Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[DJMGator13]

Thanks for the comments on the practice game. What should have been my worker builds turned into warriors especially after finding 2 rivals on my continent and having lost my first warrior and a scout. I'm also short on cities, compared to our current game but my commerce is good.

For dom what Wonders are good to build, I don't want to overbuild them when those hammers could have been making either units or other structures?

 

[bradleyfeanor]

@Gator: You need units, workers and settlers more than additional wonders. You really don't have a shot at the Pyramids, Colossus or Great Lighthouse since you have no coastal city and haven't hooked up stone yet: the Parthenon is also dangerous considering you have no marble and are just starting it. But that is ok, you really don't need any of those wonders. I wouldn't go after the HG either unless you have a planned use for a Great Engineer.

You will definitely want to get lit when you can for the two epics (which are useful in almost any game, not just dom). The Great Library is nice, but not vital in the game you have going (it would enable you to get a second Academy in that sweet spot by the gold hills, but the AI might beat you to that spot, and you will need units to conquer them first).

Given your goal and your traits, I would go after the Hagia Sophia. Fast workers traveling along with your military, chopping out courhouses to take full advantage of your Organized trait, would be a very strong strategy. You will also probably have stone by the time you start building it, so that will help.

This is the cookie cutter I fear.

I appreciate your opinion that turning off research ignores half the game, but I don't share that opinion--and I am finding the cookie-cutter description to be getting a bit old because I don't think it is accurate.

For me, always planning to research until endgame sounds very boring. It would take away some of the most difficult planning and strategizing in Civ 4--and that is my favorite part of the game. As I already mentioned, turning off research requires a lot of thought and a very focused plan: and if you do it wrong, you're dead. That is High Entertainment for me!

It is certainly important to play all the way through the tech tree several times in order to learn the game. After that, if someone gets the most enjoyment by always leaving research on, then that is wonderful and the way they should play. But if a person enjoys the game more by considering turning off research at different points in the tech tree (like me), I think that is fine too.

Regarding the GoTM, if a person only wants to participate in the competition (which is great), then they can avoid making any decisions about turning off research. If they want to be competitive, however, I think they would be well advised to start thinking about optimal times to turn off research and how to use that to their advantage.

 

[Bezhukov]

You're missing some of my point. Yes, I do think this idea of turning off research is bad for the game in general, but I also suspect it might be suboptimal, especially for civ traits that take a little longer to fully exploit, though that may never be discovered if the "standard move" becomes the one you forcefully advocate.

Let me assure you, if I'm planning for domination, I won't be researching ALL the way through the tree. I will have won long before that, but notice that doesn't imply that I've ever needed to turn my research RATE down. Temporarily, perhaps. Permanently, you're ignoring valuable resources to do so.

My gifts run to the strategic and speculative, so I don't imagine I can be as persuasive as Brad's tactical and concrete mastery. Eppure si muove.

 

[Methos]

Eppure si muove.

"However it moves"- Galilei

 

[Bede]

Zoom out the map and work out a search pattern. The northernmost boat will head NW until it finds a border, land or ice, then will turn SW. East boat and west boat will continue in those directions respectively until they encounter the nations and lands hiding in the fog. The future sailing directions will be determined at that point

Turn 129 (350 AD)
There appears to be an uninhabited island between Ollie and the Mali mainland. If we choose the path of peace with Mansa getting a settler and a missionary across to there will be important. If we choose the path of war having a bolthole that close to his mainland will also be useful.

Turn 130 (375 AD)
Contact made: Chinese Empire

And he has on offer

Corihuayrachina grows and the extra pop becomes an anvil for the Forge

Turn 131 (400 AD)
Contact made: Malinese Empire

And his peddler's pack

Corihuayrachina begins a Confucian Temple for mothers to pray in once we send their sons to war!


Machu Picchu grows and finishes its Lighthouse. More people, more food, more coins!


Turn 132 (425 AD)

Exploration planning

The China Passage

The Northwest Passage

The boat in the northwest will aim SW to link with one or the other of the east and west ships. Or it may find more land.

Turn 131 (400 AD)
We get what we want from Mao and coins besides as he throws in some gold with Construction in exchange for Compass

Turn 132 (425 AD)
Mansa is a little less generous but does include 20 gold coins with Currency in his offer for Monotheism and Construction

And look who's lurking in the dark to the west of China

Turn 133 (450 AD)

Tiwanaku finishes: The Hanging Gardens

Ollantaytambo finishes Confucian Temple just in time for the pop to pop into unhappiness


Turn 134 (475 AD)
Tiwanaku begins: Galley
Ollantaytambo begins: Galley
Corihuayrachina begins: Barracks
Cuzco finishes The Great Library with the help of the whip
Machu Picchu finishes a Maceman
Taoism founded in a distant land

Turn 135 (500 AD)
Cuzco begins: Forge
Machu Picchu begins: Maceman
With the Great Library finished take the anarchy for the switch to HR for the garrison happiness
Mahavira (Great Prophet) born in Tiwanaku and he heads for the Holy City of Machu Piccu


Atlanta is French! This the the Northeastern Shore of the Sino/Frankish continent.

The boat heading SW hsa discovered the northern shore of France/China.

Paris in the spring

Turn 136 (520 AD)
Tiwanaku begins: Harbor

Turn 137 (540 AD)
Machu Picchu finishes: The Kong Miao
Corihuayrachina queues up a Galley for conversion when Astonomy is learned
And the same order is placed in all the coastal towns. We should then have boats enough for the first expeditionary force. Now we need the army

Turn 138 (560 AD)

The circuit is closed

North boat turns back for a closer examination of Mali coastline while the companion turns south to uncover the soft underbelly of the Malinese.

Turn 139 (580 AD)
At Ollantaytambo Harbor is placed in queue ahead of the galley. This order needs to changed after Astronomy is learned.

Turn 140 (600 AD)
Machu Picchu begins Harbor as the galleon placeholder. Change back to a boat after Astronomy comes in.

With the navy currently on the stocks we should have enough boats to assemble the first invasion fleet.

Does it go east or west?

We lag in power but our economy remains the strongest. The one will change and the other should remain as it stands. I am not sure what infrastructure remains, other than markets. Perhaps a 'duct or two.

As Brad pointed out I tend to over commercialize just a little. So whenever I have a doubt as to where to put a citizen or what worker action to take I will choose the one that will produce commerce before anything else. Since we are still working slavery I also tended to emphasize food for replacement population.

I am not very good when it somes to priotizing Great People generation, so the citizen assignments at Cuzco may not be the best (I despise the word "suboptimal", BTW, it is another of those ugly fin de siecle compound word creations that sets my teeth on edge) At any rate I chose growth and commerce instead of hammers and Great People. Nonetheless all projects got done in a timely fashion.

Were I carrying whis forward the emphasis would switch to production and troop training. My aim would be te soft underbelly of the Mali. It is approximately twelve ocean tiles to landfall on the island on the west edge of <ali territory and another three or four to the Mali borders, which do not reach all the way to the edge of the continent on either side.

It is roughly the same sailing distance to the Chinese coast on the west, however that land seems fully occupied by France and China. It may in fact be that between the two of them they have already eliminated the Indians and the Americans.

The logistics seem to favor the Mali landing first as there are three productive towns facing them and only one productive town on the west (That will change as Huamanga gets up to speed)

I haven't spent much time analysing the diplomatic situation other than a gut feel that Mao and Nappy are partners in crime while the Mali stand alone. I would bend every effort to placate the French for the time being as they have the potential to become a useful counterweight against Mao. That means missionaries into France for conversion and commerce and developing the resource trades with Napolean while holding Mao at arm's length. Judging from the technology screens Mao seems to have a slight edge over Napolean at the moment.

Theology is out ther but not open for trade. Our commerce is powerful enough that I would be relunctant to trade for it in any case as we can self research it in quick time.

 

[Bezhukov]

Since we went directly for Astronomy, I'd like to maximize the value of our (early, more lucrative) ocean trade routes by letting those harbors finish (they'll also give us a nice health boost), researching toward corporation (to open up more routes) and getting some (early, cheaper than unis) observatories built as well. Maybe build one at a time while other cities build troops, or add one to the whip schedule for Ollan.

 

[Bede]

The harbors will finish soon enough but I really really want the navy in the water.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

A save, a save, my kingdom for a save! Good job Bede: you accomplished much in those 10 short turns.

Myself, I prefer not only a navy in the water but one fully loaded with units. There will be time enough for star gazing while the troops are city razing.

JK, no razing!

 

[DJMGator13]

I think we found the military power. Napoleon has been busy. Washington, New York, Atlanta & Boston. I'd be interested to see if he has the Indian cities (when we get the save ). He also doesn't have COL which means no courthouses. I wonder if he has crashed his economy? Don't forget we haven't found the Aztecs yet.

BTW, what is the penalty for going bankrupt, loss of city improvements or troops?

 

[Bezhukov]

"I despise the word "suboptimal", BTW, it is another of those ugly fin de siecle compound word creations that sets my teeth on edge"

That's just English. How else you think the old whore's gotten so much action? I'll tell you: low standards, and nothing but.

Don't like it? Take it up with Billy Shaxper. Come to the think of it, I'd imagine the original Bede (the, er, more venerable one ) would likely share your sentiments.

 

[leif erikson]

Excellent work Brother Bede!! Wow is all I can say atm. Did you really play only ten turns.

I think I hear the beating drums of WAR in Cuzco. Macemen, call to arms. And a Navy to carry them.

Napolean looks to be the bigshot. But I have the same question as Gator, how does he carry it without destroying his economy?

 

[Bezhukov]

Look at his tech. He doesn't.

 

[Bede]

OOPS

 

[leif erikson]

The graphs are very interesting to me. We are first in Gold, Food (although the curve takes a recent dip as we hit the happiness limits?) and Culture. We are second in production, Napoleon is first, and, not surprisingly, last in Power. In the power category, we do not seem to be very far behind Mansa, who is third, or China, who is second. Napolean is way out in front. I would think this is good because he will have a lot of outdated units he can not upgrade due to lack of Gold and maintenance expenses?

Shouldn't we expect the Aztecs to be somewhere below but not too far behind Napoleon?

Also, we can turn down the research slider to 80% and still get Astronomy in 1 turn, making 1 GPT. Actually, the research slider could go down to 20% and still get Astronomy in 1 turn, to give us 111 Gold for the turn, although this would be at the expense of carried over research.

Is it time to head for Chemistry at full speed? If so, it looks like we have about 35 turns until we complete Chemistry, unless we can trade for Engineering or Feudalism along the way. But I don't see how our friendly rivals will have any of those techs soon!

 

[bradleyfeanor]

If I were playing this for fast dom, my first goal would be to get 12 units and 2 missionaries built for the Malinese conquest. I would also let the units sit in the queue until we get Theology and convert to Theocracy as I mentioned in a previous post.

Building additional structures right now will give us a small increase in commerce/research, but will delay our conquest and capture of the pyramids and parthenon significantly. At this point in the game, do you guys really think it is worth delaying the war for a small boost to our already healthy research rate?

I don't see the value in building harbors instead of units. A harbor is currently worth 1 commerce per turn, and if we are able to get overseas trade then it will be worth a whopping 2cpt. A harbor's health boost seems of limited value right now as well. If we are going to utilize slavery to rush a few units and wipe out Mali, our cities will not be growing large enough to need additional health for around 15 turns anyway. Plus, we might be able to trade for a health resource next turn.

If we don't utilize slavery to inflate the size of our military quickly and avoid building too many structures, then we are going to end up in an elongated war with Mali, and that is going to give us war weariness issues. We also might end up facing Macemen or Longbows, which would complicate matters tremendously.

After the 12 units are online (and the 4 galleons), I would go ahead and build a few structures: Observatory and market in Cuzco, and Nat. Epic and Market in Tiwanaku (shrine city). While these two cities are building structures, our other cities could get another 8 or so military units in the field. That is about all we will need to completely eliminate Mali. Then we can get the FP built and start developing our new core while our home continent builds a bit more infrastructue.

@Leif: I would definitely advocate getting Theology and then making a beeline to Chemistry. That is all the tech we will need to completely dominate this game. You are right though: I don't think we will be getting any more tech help from the woefully backward AIs.

If we are going to beeline for Chemistry, we need to look at timing on the great scientist generation in Cuzco. We would want to get the scientist at around the same time we can begin researching Chemistry.

 

[leif erikson]

If I were playing this for fast dom, my first goal would be to get 12 units and 2 missionaries built for the Malinese conquest. I would also let the units sit in the queue until we get Theology and convert to Theocracy as I mentioned in a previous post.

Ooops, forgot about this. Theology is a three turn research. In another turn or so we can prolly pop rush the Forge in Cuzco and get 60 hammers to speed along a Mace there, although I know we talked about never popping in the capital? Machu also seems to have some hammers against a Mace (20/70) as well, although it isn't listed in the queue.

The question I was thinking about is can we pop rush a unit and keep it in the queue? Haven't tried it so I don't know. If we can, then we could line up a Mace and then start another while we research Theology. Once it is complete and we change, in two turns, we'd have 2 Maces per city?

If we don't utilize slavery to inflate the size of our military quickly and avoid building too many structures, then we are going to end up in an elongated war with Mali, and that is going to give us war weariness issues. We also might end up facing Macemen or Longbows, which would complicate matters tremendously.

Bede has things set up quite well. There are 4 Galleys in the queue's waiting for Astronomy. There is a Mace in the queue at Cori, along with a Rax, waiting for Theocracy. And I agree, to delay will only make things more difficult. I have too much experience with delays. And we may as well use Slavery to the best advantage we can before we change to Caste System, which I assume (that word again!) we'll do once we're ready to take Malinese cities?

Besides, the Pyramids and Parthenon are too tempting.

 

[DJMGator13]

Napoleon's economy may not be as bad as I thought. He has 50 gold in treasury and +5gpt, but this is probably at the expense of his research. He has also only captured American cities. That means the Aztecs probably did in India and may be a force to deal with also.

The Import/Export stat shows one civ at 28/14 does that mean they are making +14gpt off their trades? If so the rival worst is 18/32 which means someone is paying 14gpt.

I agree that we should start gearing for war. No one can come to Mali's defense and he has some nice big buildings we want. Can he build caravels? Tradeable techs to him show as Alpha, Monarchy and Civil Service, none of which are required for Optics. Both China and France need a few more techs for caravels and off continent contact. So even during a war with Mali we can tech trade with the others if the need arises.

@Brad - if we are going to poprush some units than than how can we leave them in the que for a Theocracy change? Won't that only work on hand built units?

 

[bradleyfeanor]

The Import/Export stat shows one civ at 28/14 does that mean they are making +14gpt off their trades?

I am not quite sure of what it means. I currently only use it as a general indication of how much trading is going on between the AIs.

Can he build caravels? Tradeable techs to him show as Alpha, Monarchy and Civil Service, none of which are required for Optics.

There is a bug in the game that sometimes makes it appear that an AI has a tech that they actually don't have (and this can make trading very dangerous sometimes). I haven't figured out exactly what makes this bug occur. I think that is what is happening here though, and Mansa doesn't really have Optics. He hasn't had time to research both Machinery and Optics, and he can't trade for them.

@Brad - if we are going to poprush some units than than how can we leave them in the que for a Theocracy change? Won't that only work on hand built units?

We can leave whipped units in the queue, we just add something new on top of them. We don't get the overflow hammers until we finally do build the item that was whipped though.

Re: the earlier questions:

Definitely not worth whipping the capitol. That would drop our happy limit by 1 and he needs to keep all people on tiles or as scientists. Also, it looks like Bede already whipped him.

If I were playing this game solo, I would go ahead and make the switch to Caste System at the time I adopted Theocracy. I'm not sure what to recommend in this game though, because I'm not sure what the rest of the team will be building and/or researching. Depending on that, Caste System could be a good or a bad decision.

 

[Bezhukov]

"That is all the tech we will need to completely dominate this game. You are right though: I don't think we will be getting any more tech help from the woefully backward AIs."

I'd say this is true. Will be interesting to see if we can blow a sure win through sheer bloodlust.

 

[Bezhukov]

"I don't see the value in building harbors instead of units. A harbor is currently worth 1 commerce per turn, and if we are able to get overseas trade then it will be worth a whopping 2cpt. A harbor's health boost seems of limited value right now as well."

Evidently the only turn that matters is the current one. Since we beelined for Astronomy, we will soon be swimming in a sea of resources, as we're the only ones who'll be able to trade over the oceans. This will allow us to grow out our cities, which boosts each trade route, and the techs that allow more are coming soon in the tree, if we choose that way (guilds->banking->econ->corp). We are, after all, financial, so we also get cheap banks.

The countervailing case to a tech-based approach is that Nap's dominance lessens the possibility of fomenting crippling internecine wars among the AI via diplo. If Monty is of comparable strength, however, we could kill 400 AI units with one tech trade.