GEM: Land Armies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
The 1.66 download has a proposed later unit balance list also.
Main highlights for those interested (changes from GK values, not VEM balance).
Boost
Tanks
Helos
MG/Gatling Defence
Lancer attack (much higher).
Slight boosts to Armor, Artillery/Cannon regular attacks, very slight to Cavalry and Arty vs city.
Nerfs
Rocket Artillery (both v city and regular, presumably from no alum requirement)
Infantry
GW Infantry
MG/Gatling Attack
AA Gun
Slight nerfs to Mech Infantry, SAMs, ATGs, Rifles, Marines, Airborne, Landship, very slight Cannon vs city.
@Thal will there be any vanguard unit between Skirmishers and Paratroops (or are Paras still vanguards)? Light Infantry is gone from the table. I gathered this was a possibility from the use of Gatling/MGs instead. This could at least suppose that a medic promotion should be available for other industrial units?
Main highlights for those interested (changes from GK values, not VEM balance).
Boost
Tanks
Helos
MG/Gatling Defence
Lancer attack (much higher).
Slight boosts to Armor, Artillery/Cannon regular attacks, very slight to Cavalry and Arty vs city.
Nerfs
Rocket Artillery (both v city and regular, presumably from no alum requirement)
Infantry
GW Infantry
MG/Gatling Attack
AA Gun
Slight nerfs to Mech Infantry, SAMs, ATGs, Rifles, Marines, Airborne, Landship, very slight Cannon vs city.
@Thal will there be any vanguard unit between Skirmishers and Paratroops (or are Paras still vanguards)? Light Infantry is gone from the table. I gathered this was a possibility from the use of Gatling/MGs instead. This could at least suppose that a medic promotion should be available for other industrial units?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I feel high-strength 3
knights are more realistic and balanceable, but I'm going to change knights/cavalry to lower strength and 4 moves, because people seem to like that more. It makes combat easier because the AI does not handle fast units well, but we can compensate for that by raising AI military bonuses.
@mystikx21
The lategame unit list you mentioned was an early draft, which I've spent another four hours revising today, so it's not final yet.
I'm thinking of having skirmishers (renaissance) upgrade to gatling guns (industrial), while skirmishers are still buildable as lightly armed medics or scouts. Vanguards become less important when the defense role is taken over by gatling guns. I'm also thinking of moving Airborne up 1 tech column to Electronics so they are available as mobile MASH units sooner.
knights are more realistic and balanceable, but I'm going to change knights/cavalry to lower strength and 4 moves, because people seem to like that more. It makes combat easier because the AI does not handle fast units well, but we can compensate for that by raising AI military bonuses. @mystikx21
The lategame unit list you mentioned was an early draft, which I've spent another four hours revising today, so it's not final yet.
I'm thinking of having skirmishers (renaissance) upgrade to gatling guns (industrial), while skirmishers are still buildable as lightly armed medics or scouts. Vanguards become less important when the defense role is taken over by gatling guns. I'm also thinking of moving Airborne up 1 tech column to Electronics so they are available as mobile MASH units sooner.
Ahriman
Tyrant
My biggest worry with all the vanguard units is making economy techs too powerful as compared to military techs; economy techs giving both economic boosts *and* military units (even if inferior ones, they're still good en masse) while military techs only give military boosts means that it is very easy to just get economy techs. It is possible to get to good industrial era techs while ignoring a very large number of medieval and renaissance-era military techs. In my current game, I wiped my only neighbor out off my continent (Aztecs only had 1 city) and so then focused just on expanding and economy techs; I'm up to industrial era and don't even have Steel.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
@mystikx21
The first draft was just comparing vem and G&K unit strengths to find a compromise. Now I'm looking at the tech tree, considering unit accessibility, and adjusting unit strengths a second time. Overall you can expect it to match the table at the bottom of the original post.
@Ahriman
I would be okay with moving a few important economic bonuses from economic to military techs anywhere we feel it's necessary. If we consider Levies:
The military tech gains a bonus, while the economic tech has fewer bonuses. Metal Casting also has an economic bonus (production buildings). I think this buffs the military tech overall, compared to the economic tech. The early techs are probably okay, but I agree the later techs could likely use some work. I'll look at the techs and see what we can move.
The first draft was just comparing vem and G&K unit strengths to find a compromise. Now I'm looking at the tech tree, considering unit accessibility, and adjusting unit strengths a second time. Overall you can expect it to match the table at the bottom of the original post.
@Ahriman
I would be okay with moving a few important economic bonuses from economic to military techs anywhere we feel it's necessary. If we consider Levies:
Civil Service
Levies
Pikes
Chichen Itza (done in advance)
Metal Casting
Pikes
Levies Pikes Chichen Itza (done in advance)Metal Casting
PikesThe military tech gains a bonus, while the economic tech has fewer bonuses. Metal Casting also has an economic bonus (production buildings). I think this buffs the military tech overall, compared to the economic tech. The early techs are probably okay, but I agree the later techs could likely use some work. I'll look at the techs and see what we can move.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm not worried about Civil Service; as you've noted here and before that already offered a military/economy hybrid. But in VEM there were also boosts to Economics with the skirmisher and other top-half techs that got vanguards.
As you say, I'm fine to see how it looks once we have things in place.
As you say, I'm fine to see how it looks once we have things in place.
gunnergoz
Cat Herder
Ahriman
Tyrant
Yes; vanguards will be the only unit types that can get the medic promotions.MASH as in Mobile Army Surgical Hospital?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I'll keep that in mind when adding the later vanguards. I'll see if I can find some economic bonuses that could realistically go on military techs.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Maybe, but the problem with that is it is incoherent; workshops favor peaceful/builder; they only boost building construction. So they don't fit well in military techs.
I'll take a look at the tech tree later and see what I think.
I'll take a look at the tech tree later and see what I think.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Here's some more ideas for things to move from economic to military techs:
Oil & Aluminum reveals: Scientific Theory -> Chemistry (in line with later units that use them)
Oil Well: Dynamite
Forbidden Palace: Banking -> Gunpowder (conquerors tend to need more happiness)
Angkor Wat: Education -> Chivalry (education is already highly desirable)
In G&K Firaxis also moved Fertilizer from the economic half of the tree to the military half. We could swap some more techs, or change tech links, if you see anything that might work.
Oil & Aluminum reveals: Scientific Theory -> Chemistry (in line with later units that use them)
Oil Well: Dynamite
Forbidden Palace: Banking -> Gunpowder (conquerors tend to need more happiness)
Angkor Wat: Education -> Chivalry (education is already highly desirable)
In G&K Firaxis also moved Fertilizer from the economic half of the tree to the military half. We could swap some more techs, or change tech links, if you see anything that might work.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I think these are all very interesting options.
Ankor Wat I'm indifferent about, but the others sound like they'd probably work well.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Can you remind me what techs the Irregular and Airborne come at?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I'm not sure yet. I'm figuring out a good unit arrangement, and don't want to rush it. That's why I'm just looking at stuff that might realistically move from strong economic techs to weak military techs.
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[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
one vote for 3 moves high strength cavalry here 
mitsho
Deity
So is the vanguard unit line going to merge into the Gatling/Gun Machine Gun unit line who are then becoming paratroopers? Or did I get that wrong? (probably)
Slower, but stronger, Knight might be more realistic, but I gotta admit, move 4-cavalry units are fun But for Cavalry themselves, haven't we got fast lancers to play that part?
Slower, but stronger, Knight might be more realistic, but I gotta admit, move 4-cavalry units are fun
But for Cavalry themselves, haven't we got fast lancers to play that part?
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I'm not sure about industrial-era vanguards yet. There are several ways to phase them out to make way for the Gatling/MG line. I'm still thinking about options, and looking at the tech tree. I'll probably come to a decision by tomorrow.
Ahriman
Tyrant
A few thoughts:
Industrialization requiring Metallurgy would be logical and good for gameplay.
Oil reveal could go to chemsitry; aluminium reveal to metallurgy.
If Irregulars are industrial era and related to riflemen, they don't really work at Economics, which is Renaissance. But they don't really make sense on Archaeology or Scientific Theory either. There isn't really a logical place for the skirmisher. For gameplay it could go at Banking if Forbidden Palace moves to gunpowder.... but there's no good logical justification there. But acoustics doesn't make sense either.
Airborne at Radar is probably fine.
The Atomic and Information era tech trees aren't too bad for gameplay... but wow, many of those tech effects and pre-requisites make so little sense. Mobile tactics requires nuclear fission? Jet fighters require the Laser, not rocketry? Missile cruisers require Robotics?
Late game naval units are really weird; there are 4 tech tiers before frigates or privateers can be upgraded. You'll still be running around with age of sail ships while there are submarines and early aircraft.
Steam power *requires* industrialization (which include coal-activated factories), rather than enabling it. Railroads are the same tier as aircraft - in fact railroads don't even come in the industrial era!!
Industrialization requiring Metallurgy would be logical and good for gameplay.
Oil reveal could go to chemsitry; aluminium reveal to metallurgy.
If Irregulars are industrial era and related to riflemen, they don't really work at Economics, which is Renaissance. But they don't really make sense on Archaeology or Scientific Theory either. There isn't really a logical place for the skirmisher. For gameplay it could go at Banking if Forbidden Palace moves to gunpowder.... but there's no good logical justification there. But acoustics doesn't make sense either.
Airborne at Radar is probably fine.
The Atomic and Information era tech trees aren't too bad for gameplay... but wow, many of those tech effects and pre-requisites make so little sense. Mobile tactics requires nuclear fission? Jet fighters require the Laser, not rocketry? Missile cruisers require Robotics?
Late game naval units are really weird; there are 4 tech tiers before frigates or privateers can be upgraded. You'll still be running around with age of sail ships while there are submarines and early aircraft.
Steam power *requires* industrialization (which include coal-activated factories), rather than enabling it. Railroads are the same tier as aircraft - in fact railroads don't even come in the industrial era!!
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