GEM: Leaders

[mystikx21]

They had better planes for most of the war (US and UK had some equals but Fw190 and the 262 were pretty good fighters and the stuka was an excellent dive bomber). The problem was they wasted them on London and later had two fronts to defend and got strung out. There's a ton of Eastern front aces with a dozen or more of kills on both sides. They also had better planes in WW1. So I don't think it was a fluke but solid engineering design.

If I were going to have an air unit UA, Germany or the US would be about it. Russia has some really fast and maneuverable fighters but for most of the Cold War they were getting clobbered in combat in proxy wars. It's why they had so much in SAMs.

That said, I like the engineering/philosophy aspect more than an air unit one.

 

[Ahriman]

My preference for Germany is still to increase the GPP production of engineers and scientists. This makes them favor those specialists, but does it differently than just increasing yields, and has nice flavor with lots of historic German thinkers and inventors. More GPPs increases the "specialness" of specialists, rather than just making them direct substitutes for tile yields.

The free tech from NASA stations sounds interesting, worth a try.

 

[123joanna321]

@123john321
What version of Gem does your Palace show? There was a bug with the English ability a few versions ago, but it works in my current build. I'd recommend updating when I release Gem v1.11.

I foolishly updated my mod before I checked and now I can't start the game

I can tell you though it was GEM v1.8 beta and Unofficial Patch v2.0.51

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

The new version really plays very nice! Nearly now bugs and I had no lag in cityscreen anymore, even round end seems faster! Great, great work!

Reason for writing here is, that Korea really seems OP to me. Have not played them for a long time and they were not in my games as far as I can remember, but my last/actual game (Gem 1.11.1, Immortal, small, continent plus, low sea, 2 extra civs) made this obvious.
They entered Ren. in turn 121 (myself as second in 152), Ind. in 162 per scientific theory! (myself in turn 182, but beelined smokeless powder and had no other ren. techs), modern in turn 182! I am still 2nd in tech, Germany is at my level, all other civs are early/mid ren.
Okay, this only one game, but when I look at what they get, their succes seems no surprise.

UA: +2 science for every farm
UB: +16 scienece (instead of +8), +2 science to all specialist on a classical building
UU: trebuchet with str 39!! instead of 21 (is this really intended, should it be a cannon? Or is the civipedia not correct?)

I like the flavor of an enlightnend leader, but this is way too much. And early science is still on the Babylonians
Perhaps some thing like this:
UA: one/two free scientist slot(s) per city (codeable?)
UB: + 1 per farm on university (still very strong)
UU: Treb without malus on land units

Alternative could be a better replacement of heidelberg uni, but I do not know how often AI builds this.

 

[Ahriman]

I've never played Korea (don't have that DLC), but I agree that +science on farms seems incredibly powerful; even +1 would be strong, +2 seems insane.

 

[mystikx21]

Hwacha is probably still based off the GK level where they're 26-14, and then multiplied up as the base is to 39. That can be fixed easily enough to set them somewhere more appropriate as needed. They do have a -50% city penalty, but it would make more sense to set them at 21 and nix the unit penalty because of the value of promotions.

The farms is indeed overpowered. National College (I haven't played them either), only work with that city or with all?

 

[Ahriman]

If Korea is to have a "hermit Kingdom" feel, could it be made more interesting by balancing powerful effects with downsides? Perhaps penalties to the benefits from open borders/research agreements/city state yields?

 

[albie_123]

I really dislike the idea of any Civ having downsides. Negative bonuses aren't fun unless every leader has one.

 

[Naeven]

Is it codeable to give a certain promotion to a unit bought with gold?
I'm thinking of a Mercanary themed leader, units bought with gold gets Mercanary + other goodie promo (March?), but must pay higher /turn.

France maybe? Thinking of the Genoese crossbowmen & Swiss mercenaries.
Could affect buying Crossbowmen and Pikemens only.

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

I agree that mali are not a good idea. The civ-specific advantages encourage you to play a civ a certain way, but they do not force you to do it, if the specific circumstances are special.

If the abilities are so strong, they need downsides for other strategies, you are pushed to strong to play the civ as intended and not in another way.

I am not sure if the Jade hall gives +2 only to the specialists in the city it is build or to every city. Will look when I continue the game.
But the main problem is surely the farms.

 

[Naeven]

I am not sure if the Jade hall gives +2 only to the specialists in the city it is build or to every city. Will look when I continue the game.

All specialists in all cities, pretty much just had an Korea game

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

All specialists in all cities, pretty much just had an Korea game

Thanks, Naeven! Than this is too strong I fear.

Other topic:
Would it be possible to give a civ an UU that does not replace another. I thought of giving for example Carthage elephants (strong, but slow) and horseman and not elephants instead of horseman. Historically elephants made cavalery not obselete, but were more of an extra typ of military unit.

 

[mystikx21]

I'd agree that's really strong then too. Could be just +2 on scientists and +1 on farms.

 

[Naeven]

Speaking of Elephants, Indias War elephants are available at The wheel (same tech as chariots) but replaces horsemen. Chariots are still buildable and uppgradeable to war elephants (Horsemen).
Shouldn't War elephants just replace chariots and then uppgrade to Knights.

 

[Thalassicus]

Gem nerfs all Korean characteristics:

G&K: 150% unique caravel restricted to coast
GEM: removed

G&K: 4 specialists from the start of the game
GEM: 2 specialists with a national wonder

G&K: 200 to 6000 instantly from science buildings and wonders in the capital.
GEM: 2 on farms.

G&K: 180% unique trebuchet with -25% vs cities
GEM: 180% unique trebuchet with -50% vs cities

(adjusted for inflation)

I'd be okay with further nerfs if you feel it's necessary. Let's compare some numbers to estimate changes. In your Korea games, what percentage of total national science comes from farms?

 

[Ahriman]

G&K: 200 to 6000 instantly from science buildings and wonders in the capital.
GEM: 2 on farms.

It's not clear to me that this is a nerf, and it's not clear to me that vanilla is balanced either.

 

[Thalassicus]

The main thing is I believe the farms are more fun than the original UA, because it fundamentally changes the way we play. The other bonus rewarded us for doing something we'd do anyway.

From a balance perspective, the thing we need to look at is how much effect the bonus actually gives, in percentage terms of our total science income. Our human brains are very limited when it comes to analyzing vast quantities of numbers, like dozens of farms, halls, and libraries.

 

[Ahriman]

I've never played Korea, so I don't know how large the science boosts were.
But its worth noting that tile yield bonuses have a multiplicative effect with other % bonuses, like that from libraries and universities or the knowledge social policy.

It's quite possible that both effects are too strong.

I would also hope that early game science would be a theme of Babylon and maybe Maya, not Korea, who feel like their bonuses should mostly kick in ~Medieval. I think Bablyon don't seem to be very interesting these days.

 

[Thalassicus]

Babylon is a turtling civ, basically invulnerable with archers and walls. Nebu could start near 4 hostile militaristic AIs and shrug it off easily. The downside is he can only use scientists efficiently.

Sejong is an all-out science leader. He has more science, but no early defenses at all - not even a starting warrior, and none of Babylon's unique defenses. Sejong is like an RTS player who ignores everything and goes straight for tier 3 techs. It's a high risk, high reward style of gameplay, and only works if no one scouts and attacks him before he can race ahead to superior units.

 

[Ahriman]

Babylon is a turtling civ

That is a very weak ability. Any civ is basically invulnerable to an early rush with archers and walls. And defensive abilities don't help you to win the game.

To make Bablyon more interesting, maybe the walls could give some yield (+1 science or food would be in-theme) or a scientist specialist slot, and the UU could have an ability that stayed when promoted?

but no early defenses at all - not even a starting warrior

It's not hard to get a couple of units out to fend off rushes in the early game. You don't need uniques to do this. A small temporary weakness in the early game that only matters sometimes doesn't really counteract a very powerful UA.