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GEM: Leaders

Some other effect on the Cothon is fine.
Happiness on the Cothon might help for building a Wide early game coastal empire. I think that would be fun to play. Some civs can encourage coastal play through military might (eg England), Carthage could have generic military ships, but be encouraged to the coast by economic reasons.
 
Also, on the alliances issue: the other faction that makes sense for is Austria. Austria was very much a diplomatic power stitching together alliances, and I think there are widespread complaints about the annexation effect, particularly since we aren't able to liberate the CSes afterwards.
Would we have to re-work the Hussars? The problem with any alliance based UA is that it discourages militaristic play. The Hussars would have to become defensive units..
 
Right. So faster-everything I think is something we don't need.

Perhaps to incorporate some of what Thal wants: is there any way we could design something that would encourage use of combined arms?
I can't think of anything obvious, because I think the game already encourages combined arms, and because generic military boosts like Japan's barracks UB or the reduced military costs or more units from military city states are already across-the-board military benefits that encourage combined arms.

Is it possible to create a new type of Cover promotion/ Flanking Promotion that allows a slightly larger flanking bonus for adjacent units that are of a differnt type than the original?

You could call it "Support".
 
Interesting idea, but bonuses that rely heavily on complex unit placement are going to be failed by the AI.
 
Right. So faster-everything I think is something we don't need.

Perhaps to incorporate some of what Thal wants: is there any way we could design something that would encourage use of combined arms?
I can't think of anything obvious, because I think the game already encourages combined arms, and because generic military boosts like Japan's barracks UB or the reduced military costs or more units from military city states are already across-the-board military benefits that encourage combined arms.

I did say you convinced me that faster units UA is a bad UA in that it's a straight strength boost. That edited remark only drowned in this post frenzy this thread is experiencing right now ;)

What about a economic boost for combined arms? Like reduced maintenance if the unit is next to another unit? Or faster movement on roads (and maybe lets you use enemy roads as well)? Though that last one isn't necessarily for combined arms...

Interesting idea, it would need testing but I can see that working.
One thought: would this work better for the Dutch? I think there is widespread agreement that the Dutch UA is weak.

Also, on the alliances issue: the other faction that makes sense for is Austria. Austria was very much a diplomatic power stitching together alliances, and I think there are widespread complaints about the annexation effect, particularly since we aren't able to liberate the CSes afterwards.

Meh, the Austrian UA ticks off all of the other boxes we set for an UA. It encourages a distinct gameplay, can't be achieved in any other way and so on.

If we're going by gameplay*, I'd rather give that to the Dutch since their UA isn't well liked and is more or less a copy of the Arabian UB. The question there is if we can find a historical reasoning for giving that to the Dutch...

(the sea beggar seems popular, so maybe we should keep that one, especially if we already kill the quinquireme for Carthage)

Also, the difference between free happiness and a free luxury ressource is that you can sell the latter for money (no other civ will have it), which is powerful early on, but it has a upper bar of effectiveness, namely when you have no more trading partners to sell it to. On small maps with few civs, this can mean a difference, while the straight happiness boost just facilitates ICS.

*and yes, my chivalry proposition for Japan fails at the gameplay side. It'd need to be something else in compliance with the UA...
 
Like reduced maintenance if the unit is next to another unit?
As above, anything placement related isn't going to work for the AI.
One possibility of trying to do something economic would be to have a discount in unit maintenance costs that decreased for each extra copy you had of the same unit type. So the first archer you had costs 50% of normal, the second costs 75%, the third and on cost 100%. That would encourage the human player to mix units, and the AI can already be coded directly to try to field a mixed force.
The problem is, it feels hackish, and the effects aren't directly observable to the human (maintenance all goes into the same net gold income pot) and so might not feel like much was happening.

I'd rather give the Dutch a luxury-based UA than a diplomatic one. But I have no particular preference for an alliance-based UA for any faction.
I like the Sea Beggar, and my other proposal was for polders as superior farms when adjacent to coast.

Also, the difference between free happiness and a free luxury ressource is that you can sell the latter for money (no other civ will have it), which is powerful early on, but it has a upper bar of effectiveness, namely when you have no more trading partners to sell it to. On small maps with few civs, this can mean a difference, while the straight happiness boost just facilitates ICS.
Agreed, though I would say facilitates "wide", not quite ICS. But that's kinda the point; the Dutch I think don't need to particularly favor wide or tall (historically they have a small Tall home base and then scattered trading ports), they can do either, and the free luxury supports this.

While Carthage I think which had a big scattered empire of small coastal colonies, and so I think its fine if they use the happiness-from-harbor, which favors Wide.

and yes, my chivalry proposition for Japan fails at the gameplay side. It'd need to be something else in compliance with the UA...
Well, you could just stick it on metal working or something similar, and really help encourage a military strategy that has them working up towards Steel.
 
Meh, the Austrian UA ticks off all of the other boxes we set for an UA. It encourages a distinct gameplay, can't be achieved in any other way and so on.
.....

Also, the difference between free happiness and a free luxury ressource is that you can sell the latter for money (no other civ will have it), which is powerful early on, but it has a upper bar of effectiveness, namely when you have no more trading partners to sell it to. On small maps with few civs, this can mean a difference, while the straight happiness boost just facilitates ICS.

I'd agree the Austria UA is unique and interesting (and powerful), but it has the game-breaking effect of preventing liberating CS. If it didn't do that in some way, I'd be fine with it as it is now.

In accordance with the Dutch/Carthage. I'd rather Carthage have some kind of ICS effect and play wider/expansionist/conquer because of the trade routes their UA encourages now which gives a particular feel as well.

The Dutch could play somewhat taller and rely more on trade with others (there's no particular reason they should be tall or wide, but they'd work fine either way with this kind of setup). As a gameplay effect it makes sense. The current UA doesn't do this in a very interesting way. A UA that gives them a free luxury per city might.
 
Denmark should get Askia's amphibious/war canoe UA added to his current.
Maybe drop the movment on sea, but pillage one fits good.
The Viking way is raiding from water. That's actually what the word Viking means, "expedition overseas".
 
I think extra movement for embarked units is an important bonus in order to make sea-raiding practical. Otherwise embarked units are just too slow to be effective.
 
I think extra movement for embarked units is an important bonus in order to make sea-raiding practical. Otherwise embarked units are just too slow to be effective.

Or keep it :rolleyes: still think they need the other 2 promotions to make it practical as well. Specially since the naval buff.
 
Possibly. Embarked land units do seem to get annihilated pretty fast by the boosted naval units. I think this is probably a general issue that goes beyond Danes.
 
The Dutch Empire had colonies across the world for the most significant time in their history, and they did that mainly by delegating to their corporate companies, using slave labor in their colonies.

Boosting their navy and trade makes the most sense, but the current UA is kinda weak. After reading a bit about the infrastructure required for their overseas holdings, one could say that the Dutch could be given a serious production boost for low population cities - hence, new cities.

From wikipedia:

"Between 1800 to 1950 Dutch engineers created an infrastructure including 67,000 kilometers (42,000 mi) of roads, 7,500 kilometers (4,700 mi) of railways, many large bridges, modern irrigation systems covering 1.4 million hectares (5,400 sq mi) of rice fields, several international harbors, and 140 public drinking water systems"

That's impressive. One could give them half road/rail build times, a free aqueduct in each city, or any number of infrastructure-related bonuses.
 
On Blitzkrieg: I think it is way over-stated, and I tend to agree with the military historians who argue that it isn't really a coherent doctrine, it's just general exploitation of superior organization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg#Controversy
In recent years a large number of writers and historians have come to the conclusion it was not a new form of warfare invented by the German military, but an old method of pursuing decisive battles using new technology.
I agree completely, and added a quote from your link. It's an old strategy instead of something new to WW2. This is why I believe we should focus on the concept of superior organization instead of the specific time period or units.

I want to find a military in history which used better organization to combine fast mobile and ranged units (like Germany). I think this would be a fun ability. Mongol and Persian bonuses discourage this. Mongolia's Keshik and +1:c5moves: mounted reduces demand for ranged units, while Persia's +1:c5moves: for all discourages mobile units, since mobile gets less of a proportional bonus. What civilization would make sense for combining mobile with ranged?

I tried to explain this stuff earlier, but I guess my post got lost in the shuffle of the thread. :lol:
Thalassicus said:
My idea for creating lightning warfare in Civ is moving an entire army at high speed by combining mobile units with unusually fast ranged units, as Germany did. Ranged units slow the army down, not mobile units. The modern ranged unit is aircraft, but earlier applications of blitzkrieg could use any sort of fast ranged unit, like mounted archers.


@Ahriman
I gave the Ottomans a Liburna because it's fun to use with their ship-capture ability. The other Ottoman bonuses are valued low by most players, so I figure things balance out in the end.

The GP-based ability I'm thinking of is something like +X% GP rate per major civ alliance, and we get free great people from citystates (similar to the Immigration policy). The problem with Sweden's UA was how they did the citystate part backwards. :lol:

I feel the key problem with melee ships is they are good at capturing cities. It causes so many problems. I think it would have been better to get the AI to capture cities with embarked units more effectively, and simply buff ranged navies so they're important. Sadly, that is not a very practical solution from my end. It would have been better for Firaxis to design a smarter naval AI from the start.

The Iroquois bonuses are:

| Gem | Vanilla Faster |All forest and jungle everywhere|Forests in friendly territory
Starts with |Mohawk Warrior|Warrior
UU consumes |No strategic resource|Iron
UU bonus |Forest & Jungle|Forest
Longhouse |+10%:c5production: and +1:c5production: forest & jungle|+1:c5production: forest

I like Washington because he's the best leader for early fast expansion. His ability lets us find city locations and grab the resources we want faster and cheaper than any other leader. The fort protects new cities without building a military, and grow them quickly. The ability also reduces our need for an early military since all our settlers and workers can see 3 tiles, further than the 2:c5moves: speed of most barbarians. This is why I'm okay replacing the Minuteman, because it does not support Washington's expansionary theme.

Population movement (immigration) happens primarily at the start of the game in Civ 5, so lategame buildings cannot represent immigration. It's over by then.

I'd be okay with giving the US more of an economic bonus. However, the US had the characteristics I described long before the US became the dominant world power in the 1940's. It was a destination for immigrants for centuries, and scientific innovations like the telephone and Henry Ford style assembly line production occurred around 1900. Ragtime developed around that time too. Economic strength after the world wars amplified characteristics which already existed.


@mitsho
Ethiopia's tall empire theme seems like a good fit for the great person alliance bonus, since GPs are ideally suited for tall empires.

The Koreans specialize in scientific research, while a farm providing multiple yields turns it into a generalized improvement useful anywhere. It's opposite ends of the specialize-generalize scale.

Instant gold would be interesting on the Paper Maker. I'd been thinking about giving an effect like that to someone.


@Naeven
I agree that it'd be nice to see more leaders focused on specialists. I tried making Ottoman specialists better with +1 yields to represent that civ's administrative strengths, but it ended up being boring as a UA, since we rarely interact with specialists. I'd like to find some kind of specialist theme that does work.

@123john321
What version of Gem does your Palace show? There was a bug with the English ability a few versions ago, but it works in my current build. I'd recommend updating when I release Gem v1.11.

@sukritact
I agree, I think Siam is okay with its present +25% bonus to all citystate rewards.

I think a free luxury resource has to be part of a UA, I can't see how it would work as a UB or UI without scaling issues. But even so I still don't quite see how it would work.
What sort of scaling issues do you have in mind?

Korea starts with a worker, +1:c5science: farms, a unique National College giving +2:c5science: to scientists, and a unique trebuchet with a vs-unit bonus instead of vs-cities.

I'd be okay with adding more science to the paper maker. Minutemen get a free Recon 1 promotion for +1 sight and ignoring terrain costs.

The Iroquois road-to-forest connection system is buggy and often does not work, especially for forested hills.

You can have Carthage start with one copy of the dyes, and then gain an extra copy for every age.
I believe that would require core modding to accomplish. I'd like to find something we can do without core changes.

@Dunkah
I believe changing how flanking works would also require a core mod.

The difference between free happiness and a free luxury resource [on unique buildings] is that you can sell the latter for money (no other civ will have it), which is powerful early on, but it has a upper bar of effectiveness, namely when you have no more trading partners to sell it to. On small maps with few civs, this can mean a difference, while the straight happiness boost just facilitates ICS.
This is my thinking too.

@jma22tb
An infrastructure bonus sounds interesting for the Dutch UA. The combination of that and the Polder gives them the theme of "better infrastructure."
 
I'd agree the Austria UA is unique and interesting (and powerful), but it has the game-breaking effect of preventing liberating CS. If it didn't do that in some way, I'd be fine with it as it is now.

I'm not sure if it's gamebreaking, if there's a mod out there that corrects that, I'd be all for including it. Else, just keep it that way for the moment. In this case, I guess fun > balance is true.

In accordance with the Dutch/Carthage. I'd rather Carthage have some kind of ICS effect and play wider/expansionist/conquer because of the trade routes their UA encourages now which gives a particular feel as well.

The Dutch could play somewhat taller and rely more on trade with others (there's no particular reason they should be tall or wide, but they'd work fine either way with this kind of setup). As a gameplay effect it makes sense. The current UA doesn't do this in a very interesting way. A UA that gives them a free luxury per city might.

That's still true with luxuries for Carthage, but I agree, the Dutch work as a Tall OCC-Wide empire.

Possibly. Embarked land units do seem to get annihilated pretty fast by the boosted naval units. I think this is probably a general issue that goes beyond Danes.

Yes, let's try to buff embarked defense first. It's rather easy to snipe any unit easily at the moment and as there's no zone of control, there's not problem to go around enemy units and kill that one unit that's not below a ship. If you do it with a melee ship, you can then retreat again mostly...

I want to find a military in history which used better organization to combine fast mobile and ranged units (like Germany). I think this would be a fun ability. Mongol and Persian bonuses discourage this. Mongolia's Keshik and +1:c5moves: mounted reduces demand for ranged units, while Persia's +1:c5moves: for all discourages mobile units, since mobile gets less of a proportional bonus. What civilization would make sense for combining mobile with ranged?

Military Organization of course screams Rome for me: Roman Roads, Legions with Formation and Discipline. Only one small village in gaul could resist them. ;) Mobile/Ranged however does not fit best for the Gameplay Romans we have though.

Next fit may be Persians, but do we want to change a culture/GA civ to military again? If I go more towards Ranged/Mobile, it's the Songhai that come to mind. Or Morocco/Berbers, Sioux or more civs that are not in the game ;)

China could be feared with such a bonus, and the Art of War does somehow advocate Mobility, no? You also probably can't critique the Chinese for not being organized enough ;)

The GP-based ability I'm thinking of is something like +X% GP rate per major civ alliance, and we get free great people from citystates (similar to the Immigration policy). The problem with Sweden's UA was how they did the citystate part backwards. :lol:

I agree, they got it backwards. What would trigger the free great people from city states? Also that's practically the same effect for two different things. What if +x% GP rates per major civ alliance and + instant :c5culture: every time a GP is popped? Would work with the Nobel Prize theme (prestige from giving the prize to foreign great people). Though that obviously works also for Ethiopia, maybe with :c5faith: instead of :C5culture: and the idea that it gets you closer to the next Great Person... Though maybe :c5culture: is worth more... (Depending on the amount, it'd probably make them a real monster regarding culture victory...

The Iroquois bonuses are:

| Gem | Vanilla Faster |All forest and jungle everywhere|Forests in friendly territory
Starts with |Mohawk Warrior|Warrior
UU consumes |No strategic resource|Iron
UU bonus |Forest & Jungle|Forest
Longhouse |+10%:c5production: and +1:c5production: forest & jungle|+1:c5production: forest

sounds good enough! :goodjob:

I like Washington ...

I'd be okay with giving the US more of an economic bonus. However, the US had the characteristics I described long before the US became the dominant world power in the 1940's. It was a destination for immigrants for centuries, and scientific innovations like the telephone and Henry Ford style assembly line production occurred around 1900. Ragtime developed around that time too. Economic strength after the world wars amplified characteristics which already existed.

Any thought on the "the only civ without a UU"-thing? As for an economic bonus, the problem I see is rather to find one that is distinct and is strong in the late game... whereas the Rock Stadium is a pretty straightforward easy to mod thing.

@jma22tb
An infrastructure bonus sounds interesting for the Dutch UA. The combination of that and the Polder gives them the theme of "better infrastructure."

"improved ressources with acess to fresh water give +1 :c5production:"?

Any thought on the Germans and the various ideas floating around?
 
An infrastructure bonus sounds interesting for the Dutch UA. The combination of that and the Polder gives them the theme of "better infrastructure."
Coastal infrastructure? have all sources of water act as a source of fresh water? Would that be feasible? In any case, I'd prefer a bonus to something like free aqueducts.
 
Just as FYI, in vanilla GK mohawks are no iron required. The advantage in GEM is the innate swords bonuses against cities and higher strength of swords.

Thal, I don't think military reflecting better organisation through mobility is going to be easy to balance. It's extremely powerful to have +1 moves early on for flanking, retreat, mobbing units, etc. That's why horses are useful in fact. Making ranged units faster is likely generally to be unpopular (again keshiks and camels are really powerful for this reason). I think the concept is adequately represented by either increased speed for mobile units or the panzer and other faster UUs.

Mitsho, I don't know how a combined engineer/scientist would work (for GP generation especially). But I do like the idea of a productive and scientific society.
 
Mitsho, I don't know how a combined engineer/scientist would work (for GP generation especially). But I do like the idea of a productive and scientific society.

Simple, for Germany, Engineers would provide additional :c5science: as well, while Scientists provide additional :c5production:. As Engineers Slots are found on the military side of the tech tree, you can beeline conquest techs and still get a bit of science (but not enough to beat a civ that focuses on it). On the other hand, Scientist Slots are found on the peaceful part of the tech tree. So, with a peaceful playstyle, you can still get a few needed hammers without rushing the production buildings.

It actually increases the total amount of :c5production: and :c5science: available without giving them anything for free. And just imagine a combined Ironworks/National College City.
 
Ahh. I think that makes sense. But it relies heavily on specialist use. Which while always true given the current liberty tree, probably isn't something we want to have a civ based on with a UA, given the experience with the Ottomans.

I'd be fine with some coastal advantage for the Dutch too. Either on the polder or as part of the UA.

And an increase in embarked defence.

And no UU for the US with a) a free spy, b) some economic late game advantage (special stock exchanges/banks/labs/schools?, national wonder?), c) the current immigration styled advantage. I'd agree also the US period of economic growth and power precedes the great wars. US GDP already exceeded the British by the 1890s and was catching up by the Civil War. What changed was the hegemonic power scale for military abilities shifting from the British empire to the US and that started around 1900 and didn't really become the status quo until 1943 or so.
 
This is why I believe we should focus on the concept of superior organization instead of the specific time period or units.
That's fine, but we don't have game mechanics that represent organization well, and I haven't seen any suggested mechanics that would model this well in a way that would be good for gameplay.

I want to find a military in history which used better organization to combine fast mobile and ranged units (like Germany).
I think it is a mistake to think that German strategy, or superior organization in general for any civilization, necessarily has anything to do with "ranged units". Remember that ranged units in Civ5 are really indirect fire weapons - artillery, and archers - and that what counts as a ranged unit is on a sliding scale that varies over eras. Rifles and tanks aren't ranged, even if their weapons shoot further IRL than an archer does.

What civilization would make sense for combining mobile with ranged?
Why is this an appropriate goal? What does this have to do with organization or effective officer corps or good communications?

The strengths of the German WW2, and in some periods the US military, were based in part on well trained officers that had a significant degree of tactical autonomy. Get good people, put them in the field, let them make decisions.
This doesn't have anything to do with good use of archers or artillery.

And why would this be fun? Ranged units are already very powerful.

Really, superior organization probably just results in higher strength, or possibly higher bonuses from flanking (superior communication and coordination makes a flank attack more effective because it arrives at the right time).

I gave the Ottomans a Liburna because it's fun to use with their ship-capture ability. The other Ottoman bonuses are valued low by most players, so I figure things balance out in the end.
I'm ok to leave it for now, but the problem is that it gives tremendous early game anti-coastal-city power.

The GP-based ability I'm thinking of is something like +X% GP rate per major civ alliance, and we get free great people from citystates (similar to the Immigration policy).
I think mimicking a social policy isn't very interesting, but overall something like this is fine, with the caveats above that diplomatic bonuses make sense for very few major civs.

I feel the key problem with melee ships is they are good at capturing cities.
That's part of it, but the move after attack that allows for hit and run is also a big problem, because the AI naval performance is so limited by its sight range. If it has ships nearby and sees your units, then it will attack, but if your units are outside of its sight range, then their ships will just sit around.

I'm fine to leave Iroquois for now; I don't have recent experience with them, I need to test them before forming an opinion.

I like Washington because he's the best leader for early fast expansion. His ability lets us find city locations and grab the resources we want faster and cheaper than any other leader.
I just really don't find that at all. Early expansion isn't limited by sight range and movement speed, it is limited by happiness. So I don't find Washington's abilities to be helpful at all, and I think they have terrible flavor in representing why the USA matters in world history.

However, the US had the characteristics I described long before the US became the dominant world power in the 1940's. It was a destination for immigrants for centuries, and scientific innovations like the telephone and Henry Ford style assembly line production occurred around 1900.
The US was a minor power until the late 19th century, when the truly massive immigration flows began, and when the economic and industrial strength began. I agree that these characteristics predate the 1940s, but they don't predate 1900 by much.
Ragtime was not an important part of American power or influence; American music wasn't a really big deal internationally until post WW2.

Ethiopia's tall empire theme seems like a good fit for the great person alliance bonus, since GPs are ideally suited for tall empires.
But there is no historic flavor for Ethiopia being an alliance-broker.

Instant gold would be interesting on the Paper Maker. I'd been thinking about giving an effect like that to someone.
That doesn't seem very flavorful to me. And China if anything should be about patient, slow, gradual accumulation of power, not instant boosts.

What sort of scaling issues do you have in mind?
A free luxury resource from a UB becomes a problem when you have lots of cities, because you get too many copies. A unique improvement would be even worse - particularly with the Commerce policy that gives happiness even for excess copies of luxuries. I could spam the improvement everywhere and have infinite happiness. Tying it to a building also prevents a Tall playstyle - and certainly the Netherlands of all civs should be able to build up a big economy without needing a lot of land.

I like the idea of having it as part of the Dutch UA, where you get an extra copy for each era.

An infrastructure bonus sounds interesting for the Dutch UA. The combination of that and the Polder gives them the theme of "better infrastructure."
The Polder is sufficient to model Dutch infrastructure IMO. I would prefer that the UA remain trade/luxury related.

Yes, let's try to buff embarked defense first
Agreed.

China could be feared with such a bonus, and the Art of War does somehow advocate Mobility, no?
The Art of War already seems to model superior organization and leadership to me.

I'm really lost as to why we need a civ that focuses on foot archers and cavalry. Those just don't really go well together.

As for an economic bonus, the problem I see is rather to find one that is distinct and is strong in the late game.
Gold per pop on a stock exchange UB.

"improved ressources with acess to fresh water give +1 "?
Probably too strong, especially in the early game, and favors rivers and lakes rather than coasts, which goes against real world Dutch flavor.

Free aqueducts doesn't make sense to me; if any civ gets an aqueduct bonus it should be Rome. I'd be tempted to drop the ballista from Rome (it has poor synergy with the Legion anyway, and isn't nearly so iconic) and give them Cloaca as an aqueduct UB that gave happiness per city, to help them build a sprawling empire.

Mitsho, I don't know how a combined engineer/scientist would work
I think the idea is to simply give Germany +production on engineers and +science on scientists, or vice versa. Similar to Korea.
In fact we could just limit it to engineers to make them more different; bonuses on engineers and manufactory great improvements.
German engineering is very much an iconic thing.
 
Which while always true given the current liberty tree, probably isn't something we want to have a civ based on with a UA, given the experience with the Ottomans.
I don't see the problem. The Ottomans had issues because it boosted all specialists, not just specialists of one or two types, but it wasn't terrible overall.
Another alternative, which I like even better: give extra GPPs for engineers and scientists, not extra production or science. And maybe boost academies/manufactories.
 
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