Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[bradleyfeanor]

Good luck with both games!

 

[leif erikson]

Go get them Gator!!

 

[DJMGator13]

I’ve paused my turnset to ask a question.

Monty’s not as weak as we suspected and now I know why he ran his troops away from us. They were regrouping and he is on a counterattack. So far I have killed 7 Aztec units in defense but a SOD which I thought did not exist anymore, currently surrounds us. There are 14 Aztec units on one tile SE of Tlatecoco. That SOD had 16 units in it last turn but not all of them moved to the same tile. Should we sign a ceasefire, which he will pay us for or see how well maceman defend? If we can destroy all these openfield units Monty should be toast.

The Log
Turn 160 (1000 AD)
Tech learned: Guilds
Corihuayrachina finishes: Maceman
Huamanga grows: 9

Turn 161 (1010 AD)
Research begun: Drama
Corihuayrachina begins: Maceman
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Galleon E (Galleon) promoted: Flanking I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Machu Picchu grows: 8

Turn 162 (1020 AD)
Tiwanaku begins: The Hagia Sophia
Tiwanaku begins: Pikeman
Tech learned: Drama
Machu Picchu finishes: Maceman
Ollantaytambo grows: 11

Turn 163 (1030 AD)
Research begun: Gunpowder
Machu Picchu begins: Work Boat
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Maceman defeats (4.40/8): Aztec Archer
Maceman defeats (6.96/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Maceman defeats (6.08/8): Aztec Spearman
Buddhism has spread: Texcoco
Captured Texcoco (Montezuma)
Tiwanaku finishes: Pikeman
Machu Picchu finishes: Work Boat
Maceman defeats (4.40/8): Aztec Axeman
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Axeman
Maceman defeats (6.96/8): Aztec Chariot

Turn 164 (1040 AD)
Machu Picchu begins: Maceman
Tech learned: Music
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Maceman defeats (5.92/8): Aztec Jaguar
Corihuayrachina finishes: Maceman
Maceman defeats (4.16/8): Aztec Axeman

Turn 165 (1050 AD)
Corihuayrachina begins: Maceman
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Machu Picchu grows: 9
Huamanga finishes: Forge
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman defeats (4.40/8): Aztec Axeman
Maceman defeats (2.16/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman loses to: Aztec Chariot (2.88/4)

Turn 166 (1060 AD)
Huamanga begins: Maceman
Maceman defeats (7.04/8): Aztec Jaguar
Texcoco begins: Courthouse
Maceman defeats (4.48/8): Aztec Spearman
Catapult promoted: Barrage II
Cuzco finishes: Market
Machu Picchu finishes: Maceman
Ollantaytambo grows: 12
Corihuayrachina grows: 12

Turn 167 (1070 AD)
Cuzco begins: Knight
Machu Picchu begins: Knight
Maceman promoted: Combat II
Maceman promoted: March
Catapult loses to: Aztec Jaguar (4.15/5)
Gator: Monty is not a complete whimp - there are 19 units around Tlatecoc

Here's the Save file and a look at the current situation.

So far I have killed about 7 other Aztec units in defense, so the maces defend well but I'm not sure they can hold out against 19 units. I have a small stack of our own that is loaded with cats but it requires 3 moves on roads in neutral territory to be able to attack the Aztec SOD and I'm not sure they can make it.

 

[Bezhukov]

No, it's a (fairly) common weakness I've noted in the AI. Sometimes it can pay to hold off a seige for a couple turns in anticipation of the AI doing this. I've had archers leave an early game capital beseiged by axes, for instance.

My guess is in this case he's preparing a naval invasion force somewhere else.

You guys better hope Nappy doesn't find a friend in Mansa, or Nappy might get saved from his econ hell, and Mansa from his resource one. I don't believe you have a numbers advantage over Nappy, and surely you don't have a production edge. As you're now cashing in the commerce edge, you have to rely entirely on the players tactical advantage.

Which should, unfortunately, be plenty.

Oops, the above posted before the update. I see my advice applied before I'd feared it would be needed.

 

[Gaspar~]

Depends on your relative health, but if the maces are in decent shape, 4 should be enough to hold off that backward stack.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Your stack of cats/macemen/pikeman can reach his stack this very turn. Attack that stack with everything you have, inside the city and outside it. Just be sure not to attack with the units you have inside the city when there is only one enemy on the tile (you don't want our defenders stranded outside the city).

I expect we will probably lose half our cats, but that will pretty much be the end of Monty.

Edit: If you need any detailed "order of attack" recommendation, just lemme know.

You will lose a few units in this attack, but it is very unlikely that Monty will get the city, and he will be utterly decimated. What units he has left will be easy pickings from all the collateral damage from the cats.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I can't tell how long your units in the city have been fortified. If it is long enough to receive a good "fortification bonus", say 3 or more turns, then you might want to attack with only 2 of them, if necessary, and let the others stay fortified.

Edit: I now see they have only been fortified for 1 turn: go ahead and attack with all the cats, and unless you have terrible, terrible luck, his stack will be really hurting. Then attack with all the units in the city and the macemen/pikeman down south, choosing the best odds battles for the units in the city. His stack will be toast, and those few remaining chariots won't have a chance of taking the city.

It looks like your turns have gone very well! Great Scientist is due on the exact turn we can start researching Chemistry, so Grenadiers are due in 4-5 turns.

Don't forget to utilize music/culture production in order to expand city borders like in Tlatelolco: we don't want our new acquisitions to starve. We will need those guys for whipping courts. Those 14+ distance maintenance costs will be a killer until we get that FP built! Also, Cori can now get started on the Heroic Epic.

It looks like we are developing quite a foreign relations tangle since Mansa is now Nappy and Monty's "worst enemy." In the long run though, that is probably more of a benefit than a detriment. Try to do what you can to keep Nappy happy, but it is probably only a matter of time before he decides to cancel our deals.

That darn Shrine still hasn't done anything for us. Oh well, at least we can start building the monasteries/missionaries in a couple of turns.

 

[Bezhukov]

Brad, don't ever play an SG with LK; I don't think he'd survive the stress. On the other hand, if you played with Romeo, I could see you two attempting to conquer the world with a single warrior.

 

[Bede]

Well this is certainly a far cry from romeo's lonely warrior. My advice to you Gator is to go on the tactical offensive. Hit 'em with the cats till you can hurt 'em with the maces either from the city or from the reinforcement stack. Also there are troops on a boat that can reach the front this turn to support the reinforcement column and one of them is a very handy pike (give him a "shock" promotion when he lands and zip him up to the front)

You should be able to eliminate the attacking group this turn or next. But most importantly they will be severely crippled this turn...

 

[DJMGator13]

Finished up the turnset. We destroyed the Aztec SOD. Our cats did major damage and we have 3 left. Most of the troops are healed now and we are advancing again. GS came in as expected and we are 1 turn from Chemistry, 2 turns from having the Hagia Sophia and 4 turns from having the Heroic Epic. By accident I’m building a musket in Cori, should have been a mace. Good thing we didn’t bother with the switch just to try to convert Mansa. He just discovered Divine Right (on the IBT to 1100AD) and now has Islam. He wants to trade for Astronomy and will give us DR, Mediation and Archery, I did not make the trade because I wasn’t sure if we wanted to give him galleons.

The rest of the log
Turn 167 (1070 AD)
Catapult loses to: Aztec Jaguar (1.60/5)
Catapult defeats (0.60/5): Aztec Jaguar
Catapult loses to: Aztec Jaguar (0.55/5)
Catapult loses to: Aztec Jaguar (0.90/5)
Catapult defeats (2.90/5): Aztec Axeman
Gator: cats did major damage to the Aztec SOD

Maceman defeats (6.24/8): Aztec Axeman
Gator: 1st mace from city wins and promos
Maceman promoted: Combat II
Maceman defeats (6.64/8): Aztec Axeman
Maceman defeats (5.92/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman promoted: Shock
Maceman defeats (5.76/8): Aztec Chariot
Pikeman defeats (3.30/6): Aztec Spearman
Pikeman promoted: Medic I
Pikeman promoted: March
Tech learned: Gunpowder
Zu Chongzhi (Great Scientist) born in Cuzco
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman defeats (6.96/8): Aztec Jaguar
Maceman defeats (5.92/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman defeats (4.64/8): Aztec Jaguar
Maceman defeats (4.48/8): Aztec Spearman
Maceman defeats (3.84/8): Aztec Jaguar
Maceman defeats (6.64/8): Aztec Spearman

Turn 168 (1080 AD)
Research begun: Chemistry
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Spearman
Maceman defeats (8.00/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman defeats (6.96/8): Aztec Chariot
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: Barrage II
Cuzco begins: Heroic Epic
Tiwanaku grows: 13
Corihuayrachina finishes: Maceman
Huamanga finishes: Maceman
Islam founded in a distant land

Turn 169 (1090 AD)
Corihuayrachina begins: Musketman
Huamanga begins: Maceman
Gator: mm Cuzco for hammers to speed up Heroic Epic
Gator: canceled the pig for gold deal to be able to do pigs for fur with Mao
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Maceman defeats (5.92/8): Aztec Axeman
Maceman promoted: City Raider III
Maceman defeats (5.92/8): Aztec Jaguar
Maceman promoted: City Raider II
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Ollantaytambo finishes: Courthouse

Turn 170 (1100 AD)
Ollantaytambo begins: Maceman
Maceman promoted: City Raider III


The save

We may want to split our stack but with only 3 cats I kept them together. Once Cuzco complete the Heroic Epic it needs to be mm for food.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Excellent turns Gator: you made mincemeat of Monty. Your cats, with all those barrage promotions, were well suited to do the job I might add.

WW is now setting in I see: not a surprise given the recent bloodbath. When we get back gold with the city we are about to take, that will help things (+2 happy with forge). We still have quite a few cities to capture though, so WW will get worse yet. Setting the culture slider to 10% is probably a good idea for now, but it might also be a good idea to build theaters in the cities that have 2 or more WW unhappies.

You have an interesting decision coming Bede: do you want to turn off research after Chemistry and start upgrading immediately, or would you rather research Paper, then turn off research?

We are hurting a bit for Cats. I would consider delaying the other military builds until we have at least 3 ready to go. Eventually I would shoot for having 4 travelling with each stack.

Once we take Teotihuacan (or post a boat/sentry outside the city), we will no longer need to leave units in captured Aztec cities for defensive purposes: at least not in those cities far from the front. Teotihuacan looks like his last port city, so he will not be able to reach us by boat. I imagine we might also want to break up our ship chain after we take a few more cities and move 3 or 4 boats to our west coast. That way they will be ready to land units on Mao or Nappy around the same time we are finishing up with Monty.

We can also build culture (you can select culture to build just like you could select wealth in civ3) in captured cities in order to expand borders and end the starvation cycle: I would make getting the 1st border expansion the first priority of every captured city.

 

[Bede]

Nice fight 'Gator.

Got it.

Being an intel junkie I like the idea of Paper for maps. It just gives me a warm and fuzzy to look around and see everything I need to know. And I don't think we have an immediate need to upgrade to grenadiers for the demise of the Aztec. Will know more when I look at the save.

And I like going to the theatre, so building a few Pallys won't be a burden.

Do we have a need for any more Great Peoples?

 

[Bezhukov]

Good show, Gator!

I guess maces DO kill Aztecs more effectively than harbors.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Do we have a need for any more Great Peoples?

An engineer or two out of Tiwan for the FP, Versailles and/or steel research would be nice, and GAs are always welcome.

I guess maces DO kill Aztecs more effectively than harbors.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice job chewing up Monty's units Gator!!

Those Cats and Maces sure did a job on 'em. The Cats especially, it appears. I am still trying to get used to attacking things with bombard units. I hate losing so many on them!!

 

[Bezhukov]

Just think of it as an investment. Brad's strategy not only makes use of the familiar strategy of comparing long-term benefits with short-term costs, i.e. why research and build factories when there are not enough turns left to recoup the investment, he also cashes in low-hanging fruit that would obviously pay for itself (the harbors, for instance) within the expected time horizon of the game in order to achieve an earlier win date. He attempts to match the point where all his resources are exhausted to the point where he has achieved his objective, leaving little margin for error.

I don't happen to be a fan, but it is impressive to watch in action.

 

[leif erikson]

Just think of it as an investment. Brad's strategy not only makes use of the familiar strategy of comparing long-term benefits with short-term costs, i.e. why research and build factories when there are not enough turns left to recoup the investment, he also cashes in low-hanging fruit that would obviously pay for itself (the harbors, for instance) within the expected time horizon of the game in order to achieve an earlier win date. He attempts to match the point where all his resources are exhausted to the point where he has achieved his objective, leaving little margin for error.

I don't happen to be a fan, but it is impressive to watch in action.

Isn't this what a best date game is all about? Trying to use everything you can gather to gain the most advantage to push the victory date? I think it is why the goal one sets is so important, because if you are playing to win by best date, you must make decisions concerning what you need and what you don't and what gives the best advantage and what is "nice to have". Those decisions determine whether you win a GOTM or not (of course, I wouldn't really know, but have read about it! ). And one can lose by miscalculation... It is the drama of GOTM...

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Just think of it as an investment. Brad's strategy not only makes use of the familiar strategy of comparing long-term benefits with short-term costs, i.e. why research and build factories when there are not enough turns left to recoup the investment, he also cashes in low-hanging fruit that would obviously pay for itself (the harbors, for instance) within the expected time horizon of the game in order to achieve an earlier win date. He attempts to match the point where all his resources are exhausted to the point where he has achieved his objective, leaving little margin for error.

That is a concise, accurate description of the way I play all right! But what I would like to understand is why you don't like playing this way--at least once in a while? You are obviously very good at the game, so it seems you would enjoy playing it on the "edge" where you squeeze every little bit off the date that you can. I know you said earlier that you aren't much of a warmongerer, but you have still been able to offer plenty of good advice, so there is at least a bit of a monger inside!

I am hoping that our next game has a goal that forces us much deeper into the tech tree. I haven't been able to play much civ in the last two months, and my experience with the latter part of the tree is woefully lacking.

 

[DJMGator13]

An engineer or two out of Tiwan for the FP, Versailles and/or steel research would be nice, and GAs are always welcome.

I think I hired the engineer when the city grew, late in my turnset, but please check.

I am still trying to get used to attacking things with bombard units.

Cats are very powerful in this version. I've been using mine mainly for bombing city defenses, but this illustrates their power. It took 6 cats to reduce that stack of 14 units and 3 of the cats survived. I left 2 of the maces in the city fortified because they were already receiving the 25% bonus for being fortified. I'm just glad I moved that second stack of cats and maces to the hill a few turns prior. If they were still in Texcoco they would not have reached the battle. So it cost us 4 cats to kill 19 Aztec units, almost a 5 to 1 ratio.

Without the cats that battle my have gone in their favor, just due to their numbers. Even though our maces are 8 most of their units were 5's and they could easily afford to take 3 units to kill our one. It would have left them weak but it would have wiped out about 40% of our attack forces.

EDIT: I also used the promo after battle trick to gain some quick healing. It does not take you back to 100% but does help.

 

[Bezhukov]

"But what I would like to understand is why you don't like playing this way"

Let me count the ways!

I guess the first thing is, my actual retail life is made more miserable every day by an inability to delay gratification, both my own and that of those around me. We'd have no gratification to delay or hurry if our forefathers (and mothers and sisters and brothers and third cousins...) had not been exceeding good in an area where we seem to be exceedingly bad. A nation of trust-funders, if you will. [End of rant intended to provide insight into my prejudices].

More to the point, its uncivilized. Its a strategy predicated on an artifice entirely created by the game itself (the end date), rather than the underlying reality the game so ably models. In actual civilization, there is no end date.

Even more to the point, it leads to poor play on the part of those less able than Brad (and folks like Moonsinger) to exactly judge the tradeoffs involved. I was subjected to more 20-turn sword builds in CivIII than I'd like to recall. The general heuristic that seems to be often enough arrived at is "the less buildings I build, the more powerful I'll be," which in many cases, is exactly wrong.

Finally, with a new game on offer, one that offers an untold variety of new strategic options even for achieving the narrow aims of the warmonger, it is tiresome to be constrained to the same old same old, instead of making a concerted attempt to explore the new. I still suspect that there may even be earlier dates (gasp!) available to strategies that make use of continuing to exploit a commerce advantage, than those available to the "cashing in commerce" one we inherited from CivIII.

So, to sum up, make love not war, dude!