Is it normal or epic?
DJMGator13 said:
Is it better to trade off a faster start for a stronger future city?
I think it is better in a warmongering game where you don't expect your cities to get extremely large anyway. It would also be my choice if there are extremely good city sites around or if the AIs are settling aggressively in my direction. In a game that will take a long time to win and in which you have plenty of expansion room, then it might not be worth it.
I don't think this is an issue with these two city sites though. The hill city does have deserts, but if you count up the total food available to it, then it would only support about 1 less citizen than the coastal site. And I doubt either city would reach maximum population in this game unless we go for a space victory.
I think it is more important to compare the production and commerce potential of the two cities at size 12 and lower, because that is the size they will be for most of the game. Before the pigs are pastured, the hill city will produce 1 hammer more than the coastal city. That is a pretty big deal at size 1-2, but not so much after that. But at some point we will be pasturing the pigs, and then the hill city gets a big boost over the coastal city. It can grow faster, support more specialists and work more hills than the coastal city can for most of its lifespan. And since both food and hammers count toward building settlers and workers, the hill city will produce them
much faster than the coastal city.
Bezhukov said:
I'm a bit mystified as to how you're predicting Buddhism's arrival time within a turn??
If the AI pops a lucky hut then we could miss it. But here is how I can predict when it will be discovered: Mysticism costs 119 beakers for us, 104 beakers for the AI on a standard size map, normal speed, monarch difficulty. If we work the wine tile then we generate 12 beakers per turn. The actual number of beakers we will get each turn toward meditation though, is 15. (You can find out how I came up with that number
HERE). At 15bpt, it will take us 8 turns to get Mysticism. All the AIs will most likely start off working a tile that gives one commerce, but lets say an AI that starts with Mysticism also begins next to a commerce bonus tile on a river (very, very rare) that yields 2 commerce. The AI would get 11bpt, 14bpt after adjustments. That means it would take the AI 8 turns to research Meditation
at a minimum. That's how I know when it will arrive.
Normally I would research Hinduism too if I wanted an early religion, but we happen to be in the unique position this game of being able to get Buddhism, and that requires less of a research investment than Hinduism. That’s a good thing when there are oodles of worker techs to get researched.
Bezhukov said:
As for the early cottage gambit, I strongly disagree. You want to get as many tiles worked as quickly as possible, then dedicate some of those resources thereby gained to commerce.
For one thing, the palace provides 8 commerce for free, so the early cottage is only a marginal gain, comparable to the additonal city square that a quick second city would add. The first priority is a worker who can either chop workers/settler or develop food bonuses to quickly generate additional citizens. The first improvements we need are a farm on the corn, a mine to expedite troops when not growing, and whatever chops are necessary. When we get to our happiness limit, then will then be able to work a cottage or three, but that's a ways down the road.
I think you misunderstood my post. When I say that cottages are first priority for this starting terrain/civ, I mean from a research standpoint. I agree that irrigating the corn comes first, but we don’t have to research anything to do that. I would not, however, build a mine before cottaging the FP and either the wine or a grass/river.
I think you are vastly underestimating the power of cottages, especially for a financial civ. The limiting factor in how quickly you can win in Civ4 isn’t production, it is commerce/science. Having fully developed towns in the radius of a bureaucratic capitol with library/academy, etc. is extremely powerful, and well worth getting out your settlers and warriors a few turns later. With a different civ and different starting terrain, I might chop first like you suggest. But with this start and this civ, I think getting a few cottages going before the chops is a stronger opening strategy.
As for a 2nd city tile giving the same commerce as a cottage on a river for a financial civ, that is just wrong. And 3 commerce is not insignificant compared to the 8 commerce of the Palace. It is very significant, and only gets stronger as the game progresses.
Bezhukov said:
Oh, and are you serious about Caste System making border pops obsolete? Do you just forgo Bureaucracy, Vassalage, and Free Speech?
What are you saying here? Caste System can be used for artists which expand borders. And it is a labor civic, not a legal one like those you listed, so why would I have to forgo any of those?
I was just feeling a bit self conscious because I went back to read Obormot's post, and he said the same things I did but in about 10% of the words. Nice post
Many valiant quechas lost their lives fending off that invasion! 
), even when its clearly 
as in this case. 
But that is why I muddle on Monarch ,not dominate on Deity.
