GEM: Leaders

[Thalassicus]

I believe it's better to conquer religious citystates. Conquest immediately gives 50 turns of alliance benefits. This means conquering helps early while alliance helps late, and faith is better early than late.

 

[sukritact]

My full opinion on the Netherlands:

The civ in itself is really fun to play IMO. The UA is an active ability (you have to trade), the polder encourages unorthodox city positions (more marshes), and the Sea Beggar is a fun unit to play with. All in all, it is mainly composed of active components.

Unfortunately while the Civ has IMHO, an obvious direction (economic power), there is a noticeable lack of synergy and a more limited play style if you want to get use it to the best of its abilities.

The UA itself limits playstyle to peaceful play with major civs; too many declarations of war and everyone hate you, and discourages aggressiveness towards mercantile city-states (even with Sweden you can declare war on other civs and still use part of the UA). It is of limited usefulness, and limits the usage of Sea Beggars (which is best as an offensive unit).

With both the UI and UU being good IMO, I honestly think that the part that should be changed is the UA, which is IMO the weak link. We have to maintain that active component, yet try to make it more open.

 

[mitsho]

I like the idea of substituting Stability for Happiness. Though wouldn't that change the base game too much? Maybe have Stability be the synonym for Global Happiness and Happiness for Local Happiness. Though that may be too confusing. [On a side note, I would also like for GEM to be compatible with the Revolutions/Culture thing mod]

As for how conquerors work best, wouldn't that be a topic for another thread? What about a temporary happiness boost for AI conquerors after taking a city?

On topic of the leaders, I think I got a long post here. First,

Spain-Hun/Mongols-Germans
1. I dislike the German UA for Germany (ahistorical), but the effect itself is very popular.
2. We've struggled with making the Spanish UA work (not be too situational).
3. The Huns are well designed and the Mongols are the pet civ of Thal, but I think we can adapt them.

A. Germany gets a new UA (25% less xp needed for promotions, +1 science on military training buildings): changes Germany from Zerg to highly quality units. Seems more historical and also fun. The Landsknecht may be subject to change though (+25% vs melee).
B. The Mongols or Huns get the Pick-up-Barbarians ability, simulating them driving the other barbarians in front of them and pushing them into the Roman/Byzantine/Persian/Indian/Chinese Empires. The Mongols would lose both the vanguard-movement and the more gifts from conquered cs, the huns would lose the better raze.
C. The Spanish would get the more-gifts-from-conquered-cs and no gold for discover of Natural Wonders. This changes the Spanish to a civ that zaps around the globe picking up city states (who often have Natural Wonders as well) building up the first empire in which the sun never sets. (That's why I like the movement for the English UA as well).
D. If we do this, the Mongols would take the raze cities faster from the Huns (+ faster vanguards), whereas the Huns would get the pick-up-barbarians.

I know it's radical and it changes the pet civ Mongols, but I really dislike the Germans now And I guess my model would enhance Theme, History, Activeness, Generality (i.e. the German UA is also good for defensive games) and Ease of Implementation.

Byzantines and Carthage

I feel like those two are too similar at the moment: Early Naval Expansion Empires with a horseman UU. However, with the naval upgrade, you switched their ships practically. So I agree to change them. Carthage does feel correct with that specialization. I'd say:

UA: Free Trade Connections (Lighthouses) from the Start, movement on mountatins
UU: Quinquireme, Trireme replacement that has also additionally a melee attack (=unique) which allows for going along the coast and conquering a city state (I.e. the phoenicians and Carthage ).
UU: Forest Elephant stays, though it's not really that special. If we do a UB cothon, I'd have it replace that.

As for the Byzantines, I agree on scrapping the Cataphract, there are too many Horse UU's already. A change could be a Basilika as a UB, adding faith to some building? The other civ stable is the Hippodrome, replacing the circus. It was very important to Byzantium, so it does make a lot of sense. Alternatively, I'd suggest something displaying the bureaucracy/provincal governance, but I'm not sure how viable that is.

As for a Faith Generator added to the UA, it actually doesn't need it. We can still do it, though I would argue that Byzantium should be a "late" religion bloomer. It shouldn't fight with the Celts, Mayans and Ethiopians for the first religion/pantheon. I'd add a simple 5 to the palace when reaching the Classical Age or Philosophy Tech.

Ethiopia
I agree that the UA seems very passive, but I'm fine with one such UA. The stele practically guarantees you a first or second pantheon and Religion, it only doesn't work well with Tall Empire, but I'm struggling to find another effect or change the Tall gameplay of the civ.

I agree with changing the Mehal Safari. What about moving it on the tech tree so that the Ethiopians get a good defense unit without having to go too deep into the military side of the tech tree and can lack there in science while still gunning fast for a Cultural Victory?

Sweden
The Hakka does have a very unique feel to it. It also adds the Finnish practically The Carolean can be changed, though it allows for very powerful if you get a gifted Musketeer or Tercio from a city state (=fun!). I agree about adding something from the Social State, not the Viking Era. Though the public school replacement should not be too similar to the Austrian Coffeehouse, not?

Austria
Austria does feel balanced right now with the buy-cs-out power, not? I think the best nerf there would be to allow you to liberate those civs again. Is that possible?

Siam
Agree, the bonus should apply to Religious and Commercial City States as well.

Netherlands
I really liked the early speculation about the Polder granting you a free luxury, tulips, which then works well together with the UA as you can get as many of those luxuries as you want/need. Though I assume it's not codeable (or really not easy/fast to do so).

If you want to lose the Sea Beggar (and use the graphics for another normal ship), I'd suggest adding a Bourse UB replacing the Stock Exchange, and giving per luxury (too similar to Arabian UA) or on the luxury tiles itself (=works well with tulips as well). On the negative side, you will have the first civ with no UU.

Songhai
...seems unfocused as well for the moment, though I'm not sure if it needs work or not.


So I think I got through all of them, though as a last remark, I think Egypt should go for Science Victories as well sometimes, just as a reference to Stargate

 

[Fusilliban]

I'm not sure how I feel about the rest of that radical rotation, but I do kind of want to play as that incarnation of Spain.

 

[Thalassicus]

I like the idea of substituting Stability for Happiness. Though wouldn't that change the base game too much? Maybe have Stability be the synonym for Global Happiness and Happiness for Local Happiness.

If it feels more realistic, I would simply replace the word "happiness" with "stability" in all the text files. This would be just an aesthetic change that doesn't alter gameplay.

I agree some UAs should be moved around. Massing barbarians in the early game fits the Hun "Early Rushing" theme. Fast razing fits the Mongol theme of "Mobility" and their real-world strategy of surrender or die. I think Isabella is an ideal leader for a Religious Conquest theme. What if her conquistadors can spread religion like a missionary, instead of founding cities like a settler? Moving the citystate conquest ability to her also seems like a good idea.

The Japanese already have the Elite Units theme, so let's find a more unique one for Germany. What about blitzkrieg? Germany could get the mobility theme, and the Mongols could get a new theme of Surrender-or-Die. It would fit both civs better historically. The most important aspects of Mongol history were that military strategy, and how they connected Eurasia with a unified trade network for the first time in history. What if their cities connect to the capital without needing roads?

I agree the Carthaginians and Byzantines are too similar. The Carthaginian ability is "Phoenician Heritage." It connects port cities for trade. The Phoenicians traversed and settled around the Mediterranean very early in history. How about adding embarkation for civilian units? This would allow Carthage to settle across water early in the game. It would be safer than settling by land, since sea barbs are less of a threat. I feel this is sufficiently different from other embarkation abilities like the Vikings and Polynesians.

The naval bonuses so far are ship speed, experience, and capture. None of the leaders currently have a ship production bonus. We could give Carthage a unique Cothon replacing the harbor, available at Sailing, with a bonus to ship production. If we do that, I'd remove the Quinquireme so Carthage isn't too focused on their navy. The quinquireme is not that special anyway, just a more powerful trireme. The elephants are not very unique either, but they are one of the few traits of the civilization people really think of when you ask about Carthage.

The Siamese ability increases all citystate yields +30%. This includes religious citystates. I have not written code to handle the happiness version yet, since happiness works differently from other yields, but it's intended to be part of the bonus.

The problem with focusing too much on Polders is it makes the Dutch highly dependent on random map luck.

 

[Thalassicus]

Here are my thoughts about how to use the suggestions so far:

 

[mitsho]

If it feels more realistic, I would simply replace the word "happiness" with "stability" in all the text files. This would be just an aesthetic change that doesn't alter gameplay.

Yes, but it's something needing to explained to newcomers and it gets confusing with other mods that do add a Stability concept (i.e. Rhyes or that Revolutions Mod). I do agree that conceptually, it's better term than Happiness though.

I think Isabella is an ideal leader for a Religious Conquest theme. What if her conquistadors can spread religion like a missionary, instead of founding cities like a settler? Moving the citystate conquest ability to her also seems like a good idea.

That sounds like a cood idea. Though the problem is that it's a late unit (= how much effect does religion stilly have?) and it requires a religion playing style for it to be effective. What happens when Isabella doesn't play religiously? Though I do like the idea, it does fit historically (though not necessarily with the conquistador who were more bandits than religious fervents, not?). I do think if the other Uniques are good, one can accept the conquistador not being effective all the time.

The Japanese already have the Elite Units theme, so let's find a more unique one for Germany. What about blitzkrieg? Germany could get the mobility theme, and the Mongols could get a new theme of Surrender-or-Die. It would fit both civs better historically. The most important aspects of Mongol history were that military strategy, and how they connected Eurasia with a unified trade network for the first time in history. What if their cities connect to the capital without needing roads?

Duh, forgot about the Japanese

What would Blitzkrieg mean? +movements to foot units? Doesn't necessarily strike me as historical. Though it could work. Or Free March on infantry units? Though you said that's not necessarily fun.

My first idea was to combine Engineers and Scientists for the Germans, so that both specialists also provide the yield of the others, allowing you to go Barracks/Forge techtree side and still tech fast enough. The theme would be a Jack-of-all civ being good at science and military. The historical connection is the "Land der Dichter und Denker" (land of poets and thinkers), a German saying refering to the Scientists, Engineers, Prussian Discipline and Precision and Swabian Diligence/Industry (? like how bees are), both also having become phrases on their own.

Though the mobility theme is also ok for me

If you want a Gold ability for the Mongols, the Songhai gold-on-city capture sounds most historical (though that'd mean another new UA for them). Free trade routes sound ok as well, though it synchs more with the faster vanguards/foot units, no?

I agree the Carthaginians and Byzantines are too similar. The Carthaginian ability is "Phoenician Heritage." It connects port cities for trade. The Phoenicians traversed and settled around the Mediterranean very early in history. How about adding embarkation for civilian units? This would allow Carthage to settle across water early in the game. It would be safer than settling by land, since sea barbs are less of a threat. I feel this is sufficiently different from other embarkation abilities like the Vikings and Polynesians.

The naval bonuses so far are ship speed, experience, and capture. None of the leaders currently have a ship production bonus. We could give Carthage a unique Cothon replacing the harbor, available at Sailing, with a bonus to ship production. If we do that, I'd remove the Quinquireme so Carthage isn't too focused on their navy. The quinquireme is not that special anyway, just a more powerful trireme. The elephants are not very unique either, but they are one of the few traits of the civilization people really think of when you ask about Carthage.

Agree, though I'm not sure the added civilian embarking will see much use though as you will probably go for naval techs anyways with the other uniques, so it will come early and the first city will often be settled on the same coast anyways, no? Not sure, if the civ would need that boost anyways.

The problem with focusing too much on Polders is it makes the Dutch highly dependent on random map luck.

You got a point there, though I'm not sure how severe it is, after all lots of other civs also rely on their surroundings, the Arabs, Polynesians, Iroquois, even the Celts.

On the Celts btw., I'm not sure they are balanced well. Their UA may lead you to settle in less-than-ideal places, though that makes them play uniquely as well. I'd focus the Pictish Warrior more on Faith-Generation than fighting in non-friendly territory. That promotion is taken with them (right?), but doesn't feel really historical. After all, the celts did fight more at home against invaders than outside. Maybe change the UA or add something relating to Irish Missionaries, like cheaper missionaries?

EDIT: Duh, Crossposts. Some comments:

Orthodox Temple is obvious a placeholder name. Though Basilica I now learned only applies to Western Rome (and thus Catholicism), I suggest simply Church, or otherwise Bishopric?
You forgot the UA at Carthage. Does it give free Cothons or free Lighthouses? Sweden retains its UA as well, i'd guess?
Ethiopia retain it UA? I'd rather add the spice market thing to the UA, since again, I dislike taking away the only unique unit from a civ. (and especially late game units that are quite rare).

 

[Ahriman]

Some thoughts here:

I think Sweden should be focused on the mostly 17th century period of the Swedish Empire, particularly around the 30 years war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_empire

They really did have an impressive military here. One possibility would be arquebusiers that get a free shock promotion (Swedish infantry used more shock tactics than was common for the era), or some other bonus.

We should keep away from Vikings. I think there is too much of a tendency sometimes to treat all Scandanavian countries as if they were the same. And I think it is a mistake to focus on modern socialist cooperative Sweden. That's kinda boring.

I'd support dropping the Cataphract for Byzantines. Some flavorful possibilities would include: better medieval-era infrastructure/engineering somehow (adding a growth bonus to some medieval building?) representing retained Roman knowledge. Better defensive fortifications (Castle UB?) though that might be a bit dull. Espionage bonus - an extra spy makes little sense for England, Byzantines are the only people it really makes sense for.
Or we could give them something that actually worked with their UA: a Basilica temple UB.

Carthage I think we should drop the crossing mountains thing. One of the weakest parts of vanilla is the tendency they have to base things on Hollywood versions of history rather than real history. Witness the also English extra spy (because, James Bond??).
I like the free trade route buildings, I could see them with a UB harbor too.
Elephants are ok, but might need to be tweaked. They don't fit the theme very well.

With the Dutch: is it possible to make the Polder something that can be built on any grasslands or plains tile adjacent to the coast? And then rebalance yield appropriately (maybe a farm with +1 gold). That might be a way of making their stuff work better together; commercial orientation, naval orientation, coastal orientation.
I think the half-happiness from last luxury is boring, but could we give them a UA that gave them free gold per turn for each luxury resource?

I've always thought that happiness really meant stability. I don't see a reason to actually change it, its easy enough to understand, and I think changing things like this might just be confusing to people coming from vanilla, particularly when there is no actual change in the mechanic. And its easier for people to see a stadium providing happiness than stability. But there's always been a bread-and-circuses-to-control-the-mob idea behind it all.

Similarly, I've always thought that culture really represented institutional development, but it's easier to stick with "culture" to have theaters and opera houses produce it.

I would much rather have a Germany that represented HRE, Prussia/Bavaria/etc. and modern Germany than the germanic barbarian one we have now. Mitsho's suggestions sound like a good possibility. I certainly think Germany should be a quality not quantity faction. I don't think faster ranged units makes sense.

We could change a horde faction to huns; we already have mongols as a horse faction. Songhai could also be tweaked into a more aggressive power.

 

[mystikx21]

I'm not following how faster ranged units is more where the blitz was. Pretty sure that was faster mobile units, faster infantry (trucks and halftracks) and better operational combined arms. Their artillery was horse drawn for most of WW2 and it was largely the Americans who had mobile cannons in that like. Germany had a lot of mobile artillery compared to the other major powers, but not to the degree the US did.

I like the concept in theory, but I think a focus on Prussian era effects is probably better. They've already got a Panzer and the leader is Bismarck after all. Mobility works fine on the Mongols if it were to go anywhere. A free promo to foot soldiers might be more in line here than movement or ranged troop bonuses.

I agree changing the happiness name to stability is probably unnecessary. Cosmetic changes can make it easier to understand clear concepts for people who want to talk nuts and bolts, but not for people who just want to play the game. Happiness for all intents and purposes is stability anyway. When unhappiness is too high in Civ5, the empire becomes unstable. It's not necessary to more clearly label the property to understand it in those terms with a suitable abstraction already available.

Carthage crossing the mountains is certainly unique, but didn't actually work out that well in reality (Hannibal lost a huge portion of his forces).

 

[Thalassicus]

@mitsho
My idea for creating lightning warfare in Civ is moving an entire army at high speed by combining mobile units with unusually fast ranged units, as Germany did. Ranged units slow the army down, not mobile units. The modern ranged unit is aircraft, but earlier applications of blitzkrieg could use any sort of fast ranged unit, like mounted archers.

Speeding up the already-fast units (horses/tanks) does not help the whole army move faster, since slow ranged units still set the pace of conquest. Making the best unit better also discourages combined arms, the other major part of blitzkrieg, by increasing the effectiveness of unit spam. This is a problem with Mongolia, where it's easy spam horses and ignore archers/footsoldiers.

 

[sukritact]

The problem with focusing too much on Polders is it makes the Dutch highly dependent on random map luck.

Are marshes and floodplains that rare? I generally can found at least 2 cities with plentiful access (and I usually only found 3 cities).

With regards to"the Swedish "State School", I think the former idea of better yields for all specialists sound better (or have specialists make more GP points). And in terms of flavor I'd advocate them being called "Folkskola". (could someone check the grammar? I think folkskola is the indefinite singular, and folkskolor is the indefinite plural, but I'm not sure if I've mixed them up).

 

[mitsho]

I think the faster ranged units is more gameplay related than historical, and I think in that sense it could work, though the first reactions in here show that it might not be the most intuitive and thus best solution. Thal's comment while I'm writing this post confirms this Another option could be a Victory Column style building you can build in your city/get for free and that adds +1 happines per conquered city.

As for the Huns, what really doesn't make sense is that they get Animal Husbandry from the start, but then don't need horses to build their UU.

 

[Thalassicus]

Animal Husbandry was given to the Huns back when their uu still required horses, and all Hunnish cities started with 2 free horse resources. I think Firaxis left the tech bonus in to let the Huns unlock Horse Archers sooner.

Germany did not exist as a nation in 4000 bce, so any bonuses we give them are ahistorical. It's an abstraction of Civilization I'm okay with.

 

[Ahriman]

Though Basilica I now learned only applies to Western Rome (and thus Catholicism), I suggest simply Church, or otherwise Bishopric?

I'm not sure this is correct. In Istbanul they certainly refer to Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene and others as basilicas.
Basilica in eastern Rome specifically referred to a religious building, whereas Basilicas in western Rome could be a large/central public building, even with no religious significance.

For Celts:
I think the faith-from forests is interesting and faith from kills is ok. The strength boost in foreign territory is a bit weird, and maybe could just be extra strength. I forget: does the faith from kills stay with them as they promote?
But the opera house UB is just weird.

Archers/crossbows/gatling guns with extra movement would feel really really weird for Germany. I don't think that works. I think Blitzkrieg (really just superior armored doctrine) is already handled well by the Panzer.
Better engineer/scientists would be fine (and maybe better manfactories/academies?).

A Public School UB could work for Germany or Sweden.

 

[Ahriman]

I like instant-faith from temple for byzantines.

Mongol changes sound good.

I like a tall Economy bonus for Ethiopia.

3 move Landsknechts sounds weird. I don't think it is good design to give melee units move than 2 moves, it makes mounted units less interesting, and counters archers too well.

I find the Samurai to be a bit underpowered given that you'll only have a few, I think it needs a core strength boost.

I suggest the polder move to an improvement that works when next to coast tiles.
The difference for terrain requirements is that it is possible to have a forest start bias, or a coast start bias, or a desert start bias, but no marsh start bias. And marshes are pretty rare.

I like the sea beggar, stats can be tweaked but I think it is fine to have a galleon UU.

I really agree that you should be able to liberate CSes taken by Austria. I haven't played them in ages so I'm not sure what the gold cost for annexation is these days?

 

[mitsho]

I'm not sure this is correct. In Istbanul they certainly refer to Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene and others as basilicas.
Basilica in eastern Rome specifically referred to a religious building, whereas Basilicas in western Rome could be a large/central public building, even with no religious significance.

I know, I'm really confused right now as well. I did connect Basilicas to those Orthodox/Byzantine churche architecture style from personal use, but the list of basilicas on wikipedia only refers to Catholic Churches... But then there's this quote from the other wiki entry:

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, the basilica is a mere architectural description of churches built in the ancient style. It bears no significance with regard to precedence or importance of the particular building or clerics associated with it. Eastern basilicas may be single-naved, or have the nave flanked by one or two pairs of lower aisles; it may have a dome in the middle: in this case it is called a "domed basilica"

In any case, I agree, Basilika is fine for the Temple UB for Byzantium.

Can the polder be made to function just like the terrace farm, but for coastal tiles instead of Mountains?

I like the Ceilidh Hall for the Celts since it's one of the few late game Unique (Buildings).

 

[mystikx21]

The gold cost on annexing was upped a while ago. Liberation would be very useful for balance if it can be done.

I'd agree if we can modify the polder to be coastal that sounds appealing.

I'd prefer if Ethiopia keeps the UU, and just make it more interesting in some other way (free drill promo is a good start, cost or tech appearance could be another). I can see the appeal of an economic UB for them though with some kind of tall bonus (per pop gold usually?)

Public school for Sweden sounds fine to replace Caroleon. I don't think it's necessary to give each civ a distinct feel across all its unique effects from one era (esp if that civ had multiple eras of historical impact). The trick with using their 17th century heights is that it doesn't synergize very well at all with the UA as it implies a great deal more aggression. And they do have an interesting UA (at least to me).

 

[Ahriman]

Can the polder be made to function just like the terrace farm, but for coastal tiles instead of Mountains?

Well, not *just* like, +1 food per adjacent coast tile would be too strong - there are a lot more coast-adjacent tiles than mountain-adjacent tiles, and they're much more accessible.
But don't the moai work like this? So something should be possible.
I think I'd also have the polders give gold rather than food to fit the commercial nature of the Dutch civ.

I like the Ceilidh Hall for the Celts since it's one of the few late game Unique (Buildings).

If we want late game UBs, these would make more sense to have on civs that were actually around/important in the late game: Japan, Russia, America, Germany, France, Spain, England, etc.
A UB opera house would make rather more sense for France than for Celts.

the trick with using their 17th century heights is that it doesn't synergize very well at all with the UA as it implies a great deal more aggression.

Which is why I would want to drop the UA and go with something else. Nobel prize doesn't really make sense, because it comes from a time when Sweden has reverted to minor power status. It would be like having the Mongol UA be based on modern Mongolia, or the Ottoman UA on the 19th century, etc.
I also find the effect to be weak. Compare it to the effect of actually using my great merchant and buying influence, especially with either Patronage or Commerce policies (to boost influence gain or gold yield).

 

[mystikx21]

That effect (the CS gift) is very, very weak I agree. (Second the polder improving gold as well).

 

[Ahriman]

While we're on this list: I'd like to restate my dislike for the Foreign Legion UU for France. It doesn't make much flavor sense (it isn't really very central to France as a country, and France didn't really have particularly good or cheap 20th century infantry, and the Foreign Legion weren't the main army regulars), and it is a period by which France was in somewhat relative decline. I think it would be much better to have a Renaissance or Industrial bonus (maybe a Salon opera house UB, which picks up after Anciens Regime drops off - though really Anciens Regime is pretty weak these days given how many other culture sources there are, so I'm not sure it needs to expire at all - no other UAs expire - it could also be renamed Lingua Franca to make clear that it still applies even after the Revolution), or a medieval bonus (maybe a Gendarmes knight UU).
Or something to do with revolutionary France.

Given all the things in which French history is famous for, the foreign legion seems a really weird pick to focus on.
Again, I blame Hollywood history, for having them pick out The Three Musketeers and the French Foreign Legion as the "widely known as French" things, rather than "important French advantages".