Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Ozbenno, Nov 2, 2011.
No problem Mesix, I will raise the frequent of the smaller ones.
Polynesia, Deity, Culture, Small Continents, Quick, Large
I think this Gauntlet would open up an interesting mix of strategies. Sacred Sites is almost certainly out at Deity difficulty, and the combination of Quick+Large means that full-on conquest would be difficult (but likely not impossible). So it would allow for exploration of strategies that are usually too slow to compete in HoF culture games.
I also think that these settings might attract some more participation from the Strategy & Tips Deity players who don't do HoF much.
I joined CivFanatics thinking I was pretty good at this game,....
When I saw Gauntlets as a way of competition,..."I thought,....Oh yeah, just when I was looking for a new challenge..."This is going to be fun!"
AND THEN, I got my butt handed to me on a platter....
These guys are GOOD,....REALLY GOOD!
Yes, I am glutton for punishment, BUT most of all stuck around because I enjoyed how friendly the community is on the Gauntlets, and learned more here than any place else on this site, or any other site dedicated to this game.
I am not a Elite player, but I have definitely bettered my game over the last year, and feel I have a worthy place conversing, and sharing with the other contributors on Gauntlet Threads.
But, I have to be honest.....Look at the last few Gauntlets,....
Bleidraner, Chuckh89, Cromagnus, Manpanzee, Mesix, Morcar_olmig, Vadalaz, Zenmaster
Your not getting a lot of posts besides those guys (And,...I love them all!)
So, how do you get more people participating in Gauntlets....?? Ladders
Overall Gauntlet winner stays the same...
VVV stays the same....
But, Ladders need to be added not only to increase participation, BUT to lower the intimidation for submission on Gauntlets.
What is a Ladder?
It is a system where people compete against participants of their own skill level, then once they have consistently proven to be among the elite at that level they advance to a higher level.
Maybe, there aren't enough people interested to warrant a change, but I guarantee you there are a lot of Civfanatics members that would be excited at the possibility of winning the Second Tier Gold medal against members of equal skill level, instead of getting beat by 70 turns.
Maybe the change increases participation, and they see how awesome it is to compete regularly at Gauntlets.
Maybe they realize the people competing aren't only Elite players, and feel confident enough to share their ideas with other members of their skill level.
Maybe they learn a lot from the Elite members, and we eventually have a lot of participants at the Elite level.
I am just speaking from experience,....I have been a regular contributor on Gauntlets for well over a year, BUT only submitted my first game 2 months ago....
If there were Ladders, I would have submitted my best game the first month I decided to compete....I think a lot of others would also,...
"Tier list" type threads are always really popular. One thing I was thinking about with that last gauntlet suggestion was using the HoF gauntlets as a proving ground for the kind of discussions that always come up on tier list threads.
A good way to do that is to put Civs in situations that uniquely play to their unique characteristics -- e.g., the Polynesia gauntlet I proposed would likely encourage Moai-heavy strategies, and we might end up with something interesting to point to when discussing Civs. Like, could Polynesia get a pre-Internet peaceful culture victory on Deity? I think there's a decent chance they could, and then we would have some real empirical information about how "powerful" the Moai is in a situation that plays to its strengths. Or, going in a different direction, what about an Immortal Pangaea Domination game with Gandhi? Let's see what that UA REALLY does in that situation.
People would definitely be interested in seeing the results of these sort of things. People interested ==> more clicks. More clicks ==> more participants.
I've read somewhere about unofficial HOF challenges - I think one of them was a Persia Deity domination game where ranged units were banned. Maybe such a series could be revived? Basically the DCL/ICL under HoF rules and perhaps some special rules from time to time. As Manpanzee says, Deity challenges might attract more players. Though in DCL you don't need to roll your own map.
I'd be willing to play the Polynesia game, that could have some interesting results. I think it can definitely be done without Internet, especially on Quick speed. My first thought was a Futurism + Hotels rush. Another challenge that I think would be fun to play is an Assyria diplo game, but now on Deity to make some real use of the UA. I also want to make Portugal's Nau spam work some time.
Speaking of tiered lists, I really like the "choose any leader" HOF gauntlets. It might be even more fun to limit the list of allowed civs that you can play, perhaps say to civs that are part of a hotly debated thread about who's better at Science or Continents, or what-have-you.
Of course, the problem with that is picking a difficulty level. Not everyone wants to play on Deity, and on Prince, strategy and choice of civ hardly affects success rates. But, it does affect turn of victory... so that could be fun regardless. As much as I hate Shuffle, I enjoyed the Shuffle Science gauntlet because everyone came in with a theory about which civ was best. I was actually quite surprised when Babylon didn't even make the top ten. Same with the any civ Time game, it was very fun to debate which civ would do the best.
So, I vote for Any civ gauntlets. Especially because this helps people fill in their VVV.
Funny thing about the hotly debated Deity tier lists is how few debaters submit Deity entries in the HOF, and how few people participate in Deity gauntlets... just sayin... lots of theories out there, maybe not so much based on experience?
Any civs gauntlets sound fun to play, that's true. I'd gladly participate in those, and you have a great point about it being helpful with VVV. But can you really use them for tier lists? The problem is that land matters more than the civ you choose, particularly for civs that are "in the same tier".
Well, it may not resolve any debates, true, but the few Any civ gauntlets I've played have sparked some interesting discussion, and surprising results. Until the Lakes time game I thought Gandhi was superior due to the reduced unhappiness/population, but that game showed that virtually every civ is ultimately growth-bound, making Aztecs superior. In the science shuffle game it was less clear... Were the best times posted by the best civs? Or was it more of a coincidence, and really more to do with the players themselves. So yeah, maybe it doesn't end the debate, but it can still be enlightening. And fun
Yeah, I agree completely about the fun factor and the discussions that arise when such a gauntlet is played. Makes me a bit sad that the only Any civ gauntlet I've played so far was the islands domination one, where the best civ choice actually became obvious, and pretty quickly too.
Anyway, if I understand correctly, the tier lists are about how easy it is for a given civ to achieve victory on a random map, with random neighbours and no extra settings like disabled start bias etc. HoF-style games would show something very different - how good a given civ is at achieving a fast victory on very good land, very often with opponents of your choice. For me personally, the latter is more valuable because I like competition vs humans, not AIs - it's what keeps Civ fun for me. Besides, the difficulty of the game is more affected by the map and opponents than the player's civ choice anyway, so "ease of victory" IMO isn't the best quality to base a ranking on. A game where you're surrounded by 7 Shakas is going to be annoying no matter what civ you play.
+1 choice of civ gauntlets. Make them majors unless very fast games though. The idea of a blacklist sometimes along with that (I am looking at you, Isabella) is also good.
+1 Manpanzee's ideas. He should suggest more specific gauntlets.
+1 Chuck's thought in general, but easier to implement than a ladder would be an entry level gauntlet once every month or every other month open only to those who have never achieved a gold medal in a major/minor or previous entry level gauntlet. Major/Minor/Entry.
This sounds really good to me. How would everyone feel about a monthly unofficial "any civ" game alongside the gauntlets, occasionally with specified opponent lists? Perhaps Deity only as well, so that there's at least one Deity HoF challenge every month.
I would like it for the Majors especially (Since you have longer to try different strategies with leaders),....
There is so many different ways to attack your Victory Condition when using "Choose any leader",....It keeps things fresh, and makes for really interesting discussions.
Another thing that would be cool,.....
When posting the new Gauntlet, ALSO post three possibilities for the upcoming Gauntlet,...
Have players vote on their favorite, and then have the most popular headline the next Gauntlet.
I love the idea. And what is more important, I think other people will too.
I don't care much about "any civ', but very like idea of Deity HoF challenge every month.
The reason why I don't play many gauntlets is because they are almost always either low difficulty or huge map or highest score or meh...
I would like to make more immortal or deity games but we barely get any submissions then.
I'll bring in more "any" civ. Sadly, it is not possible to create a gauntlet with a possibility of some civs. We can only eliminate with opponents.
I really don't see a lot of posts on Gauntlets Threads other than Deity Level players,....I think I might be the only one hanging out with the Elite guys!!?
Why don't we just give them their own Major every month,....Is it really that much more work...??
I appreciate everything the HoF staff does (Not looking to add more work for them), but Deity is a different animal than the other levels IMHO,....So,...
2 Minors like always, and
2 Majors, with one being called "Deity Challenge"
To me, there is a difference between submissions, and participation on Gauntlets.....
I think the goal of CivFanatics is participation,...
Some guys only check the requirements, then submit results....While others engage in friendly debate, exchange strategies, and communicate with their fellow competitors.
I do believe that having more Immortal/Deity culture games would be good. The thing about the "culture" victory is that lower levels are generally either Sacred Sites or a domination variant. Deity (and to a lesser extent Immortal) culture is distinctly different, and they're the only difficulty levels where the Culture victory actually is what it's theoretically "supposed" to be.
Science is alway Science, no matter the difficulty level. Domination is always domination. Diplomacy is always either science of a science/domination hybrid. Culture is the victory condition that has the most variation in what it actually *IS*, and the only way to access that variation is by having Immortal/Deity games.
Anyway, I looked at the previous Gauntlet list, and I don't think there's been a Deity Culture gauntlet since BNW came out. So it seems like it's about time, anyway.
I could not agree more. Everything has been either SS or Culture bomb or Liberty liberation. We are overdue for a Cultural Deity game.
My comment with submission was mend the same as participation.
It's rare that an immortal or deity game received a gold medal.
A deity culture game is coming
I personally think people ARE playing the Deity and Immortal games, BUT they are not submitting!!
Maybe there needs to be some kind incentive for submitting games,...
I think a lot of people make attempts at Deity and Immortal, and can get on the board with a win, but once you hit a certain turn, and you know that your way off the pace,...Goodbye,..reroll. (Instead of playing it out, and grabbing a victory)
I know I mentioned a voting system earlier, and Ladders,.....Maybe someone else can think of a incentive for submitting at the higher levels.
Ladders would change submissions dramatically on Deity/Immortal, BUT the only other thing I could think of is allowing people to vote on a poll for the next Gauntlet, and people that submitted the prior week get more votes. Otherwise your getting a lot of rerolls with NO submissions.
OR, maybe you get some (minor) points on the Overall Gauntlets Board just for submitting a game. ???
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