Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Ozbenno, Nov 2, 2011.
It was a test and we have learned from it
Although a Duel - Epic might be fun
Hah, no worries. It was still interesting. Once.
The game really can't handle 150+ cities. So, I think Standard size Time Victories are probably a bad idea at all. But I think an Emperor+ Time Victory/Quick/Small would be fun for the additional challenge of having to deal with the AI.
Can we post non-ancient era start suggestions?
The HOF doesn't have tables for this. I've suggested it, but it didn't get much traction. I'm not sure how much work it would be for the HOF team. It should definitely be excluded from VVV. I'm personally in favor of the idea. I actually enjoy classical-industrial starts. They're broken but fun. Modern+ starts are horribly broken though. If you want to try one, there's a GoTM from a while back. Basically it's a race to XCOM.
I think a high difficulty Austria game could be pretty fun. Something like
Austria, Immortal+, Small Continents, Standard, SV
I thought that the December 2014 Minor, and Major should have been flip flopped.
The Majors current best is 71 turns, which means attempts were completely fairly quickly, and did not require a full month. If you look at the Minor thread, there was not a lot of strategy comments, or write ups for completed games. Why? Not a lot of interest because a Science Victory takes a long time, and there was only 14 days to attempt.
I would like to go "On record" as saying I support this suggestion by Cromagnus.
The Version needs to be updated,...18.104.22.1686 has been out for over 2 months now, and the new version dramatically changed the Tradition and Piety trees. It needs to be changed, so that each player has a equal chance of succeeding at Gauntlet challenges.
I have asked that it be changed at the opening of the Gauntlet threads, and there seems to be a lot of support, and confusion on why it hasn't been changed yet.
What about the HOF, it is going to very hard for new submissions to better a SV8 submission on games where the Tradition tree is the dominant path to victory...Is there any way to level the playing field?
I agree heartily with your first two points (Make Majors the long games!), but I don't think the above point is much of a big deal. Most people play by Steam, I think, which pretty much autoupdates, and I don't think anyone playing these regularly still is unpatched. The gauntlets want to be inclusive, so they probably give some time before requiring the new patch in the case of infrequent players.
As for the HoF, it's definitely not that big a deal. You can't be changing parameters and such for every patch. There will be new HoF entries using the current patch and it's not like there were a billion science games in the database anyway. I also think the change to Tradition didn't nerf pure Tradition as much as people think-- it nerfed the hybrid Liberty/Tradition strategies more. I just beat a HoF gold medal Science victory time using pure Tradition with the new patch, so it's not like it can't be done.
Just my two cents on these ideas
It makes it less viable to skip building a monument in the capital, which affects some GL strategies. But, other than that, yeah, it affects mixed lib/trad the most. That extra policy before you get to the free monuments, bonus growth and bonus happiness is pretty damaging.
Sadly, it seems their intent was to nerf Tradition, when all they really did was nerf the hybrid approach. The end result is worse IMHO. Anyone going pure Tradition is finishing that tree fast enough that the nerf just costs you a small amount of growth and the cost of building a monument. The slowed growth paces the impact of the delayed happiness, but there's a small amount of gold lost too. Maybe 60 gold total. (4g/turn for 15 turns)
So I suppose it does *slightly* nerf Tradition, but not in any meaningful way. Maybe we're talking 2-3 turns difference in HOF outcomes, but eh. I'm ok with that.
The change to Piety on the other hand significantly affects Sacred Sites, allowing you to start generating tourism roughly 10 turns earlier. And it slightly boosts the value of Jesuit Education as a wide science strategy. However, you're just as likely to lose out on that race on higher levels as you were before, so it's still not reliable. Whereas, by comparison, no one can "steal" the value of liberty or tradition when focusing on science.
I'm digressing, but IMHO this is not a huge balance-breaking patch. Frankly, had they fixed some of the bugs they SHOULD have fixed, like repairing in enemy territory, that would have more significantly affected finish times, because a lot of Deity HOF finishes have relied on that free GPT and healing.
Funny you should mention the hybrid approach. I found myself with an hour to kill today, and no gauntlet to play, as the GMinor Science is too long to finish on time, and I looked at the GOTM. The Casimir science GOTM is still active, and I started it to try the hybrid liberty - tradition that Casimir is ideally suited for. Boy is that nerfed. I was like 40 turns into the game and it suddenly occurred to me that now the piety - tradition hybrid for science at that level (emperor) would be a much more powerful solution than ever before. So here's my suggestion: Casimir - standard size and speed - Science Victory - on a good map like plains - Emperor+.
For HOF, I agree...No Biggie! But for Gauntlets, isn't it as simple as typing "22.214.171.1246" in the Version: rules,...Seem like a "No Brainer to me!
I like to play "Raging Barbarians", so that messes with me more than others, since I am grabbing the opener for "Honor". Probably won't experiment with that option any more in my games.
Actually the thing that made me most angry about the 126.96.36.1996 update, was "Beyond Earth". So all the time, money, and resources it took to create, market, and distribute BE....You couldn't fix "ALL" of the BNW problems??!!...Seriously!
It was like they said,..."Well we have all you turn based Firiaxis players money already, and fixing BNW isn't going to be profitable, let's create a new one, and well have 2 games with bugs, but at least well have ALL their money". Ridiculous!!
Sorry, Cromagnus....I am sure I encountered this bug, can you explain it in a little more detail, I don't quite understand.
The ones I hate that are still not fixed:
(Don't know what it it called, but I call it "Catch 22")
You acquire a city in a peace deal, and want to give it to some other civilization, but the game paints you into a corner with a Catch 22 situation. I "gifted" the city, so I am not allowed to select production, BUT you can't get to the "Next Turn" command without assigning production in that gifted city.
I had huge problem with last months Gauntlet...
One element that could create a great start would be to get a Pantheon very quickly, giving you a early advantage. However! If I discovered 2 Faith CSs immediately before founding my Capital, I can kiss that game goodbye. If I select my Pantheon before founding my Settler...The game locks immediately, so much for my early advantage!
Why do we still have these "simple" problems...??
I reported both of these bugs, and was told they have existed for a long time...Why?
Cant' tell me they didn't have the time, or resources!!
Very Frustrating!! I quit last month Major because I got sick of my game repeatedly locking up after I was so excited for the possibilities of an early advantage.
I think he is referring to the ability of workers to repair enemy improvements, which in turn allows one of you units on top of it to constantly plunder and repair the tile, obtaining both gold and healing. Not sure I would call it a bug, more a difference of opinion, as it seems easy to fix with a low probability of knock ons. I don't mind it that much, but it admittedly changes the game especially on higher difficulties.
The one that really bugs me is the one you described, I consider it a crash.
Good point, any tradition hybrid is now less viable due to the delayed "good policies"...
The problem I have with enemy territory repair is that it makes Liberty better than honor for conquest, and Pyramids better than Statue of Zeus. Combined with the fast building of roads towards opponents and happiness from connected cities, Honor cannot compare to Liberty. But at this point the HOF entries on deity are all reliant on this strategy, so changing it would mess up the tables.
Did not even think about this. You are absolutely right, it is crazy to have what should be the warmonger policy tree of choice almost never being used for domination. But I also see now why the team chose not to change it, at this point it would completely change the game and destroy a lot of the history of BNW.
The future gauntlet games will be different starting in 2015
To be competitive in a Gauntlet competition, you should be founding your first city on turn 0 or perhaps turn 1 (if there is a very nice spot which requires you to move onto a hill for example). Gauntlet are won by a difference of 1-2 turns, so if you are wandering about looking for a better starting location, you are not going to be competitive. My recommendation is to restart the game if you are not dealt a good starting location. I assure you that the first place finishers in Gauntlets almost always reroll their starting location. In Civ 4, they even had a map generator where you could choose your starting location more dynamically.
Oh..Don't worry I Reroll! I guarantee you I have logged more PreMedeival Hours rerolling than PostClassical finishers.
I feel some starts are worth a few extra turns...
*Double Masonry (One with a Hill)
*Natural Wonder (In the Gauntlet I mentioned,...My best effort was a Boudicca 2 forest settle next to Kalaish...I think I had religion somewhere around T25...That is a pretty good start right!?)
*5 resource Capital (Buying 2 CS tiles before they get their 1st border growth)
*Pantheon within the first 5 turns (2 Religious CS)
*Honor/Raging Barbs (2 tiles from Barb Camp, within City's Ranged Attack)(Double sight scout before turn 15)
*Forward Settling, if I want a early take down (Ex. Vadalaz Strategy-Requires a Turn 30-35 first city take down)
I'm good at Strategy...I'm subpar at Warmongering, Bulbing, and efficient unit movement.
You would be surprised how many gauntlet wins have start turn 2.
I'm certain that at least half of my best finishes were turn 2 or 3 city foundings. I'd check my submissions to verify that but...
If your taking more than 2 turns to settle,...then your playing the odds something extraordinary is going to happen.
You could give me 100 rerolls, and give Cro just 1 start, and he would most likely better my time on a Gauntlet. Obviously, he is a elite player, and to compete I need to take some chances to level the playing field.
Ex. Current Gauntlet (Deity),..Turn 3, I blocked Brazil's second city by DOW, and using my forward settled capital ranged attack to steal his settler. Now angry, he resorts to suicide when he bombards all of his remaining military off my capital, and then my scout (first build) snagged his other worker, and my warrior pillaged every one of his tiles.
Now I have 2 workers, gold, and control of the land to settle where ever I damn well please...(Before Turn 10) And,...Of Course, Brazil builds workers to deal with his pillaged resources,..Which I promptly steal one after the other, and eventually had 5 workers before turn 25 (all free).
Is this rare,..Of course. But, you can't tell me it wasn't a good start, and would have preferred to have the opening turns back that were lost by forward settling.
My skill level (especially warmongering) is steadily increasing, but I will do whatever I can to even the playing field until I can get that Matrix program uploaded into my brain with all of Cromagnus's Civilization skills.
It would be nice to have some gauntlets on smaller maps. It seems that the default for gauntlets is standard. Other settings (leader, map type, victory condition, etc.) all seem to rotate, but the map size seems to be standard most of the time. As people playing for VVV games are also playing gauntlets, it would be nice if over the course of a few months, gauntlet submissions could count for more than just the standard map size. It would also be nice to have some small or tiny (probably not duel) sized gauntlets to get a lot of submission attempts in during an update.
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