Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[PublicEnemy]

The Civil Service Slingshot is difficult on Emperor.
I always used it on Monarch because early beaurocracy is so powerful, however it's very difficult to finish CoL in time on Emperor before someone else builds the Oracle so I don't even bother trying for it anymore.
I feel my game has improved because of it, becoming so dependant on one strategy is bad (and boring).

Hopefully you guys will move your next SG up to Emperor, that will make for an even more interesting game than this one i think.

 

[Bezhukov]

"I am alittle surprised, by Manufatured Goods."

That's my, meager, influence. I'm always first in that, usually at the cost of power. Trading options will improve with:

A. More contacts
B. When the techs are more widely known
C. When our relations improve

C. will be tough before the availability of free religion to cool down the religious gap. On the one hand, Mansa is the tech hound he is because he doesn't let merely religious differences stop him from advantageous trades, but this also means he's our most serious threat this game, suggesting we may want to rebuff his overtures sooner rather than later.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I am shocked at the low power rating of these guys: Mansa is a plum ripe for the picking! It is nice that they don't know each other yet: that means we are probably dealing with at least two continents besides our own. I would consider signing Open Borders with them both because both could be converted with Missionaries when we get around to it. (Mao didn't found Judaism, only converted to it).

Since Mansa has no religion, he is probably alone or on an island with one other civ. Since Mao adopted a religion, he obviously has company.

The question is, what are we willing to give for Currency? Old Mansa is no fool. He wants Monotheism, Monarchy and Civil Service! He is in the Representation civic as well. I would be hesitate to give up Civil Service to him as it is a big step towards Maces.

Mao has Theology and Currency in red. Can't even negotiate for it! He wantsa Monarchy and Lit for Construction. I would do this.

I am sure they will take a lot less for our techs than what they are asking for. It is possible that Mao will take Compass for Construction, and that might allow us to trade Const. and Mono to Mansa for currency (on the following turn). If Mao would take the Compass trade, I would probably go ahead and go for it. But waiting a couple of turns in an effort to meet more AIs isn't a bad option either. It is up to you, Ven. Bede! But I wouldn't wait too long. It probably won't be long before Mansa researches Const. and Mono on his own, for instance, and then we would have to trade him something more valuable for currency.

I think it is very, very probable that Mansa will be our first victim, so under No Circumstances would I trade or give him Monarchy, Machinery or Civil Service. As Leif mentioned, the last two are a step toward Maces. Monarchy is even worse: a step toward longbowmen.

In general, I wouldn't trade those three techs to anyone unless you can get something really, really good in exchange: like I might trade Machinery for Theology if it was to a civ that I didn't expect to attack for a long while. I am also very stingy with Alphabet.

Mansa is so weak right now (only Skirmishers for defense). I would be making every effort I could to shave even a single turn off the time it takes us to attack. I think we only need 3 galleons, 5 macemen, 1 spear and 3 cats to get started, although we will certainly need to keep sending reinforcements after that. We should try to time a few galley builds so they flip over to galleons on the turn we get Astronomy. I would also consider upgrading our two axmen or Adam if it allows us to begin the assault sooner.

Edit: I also now officially take back what I said about a Grenadier rush with tech off being dangerous in this game. These guys aren't ducks in a pond, they are ducks in a bathtub.

Edit2: Another good reason to trade early rather than late is this: if they do demand a tech like Monarchy or CS and we say no, there goes our chance to trade with them for either of these techs that we really want.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Pardon the double post, but I just noticed something else about the save:

Bede, did you have all our cities switched to max commerce just for kicks? If not, then there are definitely a bunch of tiles that need to be switched around before hitting end turn! I’m all for getting Astronomy quickly, but that looks a bit extreme. We aren’t even running our priest.

Another small strategy we might want to take advantage of in upcoming turns:
We can currently use production switching to our advantage. After this first round of Macemen are built, I would build the next round of Macemen until 1 turn is remaining then switch to catapults, then build those until 1 turn is remaining and switch to Spears. In that way, if we research Theology after Astronomy (or trade for it), we can revolt to Theocracy and build all our units in 3 consecutive turns with their extra promotions. If we whip a couple of Macemen after that and let Tiwan and Olly build/whip our three boats, that will be all we need to start the Malinese War.

Another quick note on slavery: the optimal time to rush non-wonder buildings in our cities is when the following number of hammers are needed to complete production:

1 pop: 31-37 hammers
2 pop: 61-74
3 pop: 91-110
4 pop: 121-149
At pop 4 and higher, basically we just avoid rushing when the hammers remaining is a multiple of 30.

Those numbers are for cities that do not have a forge. The optimal range is actually even bigger for cities with a forge.

It is interesting to note that, with a forge, all we need is 1 hammer toward a Maceman in order to get 90 hammers for 2 pops, or 6 hammers toward a Galleon to get 90 hammers. That could come in very handy, especially for a city like Olly. We have to have the forge to get the extra whip hammers for units, of course, because the Org. Religion bonus only goes toward buildings.

 

[Bezhukov]

All good stuff - the only concern I have about going after Mansa first is that his lack of religion means we can develop good relations with him without having to change our own. This is of limited utility, however, due to the difficulty of buying Mansa into wars generally.

The alternative to trading for techs, then turning off research, is to use our research capacity to trade techs for war allies as we continue to research ourselves. For civs on their own continent, this won't do much; for civs sharing a continent, it can save us a lot of work thinning out counter units.

 

[DJMGator13]

Stupid question time: Is there a way to tell when another civ will accept your trade offer, without actually offering it to them? I know if you ask them to accept it and there is not enough on the table they won't accept.

Observations from the save: China has 9 cities and the Lighthouse, while Mali only has 6 cities but has built Stonehenge, Pyramids and Parthenon. Mali also has 2 cities in the Top 5 list, while China has none. None of Mali's or China's cities are former Indian cities so they are probably not the military power. No one else has built a wonder and only the Aztecs have a city in the Top 5.

I think Brad's targeting of Mali is good. We can gain 3 Wonders from them. I've never built the Forbidden Palace so I'm not sure how powerful it is.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Stupid question time: Is there a way to tell when another civ will accept your trade offer, without actually offering it to them?...

I've never built the Forbidden Palace so I'm not sure how powerful it is.

No way that I know of. It is quite tedious to offer a trade for a few techs and 90g, then 80g, then 70g, etc. etc., but that is what I do.

The more you play you will get a feel for what you can get though.

When you are taking a second core far from home, the FP can save a lot of cash. I always build it unless I plan to get to Communism/State Property very quickly. (State Property essentially makes the FP and Versailles completely useless).

 

[Bezhukov]

Mansa has the the 'mids? Well, then; that settles that.

 

[leif erikson]

Stupid question time: Is there a way to tell when another civ will accept your trade offer, without actually offering it to them? I know if you ask them to accept it and there is not enough on the table they won't accept.

That's not a stupid question! I've been trying to figure that out since I got the game? What I have been doing is clicking on "What would we need to do to make this deal", or something like that. But it isn't very precise.

@Bez - Don't we need to see more of the world to decide if we can use tech to trade for allies? I'm not sure Mansa could get to Mao. Tough thing to plan on. Of course, you know what I'm going to say. Let's go get those Pyramids!!

Oh, I see you've already said that!

 

[DJMGator13]

Unless two of the following three conditions are met:

A. Industrious civ
B. Start with Mysticism, hence in the religious tree early
C. Easy access to marble

How do these 3 apply to Monarch games? I keep missing the Oracle in my practice games unless I start with marble nearby. I think I've only gotten it once without marble.

 

[Bezhukov]

It's a significant risk, although Brad's focus on cottage development uber alles greatly increases his chances. That and his nonpareil tactical acumen. I'm not always so confident in my own, so tend toward strategies with a little more, shall we say, "play" in them.

When one makes fewer errors, one needs allow less margin for them.

 

[Bezhukov]

"@Bez - Don't we need to see more of the world to decide if we can use tech to trade for allies? I'm not sure Mansa could get to Mao. Tough thing to plan on. Of course, you know what I'm going to say. Let's go get those Pyramids!!"

Yes, but unless you're hopelessly behind, the options will be there with a little work (need to pay attention to who already hates who, build relations via trade/religion, etc..), but as I stipulated, counting on an AI to do much damage overseas is a fool's errand. Where sowing discord is useful is where AI's share a land border (ah, AI/AI pillaging, a thing of beauty!), or where you need to prevent a dogpile on yourself, or where a runaway AI needs to be dissuaded from continuing to develop tech/infra, or where you need to get to friendly relations via "mutual military" to overcome the "too advanced" limit/a diplo win.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

How do these 3 apply to Monarch games? I keep missing the Oracle in my practice games unless I start with marble nearby. I think I've only gotten it once without marble.

I assume you don't mean missing the Oracle, but rather missing the CS slingshot.

On monarch level, if you draw a dry start, are not financial or do not have commerce bonuses, then going for the slingshot is a big risk. But if you do have one of those things in your favor, then you can usually get it. You may not have the time to go after the worker techs though: it depends on the total commerce you are able to generate.

On Emperor level things are completely different. Without multiple commerce bonuses or being financial on a river, I have found the chance of making the slingshot to be very poor. However, in reading through the pregame thread for GoTM4, it seems some people are having more success than I do.

 

[DJMGator13]

I assume you don't mean missing the Oracle, but rather missing the CS slingshot.

I've been missing the Oracle because I've been trying to time it for CS (delayed starting it), but I have been playing some resource poor, dry starts.

I didn't realize how nice our start was for this game until I started playing more practice games.

 

[Bezhukov]

I was about to note the same thing. Starting with flood plain and corn on grass is ideal for the approach Brad advocated here because growth largely takes care of itself.

 

[Bede]

So what about "cookie-cutter" approaches? Looks like we are all now agreed that successful strategies require specific circumstances to be successful

Sorry to take so long, but I wanted to read through and digest the commentary before I committed my howlers. About three quarters through and will be able to finish and post early evening tomorrow.

The deals for Construction and Currency went through as suggested by Brad, the Gardens and the Library and the Shrine are finished. The completion of the Gardens required an immediate revolt to HR and the application of the whip to finish the Library as the new citizens were very grumpy.

The global circumnavigation is about to complete. There are seven squares of ocean left to traverse.

 

[DJMGator13]

So what about "cookie-cutter" approaches? Looks like we are all now agreed that successful strategies require specific circumstances to be successful

Well I only had 1 of the 3, indust trait and I just got the CS slingshot in a Monarch game tonight without marble, but I had a wheat and several FP, plus a gold hill. Oh yeah, it was also aided by 2 forest chops and a 20+ hammer carryover to start. I actually had time to research a tech in between learning COL and completing the Oracle.

Which leads me to another question for Brad. I've basically followed the tech path of this game, with a few adjustment to the worker techs. I just finished Monotheism, but since there are 2 other civs on my continent is it better to pursue the faster path to optics, to find more civs, or should I be concentrating on taking out my neighbors? Here is the current save if that helps.

 

[leif erikson]

So what about "cookie-cutter" approaches? Looks like we are all now agreed that successful strategies require specific circumstances to be successful

Yes, it will be interesting to see how this progresses. It seems there is much to learn.

Sorry to take so long, but I wanted to read through and digest the commentary before I committed my howlers. About three quarters through and will be able to finish and post early evening tomorrow.

Wow, you are really moving things along!!
Keep digesting, you may have it won by morning...

 

[bradleyfeanor]

before I committed my howlers.

I've never heard that expression before, but I find it very funny. Please take your time on your turns: your set is by far the most complex round we have had this game. Your turns are off to a great start: I am thrilled we were able to get Currency and Construction without giving up much of anything in return! And we have our Shrine to boot!

I just finished Monotheism, but since there are 2 other civs on my continent is it better to pursue the faster path to optics, to find more civs, or should I be concentrating on taking out my neighbors?

Wow, that is a sweet island you have there: lots of gold, fish, silver, cows, rivers. Nice. With a start like that one (a long river with 3FPs, gold and wheat), you could even make the CS jump on Emperor level!

I only took a quick peak, but here is what I would do:

I am sure you have already chosen a victory condition since that is the most important step to having a great game, of course. I will assume you are going for domination since you are Washington--he's my favorite leader for domination games (Organized and Financial is Woo Hoo powerful).

With dom in mind, you will have to research at least to Astronomy, so research is going to be very important. That would be my #1 concern. I would try to establish a core of 8-10 great cities (every one of those cities should have at least one food bonus or lots of river grass tiles plus either excellent commerce or production potential).

Unfortunately, one or both of those AIs are going to crowd you and keep you from that perfect core, so at least one will have to go before Astronomy. I would plan to research or trade for Swords and Catapults before Astronomy in order to take one of them out, if not both of them. But you should try to do it without hurting your research too much.

In other words, establishing 1-2 high production cities and building your military is a priority, but getting an Academy in your capitol and founding a city around those three gold tiles (hopefully also claiming a food bonus) should come first. Ideally, you will be able to kill one AI while turning the other into a solid trading partner and ally--until you are ready to assimilate him too.

While you are taking out one or both of the AIs on your continent, I would pick a point in the tech tree at which I wanted to attack the other continent. As an example, I might pick knights in your game if I wanted to really go for an early date. I would pick Grenadiers if I wanted to play it safe. Before you reach your tech goal, most of your decisions (where to found cities, what to research, what improvements to build) should be made with commerce/research in mind. Once you get close to your goal, switch everything to full production mode and kill, kill, kill.

Edit: One thing has not changed from Civ3 to Civ4: workers rule...and I am wondering where yours are.

 

[Bezhukov]

"While you are taking out one or both of the AIs on your continent, I would pick a point in the tech tree at which I wanted to attack the other continent. As an example, I might pick knights in your game if I wanted to really go for an early date. I would pick Grenadiers if I wanted to play it safe. Before you reach your tech goal, most of your decisions (where to found cities, what to research, what improvements to build) should be made with commerce/research in mind. Once you get close to your goal, switch everything to full production mode and kill, kill, kill."

This is the cookie cutter I fear. Sure, for Toku, that's great. With Washington, the longer the game goes, the better you get. I'd team up with one of the civs on your continent to take out the other. You'll then have sufficient tiles to do whatever you want, and a lifelong buddy.

You can prepare a Navy SEAL assault (backed up with naval bombarbment) to slaughter the opposing continent(s), with assistance from your ally to thin counters, or just launch while the other AI are still trying to figure out the intricacies of Rocketry, impeded no doubt by being at war with your ally, who you've sent on a succession of wild goose chases attacking overseas.

BTW, If I were playing the game in question, I'd likely also be abusing free speech and cathedrals to steal all my ally's tiles, and eventually, cities.

Undoubtably suboptimal, but great fun.