Gamebreaking overflow exploit

[elitetroops]

Did the overflow accumulate ? I mean just like the tech overflow bug, if you can keep finishing a military unit in one turn , will these overflow accumulate and keep snowballing and eventually turn into a huge amount ? In theory , if you have more than 30ppt and can keep finishing the horseman in one turn with 100% + modify , the overflow may eventually be large enough to finish a wonder in one turn !!!

Testing

You can stack overflow and there appears to be no limit. I started a game as Germany, teched to Agoge and the +100% towards mounted. Meanwhile I built a couple of workers and built a slinger and a heavy chariot to very close to completion. Chop slinger and immediately after that chop heavy chariot (38 production/chop). Next turn overflow into Hanging Gardens and reach 170/180. I think I could have got it up to 180 if I had managed to get the Chariot closer to 65. Now it was something like 58/65, which cut down the overflow. On another run I also had a battering ram and warrior close to completion, which I completed the 2 turns before the chopped slinger and chariot. That way I got HG in one turn. Unfortunately Russia already built mids by then, so there was no more expensive build available to see how many hammers I had.

I was thinking earlier about accumulating overflow. What happens in the late game when you do 100-150ppt if you keep building scouts? You can unlock the Spaceport before obsoleting the scout, so maybe you can build up a ton of overflow for that? Haven't tested.

 

[Funnyfish]

Testing

You can stack overflow and there appears to be no limit. I started a game as Germany, teched to Agoge and the +100% towards mounted. Meanwhile I built a couple of workers and built a slinger and a heavy chariot to very close to completion. Chop slinger and immediately after that chop heavy chariot (38 production/chop). Next turn overflow into Hanging Gardens and reach 170/180. I think I could have got it up to 180 if I had managed to get the Chariot closer to 65. Now it was something like 58/65, which cut down the overflow. On another run I also had a battering ram and warrior close to completion, which I completed the 2 turns before the chopped slinger and chariot. That way I got HG in one turn. Unfortunately Russia already built mids by then, so there was no more expensive build available to see how many hammers I had.

I was thinking earlier about accumulating overflow. What happens in the late game when you do 100-150ppt if you keep building scouts? You can unlock the Spaceport before obsoleting the scout, so maybe you can build up a ton of overflow for that? Haven't tested.

just test for keep building the chariot with the 100% policy modify, let's see how big the overflow stacks will turn into!

 

[Magil]

I would say "this is the stuff that happens when you change the entire design team between versions", but Ed Beach worked on the Civ V expansions so he should know better. But then, from watching the Emperor-difficulty stream I'm getting the feeling that Ed Beach doesn't really know how to use the inner workings of Civ very well. And I don't know who else was involved in this kinda thing.

Regardless, overflow production was a thing in IV that got fixed (though some bugs that introduced in later patches never got fixed iirc). V fixed things too... most things. Let's see if VI will actually fix things.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

A shame scythians can't (easily) get a city above what it costs to make horsemen 1/t.
You'd be overflowing with gold AND be building wonders in 1 turn.

Worth a try for an uber-broken game though

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Testing

You can stack overflow and there appears to be no limit. I started a game as Germany, teched to Agoge and the +100% towards mounted. Meanwhile I built a couple of workers and built a slinger and a heavy chariot to very close to completion. Chop slinger and immediately after that chop heavy chariot (38 production/chop). Next turn overflow into Hanging Gardens and reach 170/180. I think I could have got it up to 180 if I had managed to get the Chariot closer to 65. Now it was something like 58/65, which cut down the overflow. On another run I also had a battering ram and warrior close to completion, which I completed the 2 turns before the chopped slinger and chariot. That way I got HG in one turn. Unfortunately Russia already built mids by then, so there was no more expensive build available to see how many hammers I had.

I was thinking earlier about accumulating overflow. What happens in the late game when you do 100-150ppt if you keep building scouts? You can unlock the Spaceport before obsoleting the scout, so maybe you can build up a ton of overflow for that? Haven't tested.

If the overflow is enough to build it, then it should instabuild it when you choose that to be built... ie
Turn 200 (in city getting 100 ppt) What do you want to build? select scout... end turn

Turn 201 (have a scout and massive overflow) What do you want to build? select Scout...2nd scout appears..What do you want to build? (repeat until what you want to build costs more than the amount of overflow left)..then end turn.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

If the overflow is enough to build it, then it should instabuild it when you choose that to be built... ie
Turn 200 (in city getting 100 ppt) What do you want to build? select scout... end turn

Turn 201 (have a scout and massive overflow) What do you want to build? select Scout...2nd scout appears..What do you want to build? (repeat until what you want to build costs more than the amount of overflow left)..then end turn.

AFAICT insta-build only occurs if production is added to the city during the turn (such as from chopping); selecting an item that costs less than the current overflow does not.

 

[elitetroops]

Tested accumulating overflow some more. City producing around 100 ppt, Spaceport would take 20 turns. Instead I build Horsemen with Maneuver policy 16 turns in a row, then I can 1-turn the Spaceport, or anything else on the build list. This was on emperor difficulty, don't know if the secret production bonus would have worked even better on deity. Anyway, yes, unlimited stacked overflow is a thing in this game.

I'm losing all interest in playing this game right now. What's the point trying to achieve a great victory date when the game is this broken.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

AFAICT insta-build only occurs if production is added to the city during the turn (such as from chopping); selecting an item that costs less than the current overflow does not.

It Should happen though...it would eliminate the ability to game overflow (as long as % bonuses were properly divided out)

 

[Takfloyd]

So this explains that weirdness no one could explain with certain units suddenly being ridiculously cheap compared to others, as seen here:

Spoiler :

It appears it only affects Ancient-era units and makes Horsemen even more overpowered than they already were, even without the overflow bug or god forbid, Scythia.

 

[elitetroops]

It appears it only affects Ancient-era units and makes Horsemen even more overpowered than they already were, even without the overflow bug or god forbid, Scythia.

I was just looking into the same thing, as I noticed modern era units do not get the production bonus. Horsemen are classical though. And you also get the bonus for catapults and siege towers. So probably a passive bonus to all ancient and classical military units as soon as you unlock Agoge, regardless if you use the policy or not. Agoge adds an additional bonus to melee and archery on top of this.

I tested at Prince and Settler level, no bonus on either of those. Emperor-Deity gets the bonus. Not sure about King.

So is this a bug or a feature? I think this bonus was meant for the AI.

 

[skallben]

So is this a bug or a feature? I think this bonus was meant for the AI.

If it is meant for the AI it's still a broken workaround for poor AI. The AI spams horsemen and chairots, your military rating can't keep up and BOOM they declare war because you are "weak".

 

[Big J Money]

So the bonus that is applied to chop overflow... does the chop number that pops up include the bonus, or does it always say 38?

Also where does 38 come from? Is that the value of all chops?

 

[elitetroops]

So the bonus that is applied to chop overflow... does the chop number that pops up include the bonus, or does it always say 38?

Also where does 38 come from? Is that the value of all chops?

38 production is the base value. The base value depends on how many techs you have researched, just like district costs, and goes up as you progress through the tech tree. When you chop, the base value is multiplied by whatever modifiers you have in place for the current build. The problem here is that the modified overflow hammers carry on in full into the next build. So if you chop into something you have +100% modifier for when only 2 production is required to complete it, the production is doubled, 2 production subtracted to complete the build and the rest applied to whatever you want. When exploited, it becomes a +100% modifier on chops towards any possible build.

In addition there's some weird bonus modifier for all military units that we don't understand yet. (OP in this thread is probably wrong, the modifier wasn't applied twice but the mystery modifier kicked in to confuse me.)

 

[Big J Money]

Well yes, I understand the modifier problem. I was just curious if the floaty number shows the modified value or the base value only.

And thanks for explaining how the base value is affected by progression.

The thread is now actually about 2 issues by the way. The mysteriously appearing production modifier probably deserves its own thread but maybe you reported as a bug already.

 

[elitetroops]

Yes, it kind of diverted into 2 issues. I already started a separate thread about the mysterious modifier in the bug reports forum.

 

[narmox]

Won a space victory with that exploit too, wasn't sure if it would work but I guess the great people and social policies I had in place allowed Carl Sagan (gives 3000 cogs towards space race project), multiplied by 100% + 20% + 15% (Werner von Braun, another great scientist, and a military social policy). Add to that the stacked factories/power plants, hmm yeah that probably ends up being 9000.

 

[elitetroops]

Won a space victory with that exploit too, wasn't sure if it would work but I guess the great people and social policies I had in place allowed Carl Sagan (gives 3000 cogs towards space race project), multiplied by 100% + 20% + 15% (Werner von Braun, another great scientist, and a military social policy). Add to that the stacked factories/power plants, hmm yeah that probably ends up being 9000.

The Great People giving production towards Space Projects might also be boosted by Communism (10%+) and Hong Kong (20%). Possibly also by the happiness level in your city (5 or 10%). Not sure about Ruhr Valley. I found Ruhr Valley has no effect on chops.

 

[LanguishViking]

I would say "this is the stuff that happens when you change the entire design team between versions", but Ed Beach worked on the Civ V expansions so he should know better. But then, from watching the Emperor-difficulty stream I'm getting the feeling that Ed Beach doesn't really know how to use the inner workings of Civ very well. And I don't know who else was involved in this kinda thing.

Regardless, overflow production was a thing in IV that got fixed (though some bugs that introduced in later patches never got fixed iirc). V fixed things too... most things. Let's see if VI will actually fix things.

That makes me hopeful that Virgin Queen might get a sequel.

 

[narmox]

The Great People giving production towards Space Projects might also be boosted by Communism (10%+) and Hong Kong (20%). Possibly also by the happiness level in your city (5 or 10%). Not sure about Ruhr Valley. I found Ruhr Valley has no effect on chops.

Ah yeah thanks, forgot about those other factors didn't have Hong Kong in this game but other city states which gave extra production to cities building wonders, buildings and perhaps projects? Also the happiness must have been a factor too. Def not communism or Ruhr Valley in this game though (I did have the Valley but not in a spaceport city haha)

 

[elitetroops]

Ah yeah thanks, forgot about those other factors didn't have Hong Kong in this game but other city states which gave extra production to cities building wonders, buildings and perhaps projects? Also the happiness must have been a factor too. Def not communism or Ruhr Valley in this game though (I did have the Valley but not in a spaceport city haha)

There's still something weird going on with the Space Project multipliers as well. In my game I had:

Ecstatic cities: +10%
Great Engineer boost: +20%
Military Academies: +15%
Hong Kong: +20%
Communism: +11%

Add them up to get +76%.

The number shown at bottom right telling the production of the city includes +10% from amenities (I counted, it adds up). In Ruhr Valley city the number includes an additional +20% modifier. Shouldn't this be +30%?? When I end turn and see how much I progressed between turns, I get the reported number *1.71. I have 3 different spaceport cities, got same multiplier in all of them, also with Ruhr Valley. That's a bit too much, should be max *1.66, since amenities were already counted. Where is the last +5% coming from?

If I chop a forest, I get the base yield multiplied by the same 1.71 factor. Same goes for harvesting resources. I get same yields for harvesting forests in Ruhr Valley and non Ruhr Valley cities. I test the Engineer who gives +1500 production towards Space Projects as well, he also gets the 1.71 multiplier, both in Ruhr Valley and Non Ruhr Valley cities. Ruhr Valley does not boost chops or production from Great People.

Next I reload, declare war on Hong Kong to lose suzeranity, and try it all again. The multiplier applied to city production, chops and Great People production now goes down to 1.49. That's a .22 drop, so somewhere in there the 20% bonus is multiplied by another 10% bonus to become a 22% bonus? Or is there some hidden difficulty multiplier, or similar, in place (game was emperor difficulty)?

In any case, even without any of the +100% Great People, my +1500 production GE yielded 2567 production towards space projects (with Hong Kong). Add 2 chops and it launches immediately. With additional +100% bonuses, and Carl Sagan for +3000 production, there should be no problem to get those modules up instantly.