100's of trade because of the "We had long peace" or whatever is the modifier? Have you ever by mistake declared a war to an ally to see how 400-500-600 GPT are gone like magic?

And here despite the heavy debating, nothing is said how we rule the second-half timer blockades or bombing or espionage missions? How we deal with the "free" half timer of no-counter-espionage" each 10 turns? How we deal with intentionally closing borders to make whole armies fly half the world when being expelled? Those are just few things that came to my mind. And I have terrible headache and chronic non-sleeping lately.

 

[vranasm]

this one you will have to iron out without me, since basically...I don't understand a word :-D and no time to learn new language ;-)

will try to help the team with economics of civilization since that should be the same on SP as in MP

 

[Sommerswerd]

@ 2metra - Are you talking about the first proposals or our proposal? Because I thought about those things...

02. Wartime Double Moves

...

c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, espionage missions, rebuilding improvements, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

What I find so funny (haha funny not sinister funny ) is that LP left out the blockade stuff, because he likes to use that tactic. I don't think it was intentional or nefarious at all, just selective/biased thinking (which we all do as human beings). You naturally think the tactics you like to use are fine and dandy and fair even though others regard them as unfair exploits, and simultaneously, you regard the tactics that others like to use but you dont as OP, unfair, unfun, exploits etc

Anyway my approach as I said before is to treat all the different advantages of being first or last in the turn order as strategic concerns, rather than trying to make a bunch of rules regulating everything. If you want to benefit from the counter-espy window, slave-attack advantage, promote then attack wounded advantage, and any other benefits from being first in the turn, then attack first in the turn. If you want to benefit from end of turn sabotages/blockades/pillages etc, drafting counterattacks on wounded units, etc... then attack second. If you dont want to be attacked and put at the mercy of an enemies choice, then be strong (or diplomatic) enough that no one attacks you. No one DoWed AMAZON or CDZ all game in the last game.

 

[talonschild]

Holy bajeezus have we made them suspicious of us with Mansa.

 

[Caledorn]

No one DoWed AMAZON or CDZ all game in the last game.

I vaguely remember that Merlot were the ones that DoW'ed AMAZON?

In regards to the suspicions in the public part of the forum, I find it a bit fun that the other teams believe Sommers is our Despotic Mad Leader who makes all decisions for us, and has forced us all into submission. At the very least that is most certainly what they imply. I am nearly tempted to write something along the lines of "Excuse me - but why are you all implying that Sommerswerd is the person who will decide how Team CFC plays?"

 

[Sommerswerd]

It's funny because DNK's comments state openly what my suspicion was from the beginning. LP's ruleset is obviously an anti Espionage ruleset. They are trying to create rules that weaken what they percieve to our Team strengths/strategy Hopefully folks are starting to see what I was saying before about partisanship

Actually its pretty funny eh 2metra? cavscout? Finally being on a team that is feared/respected enough that they are trying to make rules to nerf you

 

[Sommerswerd]

I vaguely remember that Merlot were the ones that DoW'ed AMAZON?

In regards to the suspicions in the public part of the forum, I find it a bit fun that the other teams believe Sommers is our Despotic Mad Leader who makes all decisions for us, and has forced us all into submission. At the very least that is most certainly what they imply. I am nearly tempted to write something along the lines of "Excuse me - but why are you all implying that Sommerswerd is the person who will decide how Team CFC plays?"

Yes I stand corrected. Merlot DoWed the crap out of us and killed our scout. Good catch

And your second point is exactly how I felt too. I wrote a really long response to it, but it got erased and I didn't feel like retyping. I don't know if it helps or hurts our overall strategy that some have apparently bit down hard on the bait "CFC is going to run the patented Sommerswerd EE strategy! Alert alert! Danger danger! "

 

[vranasm]

I would leave their thoughts to them... no reason to reveal our true strength...

if they want to believe they stand against 1 person aiming for EE...just leave them at that.

We will decide our economy based on the map, but why to reveal that now?

 

[Caledorn]

Yes I stand corrected. Merlot DoWed the crap out of us and killed our scout. Good catch

And your second point is exactly how I felt too. I wrote a really long response to it, but it got erased and I didn't feel like retyping. I don't know if it helps or hurts our overall strategy that some have apparently bit down hard on the "CFC is going to run the patented Sommerswerd EE strategy! Alert alert! Danger danger! "

The dead scout taught you all a lesson!! I'm certain you all cowered in fear of the mighty Merlot military machine!

More seriously though, I am as uncertain as you are whether or not this benefits us or hinders us. I think we should consider carefully whether or not we should denounce this bs from the other teams.. And if we should denounce it we need to discuss how we do it, to do it properly.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[Caledorn]

Very well done, guys, in the public thread!

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[2metraninja]

@ 2metra - Are you talking about the first proposals or our proposal? Because I thought about those things...
Quote:
02. Wartime Double Moves

...

c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, espionage missions, rebuilding improvements, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

Actually, I did not saw this I was too tired.

And strange enough, but you express exactly what I was thinking must be said: there are advantages of being first and there are advantages of being second and everyone must decide for himself . Well done.

 

[Sommerswerd]

@ talonschild & Calis (if you are lurking around )

We will greatly benefit by sending French, German, and Spanish translations of our ruleset to Civfr, Civforum.de and Spanish Apolyton. It is not fair that those who are not first language English don't get to participate in discussing the rules they will be bound to play by.

Also, I am biased , I admit, as I expect that the other site might be more receptive to a ruleset presented to them properly and respectfully in their primary language.

Can we do this soon? Can anyone translate to Spanish for Spanish Poly?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Thinking about pairing the ruleset down even more, so that it is more easily translated understood by other sites... Here is what I came up with. First here is our original ruleset:

Spoiler :

01. Rule Breaking

When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded to the closest previous point that undoes the rule violation. The host can reload immediately when the breaking of a rule is obvious to everyone involved. If it's not obvious to everyone, or there is a disagreement over whether a rule was broken, the game will be paused, for an admin to decide.

02. Wartime Double Moves

a. Civilizations that are at war must observe turn order. Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

b. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer.

c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, espionage missions, rebuilding improvements, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

03. Rule Change Procedure

a. When the game has started, rules can only be changed if the Teams unanimously agree to change the rules, or the Admin determines that a rule change is needed.

04. Out of Game Actions

a. Team Espionage -All external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams are not allowed. Example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

b. Game / Pitboss / Save Manipulation or Disruption - Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Intentionally disrupting access to the Pitboss host server is not allowed. Intentionally opening Diplomacy screens and then pausing, intending to lock teams out of playing their turn is not allowed.

c. Teams making diplomatic contact before they have met in-game is not allowed.

05. In Game Actions

a. Suicide Training - Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is not allowed.

b. City Gifting - Conquest, culture flip, UN resolution, and AP resolution are the only permitted methods of city transfer.

c. Unit Gifting - Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 4 to teams who have not built the Heroic Epic and cannot currently do so is not allowed. Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 6 to teams who have not built West Point and cannot currently do so is not allowed.

06. Administration

a. Pausing - Any Team may pause the game. Any Team may unpause the game. If a Team needs the game to stay paused, they must post in the turn-tracker thread. 72 hours after such a post is made, any team may un-pause the game. If the Admin determines a team is abusing pauses he may suspend or otherwise restrict a teams right to pause the game.

b. Game Administrator - r_rolo1 has sole authority as game administrator. Alternate and/or replacement administrators must be agreed to by all teams.

c. Bugs - The use of any bug is not allowed. Examples include, but are not limited to, Free Tech Bug, Unlimited Gold Bug etc. The decision about exactly what constitutes a bug rests solely with the admin. Consult with the admin if any action you are considering may be a bug.

d. Defeated Teams -Player on teams that are eliminated are permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

Now here is the ruleset with my notes In BOLD indicating why I think it can be taken out.

Spoiler :

01. Rule Breaking

When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded to the closest previous point that undoes the rule violation. The host can reload immediately when the breaking of a rule is obvious to everyone involved. If it's not obvious to everyone, or (The stuff I deleted is superfluous) there is a disagreement over whether a rule was broken, the game will be paused, for an admin to decide.

02. Wartime Double Moves

a. Civilizations that are at war must observe turn order. Obvious, duh) Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

b. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer.

c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, espionage missions, rebuilding improvements, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

03. Rule Change Procedure

a. When the game has started, rules can only be changed if the Teams unanimously agree to change the rules, or the Admin determines that a rule change is needed.

04. Out of Game Actions

a. Team Espionage -All external forms of intelligence gathering against opposing teams are not allowed. Example: Entering Team Forums, joining multiple teams using different accounts, actively petitioning other players for information, looking around on the CFC (or a 3rd party website) image database for screenshots and save uploads, or anything else deemed as deliberate espionage is not tolerated will be harshly dealt with.

b. Game / Pitboss / Save Manipulation or Disruption - Editing the save file (with or without a utility) is not allowed. Intentionally disrupting access to the Pitboss host server is not allowed. Intentionally opening Diplomacy screens and then pausing, intending to lock teams out of playing their turn is not allowed.

c. Teams making diplomatic contact before they have met in-game is not allowed. Everyone already knows all this stuff without making it a rule.

05. In Game Actions

a. Suicide Training - Knowingly sacrificing a unit to an ally in order to yield experience points to the victorious unit is not allowed. As 2metra points out, this practice does more harm than good, so if someone wants to waste his hammers and commerce to get som experience points let him.

b. City Gifting - Conquest, culture flip, UN resolution, and AP resolution are the only permitted methods of city transfer. This is already in the house rules. Putting it here is redundant

c. Unit Gifting - Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 4 to teams who have not built the Heroic Epic and cannot currently do so is not allowed. Gifting a unit with experience needed to promote to Level 6 build Heroic Epic or West Pointto teams who have not built Heroic Epic or West Point and cannot currently do so is not allowed.

06. Administration

a. Pausing - Any Team may pause the game. Any Team may unpause the game. If a Team needs the game to stay paused, they must post in the turn-tracker thread. 72 hours after such a post is made, any team may un-pause the game. If the Admin determines a team is abusing pauses he may suspend or otherwise restrict a teams right to pause the game.

b. Game Administrator - r_rolo1 has sole authority as game administrator. Alternate and/or replacement administrators must be agreed to by all teams. (I switched the a and b for better flow

c. Bugs - The use of any bug is not allowed. Examples include, but are not limited to, Free Tech Bug, Unlimited Gold Bug etc. The decision about exactly what constitutes a bug rests solely with the admin. Consult with the admin if any action you are considering may be a bug. The admin will, in his discretion, harshly punish anyone found in his judgment to be cheating, doing things to intentionally disrupt the game or acting in an obviously unsportsmanlike way.

d. Defeated Teams -Player on teams that are eliminated are permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

Here is the revised ruleset:

Spoiler :

01. Rule Breaking

1a. When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded. If there is a disagreement over whether a rule was broken, the game will be paused, for an admin to decide.

02. Wartime Double Moves

2a. Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

2b. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer.

2c. Non-Wartime Doublemoves are allowed.

2d. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, espionage missions, rebuilding improvements, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

03. Rule Change Procedure

3a. When the game has started, rules can only be changed if the Teams unanimously agree to change the rules, or the Admin determines that a rule change is needed.

04. In Game Actions

4a. Unit Gifting - Gifting a unit with experience needed to build Heroic Epic or West Point to teams who have not built Heroic Epic or West Point and cannot currently do so is not allowed.

05. Administration

5a. Game Administrator - r_rolo1 has sole authority as game administrator. Alternate and/or replacement administrators must be agreed to by all teams.

5b. Pausing - Any Team may pause the game. Any Team may unpause the game. If a Team needs the game to stay paused, they must post in the turn-tracker thread. 72 hours after such a post is made, any team may un-pause the game. If the Admin determines a team is abusing pauses he may suspend or otherwise restrict a teams right to pause the game.

5c. Bugs - The use of any bug is not allowed. Examples include, but are not limited to, Free Tech Bug, Unlimited Gold Bug etc. The decision about exactly what constitutes a bug rests solely with the admin. Consult with the admin if any action you are considering may be a bug. The admin will, in his discretion, harshly punish anyone found in his judgment to be cheating, doing things to intentionally disrupt the game or acting in an obviously unsportsmanlike way.

5d. Defeated Teams -Player on teams that are eliminated are permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

Thoughts?

 

[tobiasn]

I'd take out 2c cause it's not concerning "wartime". If it's even needed, I'd make it a new 2a, paired defining what a double move is and that it's only disallowed in war and the turn prior to declaring.

Ex: A double move is when a team performs actions right before and right after the turn switch, effectively making two turns without giving other teams time to react. Double moves are allowed in general, but are disallowed in wartime and in the turn immediately before declaring war.

I'd maybe take in this as a "catch all":

6) Fair play
If a team wants to consult the game Administrator whether a proposed move is an exploit, a bug or other examples of unfair play, the game is paused until the admin gives an answer.

If a team feels they have been treated unfairly or in any way has been the recieving end of an exploit or bug, they are free to consult with the game admin, and the game is paused until the admin gives an answer.

Edit: I see now that this is really an elaborate version of 01. Maybe just call the "01" "Fair play" - cause that's what the rules are about and is so much more positive -- and just include the two paragraphs over here into a new 01.

 

[Sommerswerd]

How about this?

Spoiler :

01. Rule Breaking

1a. When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded. If there is a disagreement over whether a rule was broken, the game will be paused, for an admin to decide.

02. Wartime Double Moves

2a. Turn order is automatically fixed by the APT Mod on the first turn of war. However, teams must also observe turn order on the turn immediately prior to the first turn of War. So if the Attacker (party Declaring War) played after the Defender (party who war is declared upon) in the turn before the war starts, then the Attacker must let the Defender play first in the next turn as well before he can declare war on him. If the Attacker wishes to have first to move during the War, he must move first in the turn prior to the beginning of the War. Attackers can always wait until after the Defender moves to login and declare war if they intend to move second in the War, regardless of whether they moved before or after the Defender in the prior turn.

2b. When other players come into a war in progress, they must be careful to play into the correct half of the turn, so that then the Mod automatically places them on the appropriate side of the turn timer.

2c. All unit/city actions that players can engage in, including, but not limited to, promotion, sabotage, bombing, slaving, drafting, pillaging, espionage missions, rebuilding improvements, etc, are fully allowed during that teams part of the turn. Advantages or disadvantages of being first or last in the turn order are strategic considerations when choosing to declare or continue a war.

03. Rule Change Procedure

3a. When the game has started, rules can only be changed if the Teams unanimously agree to change the rules, or the Admin determines that a rule change is needed.

04. In Game Actions

4a. Unit Gifting - Gifting a unit with experience needed to build Heroic Epic or West Point to teams who have not built Heroic Epic or West Point and cannot currently do so is not allowed.

05. Administration

5a. Game Administrator - r_rolo1 has sole authority as game administrator. Alternate and/or replacement administrators must be agreed to by all teams.

5b. Pausing - Any Team may pause the game. Any Team may unpause the game. If a Team needs the game to stay paused, they must post in the turn-tracker thread. 72 hours after such a post is made, any team may un-pause the game. If the Admin determines a team is abusing pauses he may suspend or otherwise restrict a teams right to pause the game.

5c. Bugs - The use of any bug is not allowed. Examples include, but are not limited to, Free Tech Bug, Unlimited Gold Bug etc. The decision about exactly what constitutes a bug rests solely with the admin. Consult with the admin if any action you are considering may be a bug or unfair play.

5d. The admin will, in his discretion, harshly punish anyone found in his judgment to be cheating, doing things to intentionally disrupt the game or acting in an obviously unsportsmanlike way.

5d. Defeated Teams -Player on teams that are eliminated are permitted to join another team. These "refugee" players may NOT engage in team espionage by reporting information on their new team to any other team.

Yoe are right that 2c is not necessary. It is just establishing a right to something that hasn't been banned. Also, I left out the mandatory pause thing, as I forsee arguments over whether someone was entitled to a pause. I think the right to consult the admin is probably clear without a rule.

 

[Bowsling]

Started drafting a French version. Grammar at this point is probably horrible, I haven't checked it much. I'm gonna have read more of the Civfr forums to make sure I get some of the civ-speak right.

01. La violation des règlements
Quand les règlements sont violés, le parti sera rechargé à l'endroit le plus proche où le violation est défait. L'hôte peut recharger immédiatement si le violation est évident à tout le monde. Si pas tout le monde est d'accord, le parti serait arrêté pendant un admin prend la décision.

02. Double mouvement pendant la guerre

a. Des civilisations belligérants dans une guerre doivent obéir l'ordre de jeu. L'ordre de jeu est établis par le mod "APT" au début de la guerre. Cependant, les équipes doivent obéir l'ordre de jeu pendant le tour avant la guerre. Si alors l'attaquer a déclaré la guerre avant le défendeur, l'attaquer doit jouer le prochain tour avant le défendeur.

b. Quand les autres équipes joignent à la guerre, ils doivent jouer pendant le bon parti du tour, pour que le mod assigne-eux avec ses alliés.

c. Le double mouvement est interdit même pendant la paix.

d. Tout les actions sont permis pendant le parti du tour approprié. Les avantages et désavantages de chaque position sont une considération stratégique.

03. Le changement des règlements

Les règlements du jeu peuvent être changées seulement avec le consent unanime de chaque équipe ou si l'administrateur décide qu'un changement de règlements est nécessaire.

04. Les actions hors du jeu

a. L'espionnage hors du jeu est interdit. Ceci inclut joindre multiples équipes, demander pour l'information des membres d'autres équipes et chercher pour des images et l'information secret.

 

[grant2004]

I wouldn't remove the rules against out of game espionage, save manipulation, or pre-contact diplomacy. I think these are rules that are important enough to be clear about. I don't want an issue with one of these to arise and to end up hearing "I didn't do anything wrong there isn't a rule against it!"

Also, I'd expect that any benefit we see from simplifying the ruleset is going to be offset by the knee jerk reaction that the reason we're eliminating these rules is so that we can thoroughly abuse them.

 

[talonschild]

@Bowsling: I'm also working a translation, but yours seems good, a few grammar issues notwithstanding. One note, though, is that your 2c prohibits peacetime doublemoves instead of establishing their validity.

 

[Bowsling]

I feel like a fool, I read 2c as forbidding peacetime double moves.