Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[bradleyfeanor]

The reason I thought not to use Organized is that I think it would be more difficult to control maintenance costs without that trait. Creative I thought because of the free culture per turn, which expands borders quicker and allows one to claim resources without building any culture in the city.

Working on the assumption that some of our players have not played much and want to learn the basics, I think you are right: we should avoid organized. I would say financial as well. Those two traits can really change the complexion of the game. Creative isn't all that special: once you have CoL (caste system civic) border expansions are no longer an issue.

I really like setting all conditions, including nation, but excluding level and land form (continents seem to offer the most variations on the theme), to random and playing the hand dealt. And I really like making lemons out of lemonade, e.g. Space Race victories in C3C with AGRI or COM nations and no SCI trait on random continental maps.

As for level, Monarch is a good one for this crowd, I think. Emperor would be doable, but not as much fun.

Sounds good to me. Although if we draw Caesar, don't be surprised if we are peeking under stones around 500 AD. We might get lucky and find a worm to squish, because everything else will be long since dead.

Maybe we should just take whatever civ/scenario we get and play it out. If we wind up playing one of the "special" civs like Caesar or Tokugawa, we will just set our goal for domination around 800ad and then start another game when we are done.

 

[bihary]

Hi guys,

RL has become a bit busy for me, so I have to give up my perspective place on the roster. I hope you will have a nice company and a nice game, I will lurk now and then.

 

[DJMGator13]

I like the random aspect also. How about Monarch, continents, standard map size and normal speed? That way we can get onto some opening play discussion, like what is the best city placement, early chop strategy or save chops for Wonders.

@bihary - noted.

 

[leif erikson]

I really like setting all conditions, including nation, but excluding level and land form (continents seem to offer the most variations on the theme), to random and playing the hand dealt. And I really like making lemons out of lemonade, e.g. Space Race victories in C3C with AGRI or COM nations and no SCI trait on random continental maps.

As for level, Monarch is a good one for this crowd, I think. Emperor would be doable, but not as much fun.

This sounds intriguing!

EDIT: Gator, are you going to generate a save?

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I like the random aspect also. How about Monarch, continents, standard map size and normal speed? That way we can get onto some opening play discussion, like what is the best city placement, early chop strategy or save chops for Wonders.

Sounds good. I am in the home stretch on GoTM3, so I will probably only check in periodically today to see if the save is up. I discovered last night that alt-tabbing out of the late game and opening a web browser is not a good idea at all on my system.

 

[Methos]

I discovered last night that alt-tabbing out of the late game and opening a web browser is not a good idea at all on my system.

lurker's comment: Mine has that problem too. Though if I press the button with the windows emblem on it I'm able to Alt out of the game and back in without any problems at all.

 

[Obormot]

Wow! Bradleyfeanor and hendrikszoon playing an SG! I'll definitely be watching carefully

 

[DJMGator13]

First save I generated gave us the Inca's.

The Save

Three resources at the start, but it looks awful dry to the NW. The water is salty, btw.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, I'll take a stab at this and see what you all think.

Opening Moves:
Since we have Agriculture tech, we can irrigate the corn to the north of our settler. So we should keep that in our capital's radius. The Plains hill to the south of the Warrior looks pretty enticing. To be sure, Warrior to the NE hill to see what is around there, if nothing, Settler to the Plains Hill one south of the Warrior. First build is a Worker.

Techs.
Initial tech researched is The Wheel so we can build roads. Next is Mining on the way to Bronze Working to allow us to make forest chops. Since we have Mysticism, next would be Meditation and then Priesthood for The Oracle. Then we can go Code of Laws and to Civil Service and Macemen or Writng to Alphabet for tech trading? If we are going to warmonger, the Civil Service route is better, I think.

 

[Bede]

I would skip the Wheel for now and head straight for Bronze Working then down the Oracle path. The food benefit will come without the road, and the health benefit won't be needed for a while.

As for research after the Oracle path I learned from an RBCiv game that Alphabet is not all that necessary in the early game, and that it's real value is opening the cultural technologies which become crucial as the towns grow or one begins to war monger or both. Writing is important because it opens the path to the advanced civics techs, though.

That game also taught me (the hard way) that early tech brokering has an opportunity cost in the middle game when even Friendly neighbors will not trade tech because of the "We fear you are becoming too advanced" (WFYBTA) effect.

Having the two grassland food bonuses (wheat and pork) will be real growth fuel in the capitol (pulled pork barbecue sandwiches, Yumm!) and will allow mining on the plains hills, nice, so bouncing to the hill on the river makes sense to me though the deserts to the NW look a problem.

 

[leif erikson]

As for research after the Oracle path I learned from an RBCiv game that Alphabet is not all that necessary in the early game, and that it's real value is opening the cultural technologies which become crucial as the towns grow or one begins to war monger or both. Writing is important because it opens the path to the advanced civics techs, though.

That game also taught me (the hard way) that early tech brokering has an opportunity cost in the middle game when even Friendly neighbors will not trade tech because of the "We fear you are becoming too advanced" (WFYBTA) effect.

I have noticed this but had not put two and two together until now. It is very frustrating to have tradable techs and see all the ones you need in red one the other side!

Having the two grassland food bonuses (wheat and pork) will be real growth fuel in the capitol (pulled pork barbecue sandwiches, Yumm!) and will allow mining on the plains hills, nice, so bouncing to the hill on the river makes sense to me though the deserts to the NW look a problem.

We will need Animal Husbandry to take advantage of the Pork, won't we. Or are you suggesting we Farm the Pork until we get Animal Husbandry. (A light goes on!)

BTW, My thought concerning roads was to be able to shift defensive units between cities when the Barbs start swarming in.

 

[Bezhukov]

A couple notes:

Cities founded on plains hill generate two hammers from the city square, all others one. There is a nice plains hill available for this start.

Trade with "friendly" AI's (i.e. not just "pleased", "friendly" is the highest relations level and usually requires common religion and/or warring with common opponents) is not subject to the "too advanced" limit, and the limit is higher on "pleased" than cautious as well. It's still a good idea not to trade for anything cheaper than math/currency/metal casting.

Given the forests available at the start, Bronze first is ideal, but AH should also not be neglected, to identify horses and get food bonuses developed to build faster future settlers/workers and get new cities up to speed quickly/recover pop from whips.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

If we stayed put, we could actually beat the AIs to Buddhism, but we will miss it by one turn if we move the settler. A Buddhist shrine in a bureaucratic capitol would certainly make for lots of money later in the game. In spite of that, I suppose I prefer the plain/hill location too. It’s hard to pass up that extra hammer when you can get it. In this rare case, I would actually move the settler (NW, SW) before deciding where to go with my warrior. If there happens to be a hut 2SW of the hill (just outside the range of our expanded borders), then the warrior might want to head there rather than NE.

Since getting Buddhism won’t be possible with our settler move, I think my research preference would be TW, Pottery, Mining, BW. All my decisions in the early game center around generating as much commerce/science as I possibly can, so getting a cottage on that floodplain would be my #1 priority. If there happens to be another wine around, then I would put a cottage on the wine as well.

After getting BW I would have to know what kind of terrain we have around us before deciding whether to research AH/writing or meditation/priesthood next. If there are no high-commerce city spots to claim, then I would go with writing and chop a library then run a few scientists toward getting an academy.

Initial build would be worker, of course, followed by a few quechua. Barbs are no issue at all for mighty Huayna.

 

[DJMGator13]

The Quechua is standing on a FP tile and there is another river to the north, so there should be more FP on the other side of the desert.

I’m not sure there is a reason to move the settler, except for settling on a forest and losing the shields from the chop. There are good food sources here and the 3 hills will add shields. Settling here also allows a lighthouse (more food) and keeps all 3 resources and the FP. Any move southward loses the FP.

(semi crossed with Brad's post)

 

[DJMGator13]

@Bezhukov - I'm going to add you as our 5th, since another of my pm's came back with a not able to play but will lurk (from A'AbarachAmadan).

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I’m not sure there is a reason to move the settler, except for settling on a forest and losing the shields from the chop.

They are both good city sites: if we choose the hill we expand faster (due to the extra hammer), if we settle on the spot we can likely get Buddhism in the capitol. If this were a GoTM I would definitely choose the hill because I think it would result in a faster start. This isn't GoTM though, and it would be kind of fun to have a religion right off the bat and a shrine in our capitol. I've never played a game like that before.

 

[DJMGator13]

If this were a GoTM I would definitely choose the hill because I think it would result in a faster start.

Is it better to trade off a faster start for a stronger future city? Settlers are hard to make in the early game so I can see why the extra shield is nice, but how will the 4 desert tiles affect this city later in the game?

 

[Kenji]

lurker's comment:
would like to know which type of map is this, if Paegana, sure go for a better hammer location (and the force of Quecha!), every turn is important.

but if this is continent map...we maybe isolated, or just 1 other civ on this side. not really worth using the plain hill. (since moving to plain hill we will have 1 plain hill left for future production...)

also...moving NW = lost of coastal city site, we still need 1 for better money income from trade route with other civc,

 

[DJMGator13]

Map is Continents, standard size.

 

[Bezhukov]

I'm a bit mystified as to how you're predicting Buddhism's arrival time within a turn?

Depnding on what sort of tile the AI is working, they could beat it to us whatever we do - if you want to grab an early religion, it's fairly well accepted practice to go for Hinduism to be safe instead of Buddhism, as all AI's but Gandhi go for the latter.

As for the early cottage gambit, I strongly disagree. You want to get as many tiles worked as quickly as possible, then dedicate some of those resources thereby gained to commerce.

For one thing, the palace provides 8 commerce for free, so the early cottage is only a marginal gain, comparable to the additonal city square that a quick second city would add. The first priority is a worker who can either chop workers/settler or develop food bonuses to quickly generate additional citizens. The first improvements we need are a farm on the corn, a mine to expedite troops when not growing, and whatever chops are necessary. When we get to our happiness limit, then will then be able to work a cottage or three, but that's a ways down the road.

Oh, and are you serious about Caste System making border pops obsolete? Do you just forgo Bureaucracy, Vassalage, and Free Speech?