Gator02 - Learning to Walk

[Methos]

EDIT: I also used the promo after battle trick to gain some quick healing. It does not take you back to 100% but does help.

lurker's comment: This works great if the unit was built with a barracks and the battle gained him another xp to reach 5. Two promotions really speed up the healing. I rarely promote anymore unless I feel its needed to win the battle.

For those number crunchers out there, which is better; promoting before or after? Before they may not lose as much health, but take longer to heal. After, you could lose more health due to not being as strong but you'll heal faster.

 

[Bezhukov]

I like to fight as many >95% battles as I can, in order to need less units, and so that the units I do build stick around long enough to gain interesting promotions. So I tend to promote before, then rely on medics, march, and patience in advancing to retain health.

 

[leif erikson]

More to the point, its uncivilized. Its a strategy predicated on an artifice entirely created by the game itself (the end date), rather than the underlying reality the game so ably models. In actual civilization, there is no end date.

But in the real world, civilizations have grown and died, there are "end dates", if you will. They come for many reasons: conquest, disease, natural disasters, assimilation and new technologies. Some civilizations live on in others, and who knows when, or if, an actual end date may come for all civilaizations. I'm afraid history shows us that no matter how civilized we think we are, we aren't!

Even more to the point, it leads to poor play on the part of those less able than Brad (and folks like Moonsinger) to exactly judge the tradeoffs involved. I was subjected to more 20-turn sword builds in CivIII than I'd like to recall. The general heuristic that seems to be often enough arrived at is "the less buildings I build, the more powerful I'll be," which in many cases, is exactly wrong.

Yes, I can be an example of this. However, I like to think of it as a learning process.

Finally, with a new game on offer, one that offers an untold variety of new strategic options even for achieving the narrow aims of the warmonger, it is tiresome to be constrained to the same old same old, instead of making a concerted attempt to explore the new. I still suspect that there may even be earlier dates (gasp!) available to strategies that make use of continuing to exploit a commerce advantage, than those available to the "cashing in commerce" one we inherited from CivIII.

I think this is because of the goal we set for ourselves. Fast domination. I think we all agree that there will be a different goal for a next game. Hopefully, we shall discover the richness in it and I hope you are there to lead us to this land.

So, to sum up, make love not war, dude!

If only the world really lived this throughout history! But this has certainly not been the case.

 

[Bezhukov]

"But this has certainly not been the case."

Not always, but neither has the alternative. The currently fashionable idea, however, that all trust and cooperation is "naive" and weak, when it has in reality throughout history been the source of the greatest and most lasting strength, pains me to consider it. A bitter, bitter irony.

The coldest-eyed, hardest-hearted realist understands that without ideals around which to rally forces he is dead, and not in the long run...

"But in the real world, civilizations have grown and died, there are "end dates", if you will."

But we mortals are not given to know when that will be. And the hedonistic nihilist who supposes he does and thus neglects to provide
for his posterity what those before provided him deserves his unhappy fate.

A closing thought for those concerned that I am merely a bitter old man (instead of an old man with a capacity for recognizing bitter realities for what they are), and then I'll end the rant:

"The one infallible symptom of greatness is the capacity for double vision. They know that all absolutes are heretical but that one can only act in a given circumstance by assuming one. Knowing themselves, they are skeptical about human nature but not despairing; they know that they are weak but not helpless: perfection is impossible but one can be or do better worse. They are unconventional but not bohemian; it never occurs to them to think in terms of convention. Conscious of achievement and vocation they are conscious of how little depends on their free will and how much they are vehicles for powers they can never fully understand but to which they can listen. Objective about themselves with the objectivity of the truly humble, they often shock the conceited out of their wits: e.g. Goethe's remark 'What do the Germans want? Have they not me?' Knowing that the only suffering that can be avoided is the attempt to escape from suffering, they are funny and enjoy life."

W.H. Auden, "The Double Focus: Sandburg's Lincoln" (Common Sense, March 1940)

 

[Bezhukov]

Yes, fast domination was the goal. As far as I am aware, the victory condition called for by the game is "domination", sans fast. If you need the added challenge of speed, I'd just as soon up the difficulty level. Picking on someone one's own size and all that.

 

[PublicEnemy]

But we mortals are not given to know when that will be. And the hedonistic nihilist who supposes he does and thus neglects to provide
for his posterity what those before provided him deserves his unhappy fate.

In other words, take the long route instead of going for fast domination, and definitely DO NOT turn off research at Chemistry!

 

[Bezhukov]

"take the long route instead of going for fast domination,"

Or continue to build strength on all fronts until all our enemies are utterly left without hope. All your commerce are belong to us! Muhahaha!

"an actual end date may come for all civilaizations."

I hold out hope that this will come after the creation of new universes and civilizations to populate them, human or otherwise...

 

[leif erikson]

But we mortals are not given to know when that will be. And the hedonistic nihilist who supposes he does and thus neglects to provide
for his posterity what those before provided him deserves his unhappy fate.

Unfortunately, this sounds too much like me when I play this game!

A closing thought for those concerned that I am merely a bitter old man (instead of an old man with a capacity for recognizing bitter realities for what they are)/snip/

I hardly think this of you Bez. I must say though that you do have style!

EDIT

Yes, fast domination was the goal. As far as I am aware, the victory condition called for by the game is "domination", sans fast. If you need the added challenge of speed, I'd just as soon up the difficulty level. Picking on someone one's own size and all that.

If this was the goal, all we had to do was go and take on Mansa, he woiuld have been more our size?

 

[Bezhukov]

"If this was the goal, all we had to do was go and take on Mansa, he woiuld have been more our size?"

As we were playing a financial civ on Monarch with a master of the game (Brad), it should come as no surprise that there is no one our size (had Mansa not been isolated, he would have been closer).

If the AI manages to avoid early war and starts with reasonable tiles, I've been finding plenty of civs my size on Emperor lately. Always fun to discover that what one supposed was talent and skill was instead largely blind luck.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

I like to fight as many >95% battles as I can, in order to need less units, and so that the units I do build stick around long enough to gain interesting promotions. So I tend to promote before, then rely on medics, march, and patience in advancing to retain health.

In most early domination games, I shoot for a high survivability rate as well--or at least I do with my early assault forces. Production is usually very limited in the early game, and to build units that die quickly then have to be replaced is usually a poor strategy. Generally, it would be better to build infrastructure to gain a tech edge than it would be to build troops that constantly have to be replaced. An exception would be a game where the dom limit can be reached by sheer number of troops, and the AIs do not threaten to technologically acquire a military unit that is essentially an "army killer." Like say a longbow if your best unit is a horse archer. (For a perfect example of a game that can be won through sheer numbers, see deluche's game save file for GoTM3 )

We have done a good job of building a durable initial assault force in this game: our macemen are overpowered vs. the Aztecs, and our grenadiers will be overpowered vs. everybody. As the game goes on and domination nears, however, I think speed becomes more valuable than survival rate. So in most games, I will start building mounted units once my "durable" assault force has acquired about half the land needed for domination. By the end game, I usually am building nothing but fast units.

That might be a good strategy for us to use in this game. We will need at least one "durable" force (grenadiers and catapults) on either shore of the big continent. But the closer we get to the domination limit, the more knights we may want to build. We will have to keep a close eye on the tech of Mao and Nappy though. If they are able to build/upgrade to muskets in significant numbers, then we will have to keep building our grenadiers.

I tend to not value the March promotion as much as others: there always seems to be an attack/defense promotion I want more. I pile on the City Raider, Combat, and Shock/Cover/Formation promotions.

As far as I am aware, the victory condition called for by the game is "domination", sans fast. If you need the added challenge of speed, I'd just as soon up the difficulty level. Picking on someone one's own size and all that.

I'm all for upping the difficulty in the next game! Like you mentioned, Emperor (and Immortal) AIs are quite a bit more challenging than Monarch ones. Unless I draw a very strong start on Emperor level, my warfare tends to be fought with successively more powerful units. Game plans also have to be more flexible at high difficulties, because the AIs are more likely to do things that demand an alteration of strategy. As I recall, using “successively more powerful units” and “strategy flexibility” are both concepts you advocated we use in this game. I think that means you and I will have fewer conflicts regarding gameplan at higher difficulties.

I think I understand where you are coming from now regarding the early dom strategy I wanted to go with in this game. From a philosophical standpoint, I agree with you—and that is my standard response to anyone with enough intellectual taste to quote Auden, BTW. So, like Leif, I also think you have style. To my great dismay however, I have never suffered from instant gratification—quite the opposite, which might be why I like to grind things to pulp beneath my heel.

The only time I consider the "I am the steward of my children's future" factor in Civ is when I play a "Utopia" type variant where I attempt to keep the world as peaceful and advanced as possible while reaching Alpha Centauri ASAP as well. That means taking care of the advancement of my civ as well as all the AIs. I do like playing that type of game sometimes, especially with all the new options we have in civ4. In fact, I suggested that we start an award for this type of win in the GoTM, but nothing seemed to come of it. I think it would be the untimate "builder" game. Maybe someone will be able to design a “Utopia” award (as well as a better scoring system), once the SDK comes out.

Finally, with a new game on offer, one that offers an untold variety of new strategic options even for achieving the narrow aims of the warmonger, it is tiresome to be constrained to the same old same old, instead of making a concerted attempt to explore the new. I still suspect that there may even be earlier dates (gasp!) available to strategies that make use of continuing to exploit a commerce advantage, than those available to the "cashing in commerce" one we inherited from CivIII.

I want to pursue variety and "the new" just as you do. I would consider turning off research and attacking at the same point in every game to be excruciatingly boring—but I feel the same way about leaving research on in every game. Hopefully, we can come up with something completely original and brilliant for the next game.

 

[Bede]

Hard drive failure has left me on the sidelines.......so skip until I check back in

 

[leif erikson]

Hard drive failure has left me on the sidelines.......so skip until I check back in

Sorry to hear that Bede. Hope you can get it up and running without too much delay.

Does that put me back in the saddle? Better have a detailed look!

(For a perfect example of a game that can be won through sheer numbers, see deluche's game save file for GoTM3 )

Wow, just had a look! It looks like he only built one other city besides his capital! Never even got to Samurai!

The graph is very interesting, and very enlightening. You sure can see what order he took them out in. Amazing. The only units he ever built were Axes and Horse Archers.

 

[Bezhukov]

"The only time I consider the "I am the steward of my children's future" factor in Civ is when I play a "Utopia" type variant where I attempt to keep the world as peaceful and advanced as possible while reaching Alpha Centauri ASAP as well."

I'm a bit puzzled by this statement. Stewardship is the ultimate in pragmatism. It doesn't imply some soft-hearted utopianism. Ask the Bear, he'll tell you.

 

[Bezhukov]

"I tend to not value the March promotion as much as others: there always seems to be an attack/defense promotion I want more. I pile on the City Raider, Combat, and Shock/Cover/Formation promotions."

Units with March have a funny way of sticking around long enough to gain those other promotions too...

 

[DJMGator13]

Roster
bradleyfeanor - saw the end come for his Tide, valiant try with only 7 scholarship players
Gator - celebrating a Sweet Sixteen
Bede - looking for a new hard drive
Bezhukov - skip, at his request
leif - Up again, unless Bez wants it

@Bede - we'll put you at the top of the list when you get the techno part worked out. Hopefully you had your important files backed up.

 

[leif erikson]

Roster
bradleyfeanor - saw the end come for his Tide, valiant try with only 7 scholarship players
Gator - celebrating a Sweet Sixteen
Bede - looking for a new hard drive
Bezhukov - skip, at his request
leif - Up again, unless Bez wants it

What do you say Bez? A little combat? Please let me know if you wish to continue your skip request.

Otherwise, I have it but will not be able to start until tomorrow evening. Got a meeting tomorrow and I have a presentation to organize... Work getting in the way of civ, really!!

 

[Bezhukov]

Thanks for the offer - means a lot, no kidding - but I would be more than useless in achieving the objectives the team has chosen for itself.

 

[Methos]

Thanks for the offer - means a lot, no kidding - but I would be more than useless in achieving the objectives the team has chosen for itself.

lurker's comment: Hence the 'Learning to Walk'.

Take her for a spin Bez, this group (you included) is excellent at helping each other.

 

[leif erikson]

It sounds to me like going for Paper is a good idea, as well as a few Theaters in our home core.

Is it better to switch to Caste and use Merchants to keep the Gold supply up or keep Slavery and use the extra pop to rush courthouses? Our maintenance costs are 49 GPT for city maintenance and 41 GPT for Civic upkeep.

EDIT - Is there anything we need to trade for? I would probably trade with Mursa but not so much with the others. Mursa has Stone for sale and we could trade wines for it. I can't think of any techs we need?

 

[Bezhukov]

Again, thx for the offers, but I didn't spill all that electronic ink just to see the pretty pixels. I'm quite blissful in this particular ignorance.

As for techs, I would think a financial civ would at least build its half price banks at some point, even if only to more effectively pay the upkeep bills on the troops.