Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[Bezhukov]

Pls leave the forests in the capital. It will be getting a forge soon which will also cost one health. If you must chop them, pls put the chops toward an aqueduct. Cori should have just whipped its granary (as did Ollan), unless I uploaded the wrong save. If not, go ahead and do this as they'll both regrow the pop quickly. The scouting workboat is intended for Ollan's crabs, so get it there in the next 5 turns or so.

The barb axe has been milling about up there for 10 turns. If he finally decides to approach, he's likely to take a whack at the quechas on the jungle hill, who should at least do some damage. If not, Cori has an axe in its queue that's already burned the "from scratch" penalty so can be whipped at any time if needed.

Since we're getting two luxes online soon, pls configure cities for growth - this may mean delaying Tia's priest for 5-7 turns. DO NOT build workers out of the capital until it reaches its happiness limit. Once we get the new citizens, we can quickly produce the needed workers/settlers. Macchu doesn't have any whip unhappiness, so could whip a library first before growing out - make sure to let it produce one turn before whipping to avoid the "from scratch" penalty or even better have Macchu whip a worker to fire up Ollan's iron tile, then build library as it grows out.

 

[leif erikson]

OK Bez, I left the forests for the time being in Cuzco. It is building a settler now, although I thought hard about an Aqueduct.

The Island is surrounded by ocean, so it leads nowhere.

The Barb Axe floated about, never coming close.

The turn log:
Pre-flight.
Bez says that he whipped a Granary in Cori but it is not in my save, so I do so. There are 39 of 60 hammers towards the Granary and the whip costs one citizen and we now have 69 of 60 hammers. So we got 30 Hammer for our citizen.
Reduce Science from 80% to 70%, Calendar is still due in 2 turns and we make +5 GPT (there were only 2 Gold in the treasury).
Cuzco is at the happiness limit and grows in 5 turns. I’ll start workers after the axe.
Ok, everything else looks OK, so off we go.

IBT
The Barb Axe heads away somewhere, thanks Bez, I feel better now.
Granary in Cori, starts a Library but I change it to Courthouse.

Turn1 – 375 BC
Worker1 to Dye near Cori.
Worker2 to chops hill forest near Cori for Courthouse.
Worker to Incense.
Missionary brings Confucianism to Cori.

IBT
Gibbon completes his greatest work, The Most Cultured Civs of the World.
We’re third.
We discover Calendar and start the road to Optics with Compass.
Axeman in Cuzco, start worker. Promote Axeman with Cover.

Turn 2 – 350 BC
Axe north to Cori.
Chop jungle on dye.
Start plantation on Incense.
There is no route away from island, start work boat for crab at Ollie.
Change research to 80%, Compass in 4 turns at –2 GPT and we have 12 in the treasury.

IBT
Complete Temple in Machu, start Library. City is at the happiness limit, grows in 4 turns and then we can whip it.
Chop completes and 37 hammers go to Cori.

Turn 3 – 325 BC
We’re now at –4 GPT with 3 turns to Compass. Change research to 70%, Compass in 3 turns and we make +4 GPT. 10 Gold in the treasury.

IBT

Turn 4 – 300 BC
Axe and Work boat move.
Decide to chop forest near Cori along the river for a cottage once city expands.

IBT

Turn 5 – 275 BC
Start a chop near Cori.

IBT
We discover Compass, start on Metal Casting.
Cuzco Worker, start another.

Turn 6 – 250 BC
Change research rate from 70% to 80%, Metal Casting in 6 turns at –4 per turn, 21 Gold in treasury.
New worker to grass on river at Cuzco, needs cottage.
Worker starts plantation on dye at Cori.

IBT

Turn 7 – 225 BC
Worker starts a cottage near Cuzco.
Axe arrives near Cori.
Work boat works crab.
Machu passes happiness limit, whip a library. 57 of the 90 hammers are in the bin. It costs us only 1 pop and we now have 117 of the 90 needed. We got 60 hammers for 1 pop. So, we are still unhappy, until the plantations complete.

IBT
Library in Machu, can have an axe in 1 turn and I take it.
The Barb Axe comes back into view.

Turn 8 – 200 BC
Move our Axe onto grass hill west of Cori.
Chop completes, move worker to help with dyes.
Whip a Lighthouse in Ollie. Lighthouse has 29 of 60 hammers. Whip costs 1 pop point and we get 60 hammers, now 89 of 60 needed.

IBT
Cuzco Worker, start a Settler. Couldn’t decide between Aqueduct and Settler. Finally chose settler.
Machu Axeman, start a Courthouse. Promote with cover.
Ollie Lighthouse, start a Library.

Turn 9 – 175 BC
Fortify Axe in Machu.
Incense connected.

IBT

Turn 10 – 150 BC
Dye connected.
Whip the Aqueduct in Tiwanaku. Currently 69 of 100 hammers. Whip costs 1 pop point and we get 60 hammers. Now have 129 of 100 hammers.
EDIT - Sorry, actually whipped the Aqueduct on the last turn, log has been corrected.

 

[Bezhukov]

Sounds good, although whipping in Tiawanku is probably suboptimal as it has so many nice tiles to work and also needs to be running a priest to get our shrine. Might as well get the forge there to help HG along, as the AI is usually slow to build it.

Turn 2 – 350 BC
Change research to 80%, Compass in 4 turns at –2 GPT

In my experience, this is remarkably fast research for this stage of the game, especially when isolated, so Brad's cottage heavy opening has paid dividends.

Although we lack copper, the Colossus is worth considering, as with our financial bonus it makes ocean tiles worth working (3 gold vs only one normally).

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds good, although whipping in Tiawanku is probably suboptimal as it has so many nice tiles to work and also needs to be running a priest to get our shrine. Might as well get the forge there to help HG along, as the AI is usually slow to build it.

To whip or not to whip, that is an interesting question. I whipped Tiwanaku for 2 reasons. The first is that all of the best tiles are being worked after the whip and we get a start on The Hanging Gardens with the 29 additional hammers (10% of hammers). The second is that it will grow next turn and we are mining the hill to get more hammers towards Hanging Gardens.

Currently it is pop 6, next turn 7. It is generating +7 food per turn, so should grow very quickly to the happiness limit, even when hiring a priest, which could be done next turn.

That is why I did it, but it still may not have been the best thing to do?

 

[Bezhukov]

With all that food, the extra unhappy can be annoying to work around. Once at max unhappy, might as well work the incense pure commerce tile (as well as the priest) to slow down the growth. If we weren't building wonders there, it would be perfect for settlers/workers.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Nice turns Leif, and great timing on those three 60-hammer chops! I think your choice to whip the aqueduct was definitely better than not whipping at all. The reasons you mention are good ones. However, I agree with Bez: the best choice of all would probably have been to save the whip to finish a forge before building the aqueduct/HG. That would have yielded more hammers overall.

In my experience, this is remarkably fast research for this stage of the game, especially when isolated, so Brad's cottage heavy opening has paid dividends.

We aren’t doing bad, but we are going slower than we could be. There are two primary reasons for that. One is slavery, the other is not having worked river cottages in Cuzco as soon as we could have. It may not seem like a big deal to lose a couple of beakers here due to the science slider and a couple there due to working a forest instead of a cottage, but those lost beakers add up very quickly.

Lost research in Cuzco due to tile management/lack of river cottages:

* In 850bc, we continued to run scientists instead of working river cottages. This resulted in a loss of about 5 beakers per turn (2 scientists = 10.5 bpt, 2 river/cottages = 15.75 bpt). This lasted 8 turns, to 650bc. We lost a total of 40 beakers during these turns.

* From 650-400bc, we were losing 5 beakers per turn due to working 1 cottage not on a river. (1 non-river cottage gives 1 commerce per turn which equates to 2.65 beakers, 1 river cottage yields 3 commerce per turn which equates to 7.875 beakers) We lost a total of 50 beakers during these turns.

* From 400-150bc, we were losing 13 bpt due to working 1 non-river hamlet and 1 river forest, rather than 2 river hamlets. That lost 130 beakers. At this point, we have lost 220 beakers just due to the management of two citizens, and we will be losing more no matter what we do. Thus far, all Cuzco has made in exchange for the lost research is 10 hammers from working the forest.

* At the current date, if we had built the two river cottages as early as we could have, they would now be turning into villages. In addition, the two cottages that Cuzco is working could have been developed by Machu and Olly instead. That would have allowed Cuzco to have a full complement of villages and towns the moment it reached size 12. As it is, we will not be able to do that and will miss out on more beakers down the road as well as those we have already lost.

Essentially, it seems to me that we are going to lose at least a few hundred more beakers if I don't cut those forests down and build cottages around Cuzco ASAP. Unless someone can show me that I am wrong, that is exactly what I intend to do on my turns.

Lost research due to slavery civic (ie, paying for expenses via the science slider rather than using Merchants)

1) 650-400bc. Losing around 8 bpt in the capitol for a total of 80 beakers.

2) 400-150bc. Losing around 10 bpt in the capitol for a total of 100 beakers. (This assumes all turns were spent at 80% research, but some were actually spent at 70%, so we have actually lost more than 100, I’m just not quite sure how many more so I will leave them out).

Adding the lost beakers above from cottages and slavery gives 400 beakers. Total lost research is actually higher than that though, because almost all techs get a 20% research bonus. We have actually missed out on around 475 beakers of research.

We gained back a few of these beakers due to building libraries and granaries via the whip, but not many! Thus far, here is what we have whipped:

700bc: 1 whip for 30? hammers (Tia library)
400bc: 1 whip for 30h? (Olly granary)
400bc: 1 whip for 30h (Cori granary)
225bc: 1 whip for 60h (Machu library)
200bc: 1 whip for 60h (Olly lighthouse)
150bc: 1 whip for 60h (Tiwan aqueduct)

For the two libraries, we got back around 20 beakers total, because both cities were only earning around 4bpt in the 10 or so extra turns they owned a library (the libraries were each giving us 1bpt). We haven’t gotten back any beakers for the rushed granaries or the lighthouse as of yet (we lost a citizen for the whip and gained a citizen for the granaries extra food), but we will eventually get a return on them. How much we get depends on how much earlier these whips allow us to get libraries, lighthouses and/or a courthouses constructed. I am hoping that we will get a library, for instance, at least 10 turns sooner than we otherwise would have, which would result in getting back around 40 beakers in each city, for 80 total. Unfortunately, there are too many variables for me to calculate how much earlier we will actually get these buildings. Maybe I will be able to make a guess by the end of my turns.

Obviously, I think not working the river cottages/chopping the forests in our capitol was a mistake: we lost a lot of beakers (220) due to that choice and we will continue to lose more.

The beakers we have lost for slavery (180), however, seems like it is worth it. Slavery has gotten us 270 whipping hammers that we wouldn’t have had if running Caste System. We have also already received 20 beakers back due to libraries, and we should get a good bit more than that back on the next two. We are also saving 4 gpt right now because slavery is a cheaper civic.

What do you guys think thus far: is slavery getting us to our goal of quick domination faster or slower? Also, am I missing any benefits/drawbacks of slavery in what I wrote above?

All in all, I think Bez was right about slavery being worth it , and I am definitely seeing a new strategy. Thanks Bez!

I do think we should still watch everything closely. When the next city is founded, for instance, it may quickly shift things back in favor of caste system.

I'll post thoughts on what I plan to do on my turns shortly so you guys can give feedback...

 

[Whomp]

lurker's comment: Wow. This thread has become the tutorial for me. Thanks fellas.

 

[Bezhukov]

Ah this stage of the game, you generally want to be obtaining citizens and using those citizens to develop either tiles (cottages), infra (mines/cottages), units (mines/forests), or new cities (mines/forests/food bonus tiles). Hiring specialists takes away from all of the above, especially the former (obtaining new citizens, i.e. city growth). If you happen to have more food than you can put to good use both specialists and slavery are options. The more brown one's map, the less this is the case.

The leak in my game is neglecting early commerce in pursuit of more citizens (I've recently learned that upkeep costs go up on a per citizens basis, BTW, not just per city), so its nice to be pushed in directions that correct that, but it feels like deliberately dedicating citizens to cottage duty is stronger than hiring specialists, unless one is playing on a small map (OCC-type approach) or has lots of grass and few hills.

 

[Bezhukov]

Brad, have you seen the latest GOTM? Might be fun to do an SG with it. Sure could use your help getting my early commerce to be non-craptastic!

 

[DJMGator13]

Apparently mm is still a vital part to the game. We lost 220 beakers, just to that. That is a tech. Slavery does seem to have its advantages if used for a limited time and for a specific purpose. If you are not using those whipped shields to help recover your lost bpt then I can see Slavery as not a good choice.

To borrow AlanH's favorite saying for CivIII "Food is Power" it looks like in cIV "Commerce is Power".

 

[leif erikson]

I knew I should have cut those forests!!

Nice analysis too. It is very interesting to see what you lose by the choices you make, versus what is gained. I am looking forward to seeing how Caste will help us along the research trail.

@Brad - It will be interesting to see your choice of what to use the hammers for should you do those chops. I thought about it but decided that getting the lux's on line and building a cottage on the grass tile next to the river in Cuzco was higher priority. In doing that, the trade off was a long term loss of gold, and beakers.

@Gator - I think food is still power because without it, you can't work those cottages. It appears to be more balanced in cIV than in cIII.

 

[Bezhukov]

I don't have the patience to do the math, but I'm not so sure we had the free pop to run the merchants it would have taken just to pay CS's upkeep. Tiawanku's the only city that's whipped much so far, and I don't think we want to be running merchants there as its our most productive city. If we were playing small pangea or something, maybe you could get away with using the capital for production and running merchants in your other cities, but not on this map.

Keep in mind that slavery (no upkeep) is cheaper than the civic you start the game with, so its not like there was any cost to running it (other than the opportunity cost of not running CS). If you want to see the value of slavery, play the 1000AD scenario that comes with the game as England. Ridiculous quantities of food and not much in the way of hammers.

Slavery is not especially strong on the map we're playing either (other than jump-starting cities), as its pretty brown, which means hammers are plentiful, and food at a premium,

 

[Bezhukov]

"I thought about it but decided that getting the lux's on line and building a cottage on the grass tile next to the river in Cuzco was higher priority."

Did we even have the citizens to work the suggested cottages on the former forest tiles yet?

 

[leif erikson]

"I thought about it but decided that getting the lux's on line and building a cottage on the grass tile next to the river in Cuzco was higher priority."

Did we even have the citizens to work the suggested cottages on the former forest tiles yet?

Yes, we do. There is a citizen working one of those forest tiles now. We have a citizen working a non-river cottage tile, we are working the mined plains hill and the corn tile.

Additionally, we could have Ollie working the plains hamlet that Cuzco is currently working and Machu working the grass hamlet Cuzco is currently working.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

To borrow AlanH's favorite saying for CivIII "Food is Power" it looks like in cIV "Commerce is Power".

With the limited cIV experience I have thus far, I think that is true. It gets awfully tricky though, because you almost have to be able to predict when you will win the game within a dozen turns or so in order to know How to maximize your commerce. Those tricky little cottages that take time to develop are more to blame than anything, but civics and techs certainly play a role as well.

If your are going for a late victory condition like space, for instance, then it can be quite worthwhile to pass up early commerce and hole up in order to build a devastating high-commerce core of 6 or so cities in the late game. Techs like Printing Press and civics like Universal Suffrage/Emancipation can easily overcome and surpass not building a few cottages in the early game. Conversely, if you are going for an early conquest or domination in which you don't go far into the tech tree, then every single commerce you pass up comes at a high price.

I don't have the patience to do the math, but I'm not so sure we had the free pop to run the merchants it would have taken just to pay CS's upkeep. Tiawanku's the only city that's whipped much so far, and I don't think we want to be running merchants there as its our most productive city.

Actually, we could be paying the maintenence, civic and inflation costs of our entire civ with only the citizens we have whipped in cities other than Tiwanaku plus 3 more merchants hired elsewhere.

You are right, however, in saying that running Merchants would be costing us in food/growth and hammers. I tried to make a rough estimate (and I mean VERY rough) of how many citizens we would have lost to date, and I don't think we would be behind, because we are also losing citizens in slavery due to whipping. Basically, it seems like the pop loss due to whipping is working out to be a wash vs. running Merchants in Caste System--in this game/map/civ. Except for the whipped hammers we are getting, of course. But I could easily be missing a variable, and might be wrong.

In the next 20 turns, however, I think Slavery will pull ahead a bit in population. If we had been running Caste Sytem these last 20 turns, for instance, several of our cities would run up against the happiness limit soon. I would normally compensate for this by building cities to share tiles plus claim additional food bonuses (the fish on this map). That isn't the greatest solution in the world, because, as you have pointed out, that jacks up our expenses. In Slavery, of course, we just whip that extra food into buildings and such. I'm not even going to TRY to figure out which approach would work out better ahead of time by using Math, because I would be at it all night.

At a guess, I think the key moment is going to come in around 26 turns. That is about the time our caravels will be meeting other civs (Optics will be done in around 16 turns). If they trade us currency, then I think the CS approach will pull ahead, because it would have more cities and--all of a sudden--there would be no need to run merchants. We could trade around a tech for lots of gold and run at a deficit for quite a while. If the AIs don't have currency, however, then I think the slavery/low expenses approach will be superior.

It shall be interesting to see how things turn out.

Brad, have you seen the latest GOTM? Might be fun to do an SG with it.

That would be fun--as well as a great way for us to continue improving! But I missed GoTM3 due to my damnable reading habit , so I don't want to miss GoTM4 too. I am definitely going to finish and submit that one.

 

[Bezhukov]

I C. The limiting factor on my turns was the lack of workers - i.e. the workers we did have had higher priority tasks (connecting resources). One reason its a good idea to build worker first in new cities (helped along by a chop if possible), so that the original worker can return to the capital to get it up to speed.

 

[Bezhukov]

Last I checked, currency was only a five-turn research, so even if they don't have it, it should be easily obtainable. Maybe Macchu should use its available whip on a settler? Again, if we grow Ollan out properly, it should be able to whip the Great Lighthouse or Colossus within the next 20 turns or so.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

It will be interesting to see your choice of what to use the hammers for should you do those chops. I thought about it but decided that getting the lux's on line and building a cottage on the grass tile next to the river in Cuzco was higher priority. In doing that, the trade off was a long term loss of gold, and beakers.

You and Bez made the right decision in connecting the luxuries and building the river/cottage rather than chopping the forests! Chopping the forests before those two items would have lost us more beakers during your turns.

There are a few roads, however, that we could do without for a while.

In order to save all the beakers I listed above, we would have needed to cut down 1 forest tile and cottage 2 river tiles 30 turns ago. Basically, we would have been delaying chops and roads in exchange for the beakers.

@Bez: I'm trying to figure out which wonder to build (GL or Colossus) as I write. It's a tough decision. I think I'm going to have to map out our exact tech path before I can decide...

 

[Bezhukov]

We'll probably want to obsolete Colossus very quickly, so I'd say GL is better.

 

[a space oddity]

lurker's comment: Great thread gentlemen!
If I ever find the time to get into playing some more serious cIV, I will start by reading one this again.