Afforess
The White Wizard
I'd need to look to double check, but just Rams.
Another less extreme possibility is to just code some sort of "hack" in the AI to tell them to never build those units based on some XML value.
General A New Dawn discussion
- Thread starter Rezca
- Start date
I'd need to look to double check, but just Rams.
Another less extreme possibility is to just code some sort of "hack" in the AI to tell them to never build those units based on some XML value.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Unless someone adds in a Prehistoric modmod, I really don't think cutting them would lose much of value. By the time I ever meet another civilization (On anything larger than Duel or Small) I've already unlocked Battering Rams. Rams themselves I only ever rarely see, and have only ever seen in use when Barbarians attacked me in some Barbarian World games.
But, if someone else finds them useful to their game, then maybe tricking the AI into never building them would be better.
@Rezca: Yes that was about unit-per-tile. I worked a bit on it yesterday and i think i've fixed the reason why the game crashed. I also set a UNITS_PER_TILES_CITY_FACTOR which multiply the unit-per-tile by a factor (3 by default). So with a factor 3 and 3UPT, that means 9 units on cities. If there are still crash, we might put this factor to unlimited but i guess that will make AI war a little boring.
I launched a fully automated AI run and the game crashed in 1700, but i suspected that is not the reason, so i went to sleep. That's good news.
I launched a fully automated AI run and the game crashed in 1700, but i suspected that is not the reason, so i went to sleep. That's good news.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Before removing rams, try out the latest revision with default civs number. Increasing it like I've done make it possible to run into other civs sooner than usual.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
45°38'N-13°47'E;13685750 said:
Sure...
But if it's the same, I vote for removing all 3.
Maybe we could replace the 3 Ram units with a Battering Ram promotion for melee units giving bonus to city attack and/or giving them the ability to slightly lower city defense.
@dbkblk
Great news! Than I can use UPT with value 10 which means 30 in a city, right?
Yes, that's right. The patch is on hold right now as i want to prevent the cities to build units if they cannot move around.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Battering Rams I've actually used, and Siege Rams are fine as well. Actually made for good medic units at times doubling as city gate crashers. the 'Log' Rams on the other hand, I don't know.
I'm not 100% sure the Battering Ram and Siege Ram are needed in AND as they are, but I'm not fully convinced they need to be axed either. I've never been big on removing things I personally find something useless. I hate Realistic Corporations and Unit Per Tile limits (UPT is why I won't buy Civ5), but other people like them. I've used the Siege Ram quite a bit, it might not be able to attack like the Catapult and Trebuchet, but I wouldn't think it's useless. If all three do get removed I won't lose any sleep over it, but I wouldn't remove the latter two if people are still finding use for them.
One other thing we need to keep in mind though is how this will affect the Tech Tree and if it might make certain techs 'weaker', which we've been trying to keep each technology offering just a right amount of content, removing all three rams might affect that. "Might" anyway.
os79
Deity
I vote for improving AI use of siege weapons so that they throw appropriate units that actually have some chance of inflicting damage. Then check if AI understand to use siege weapons to accompany their stack (doom or not) to degrade city defenses mainly.
Otherwise, I concur that these city defense degrading units are pointless because the other line of siege weapons already do the job, even if slower.
Otherwise, I concur that these city defense degrading units are pointless because the other line of siege weapons already do the job, even if slower.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
A little advice, please:
How does Coinage exactly work?
It says:
+1
per city with access to Gold
+0,5 per city with access to Silver
So does it mean that
a) I get +1 for every city that has access to Gold resource?
b) I get +1 for every Gold in city vicinity?
If a) does it matter if I have access to 2 or more resources in my cities?
__________________________________
And an other thing:
I wonder why Tribal gives gives +15%
and 
It seems about as good as Caste or even better
I think we could drop the +15% and from Tribal, don't you think?
How does Coinage exactly work?
It says:
+1
per city with access to Gold+0,5
per city with access to SilverSo does it mean that
a) I get +1
for every city that has access to Gold resource?b) I get +1
for every Gold in city vicinity?If a) does it matter if I have access to 2 or more resources in my cities?
__________________________________
And an other thing:
I wonder why Tribal gives gives +15%
and It seems about as good as Caste or even better
I think we could drop the +15%
and from Tribal, don't you think?
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
A little advice, please:
How does Coinage exactly work?
View attachment 389690
It says:
+1
+0,5
So does it mean that
a) I get +1
b) I get +1
If a) does it matter if I have access to 2 or more resources in my cities?
__________________________________
And an other thing:
I wonder why Tribal gives gives +15%
View attachment 389688
It seems about as good as Caste or even better
View attachment 389689
I think we could drop the +15%
I think the main downside to Tribal is that you lose money while running it, whereas Caste you don't. If you think you can live with the reduced income per city, then Tribal probably would be the better thing to run. Sometimes I skip Caste for quite a while (Especially because of that GPP hit ouch!)
I also tended to not use Divine Cult that much, at least not before the negatives on it were dialed down a little. I still don't use it all too often though.
I've got 1 full AI run at 2 units/tiles and 1 at 1u/t. One crash at 1u/t, that i've fixed.
I'll set city limit at x6 the limit of a tile, because a city has theorically 9 tiles around that could be filled of units. To be fair, x6 is better than x3. That also makes mountaineous or costal cities more easy to defend from lands.
Now, i'm trying to fix 1unit/tile. I think it can be done be preventing a city to build an unit if the area is already filled of units.
I'll set city limit at x6 the limit of a tile, because a city has theorically 9 tiles around that could be filled of units. To be fair, x6 is better than x3. That also makes mountaineous or costal cities more easy to defend from lands.
Now, i'm trying to fix 1unit/tile. I think it can be done be preventing a city to build an unit if the area is already filled of units.
Afforess
The White Wizard
A little advice, please:
How does Coinage exactly work?
View attachment 389690
It says:
+1
+0,5
So does it mean that
a) I get +1
b) I get +1
If a) does it matter if I have access to 2 or more resources in my cities?
It's A. Every city with access gets +1 gold per gold resource. If you have multiple, you get more gold. 5 gold resources = +5 gold per turn, per city with access. It can generate a lot of wealth in the right conditions.
Afforess
The White Wizard
The AI understand how to use siege units, the issue is that Rams are basically the exception to the entire system of siege units, and the AI is terrible with dealing with exceptions to rules. Normally siege units cause collateral damage and are strong relative to the strength of other units in the era. Rams do neither. So the AI thinks it can use Rams to cause collateral damage and it can't, and the AI thinks it's a decent unit in terms of
, but it's not."Fixing" AI behavior here is tricky, since it could make the AI worse at using normal siege units.
Since I'm the one responsible for the Ram units, I think I should give some background as to why they are the way they currently are.
The basic Ram came first when I created the Woodworking tech. I added a few techs to the tech tree as one of the first things I did when I started working on AND, and Woodworking was one of them. To give Woodworking a decent amount of content to start, I gave it all of the Woodcutter improvement, Carpenter building, Palisade building, and Ram unit. I thought 4 tricks was better than just starting with 2. I'm also a fan of being able to mix military and non-military content in a single tech (if I had to pick my least favorite techs right now, I would probably choose the dedicated naval combat and mounted combat techs). Also, I thought the Rams would be acceptable to allow Barbarians to build to attack cities with. They don't get any other siege units.
The Battering Ram came about because I wanted the Ram to have an upgrade path, Warfare didn't have any actual units of its own, and in general I didn't want to force players to wait all the way until Siege Warfare to get a unit that can bombard. Siege Ram is just to have a mid-point between Battering Ram and Bombard.
The basic Ram came first when I created the Woodworking tech. I added a few techs to the tech tree as one of the first things I did when I started working on AND, and Woodworking was one of them. To give Woodworking a decent amount of content to start, I gave it all of the Woodcutter improvement, Carpenter building, Palisade building, and Ram unit. I thought 4 tricks was better than just starting with 2. I'm also a fan of being able to mix military and non-military content in a single tech (if I had to pick my least favorite techs right now, I would probably choose the dedicated naval combat and mounted combat techs). Also, I thought the Rams would be acceptable to allow Barbarians to build to attack cities with. They don't get any other siege units.
The Battering Ram came about because I wanted the Ram to have an upgrade path, Warfare didn't have any actual units of its own, and in general I didn't want to force players to wait all the way until Siege Warfare to get a unit that can bombard. Siege Ram is just to have a mid-point between Battering Ram and Bombard.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
When I had lots of barbarian activity in the past (Hope to see that again!) the barbarians were a lot more threatening in the early game because of those rams. In most cases they'd just suicide entire stacks on a city with walls and archers because of the defenses, with the rams they actually could do a bit of damage by breaking the defenses down. There was quite a difference when they attacked with and when without.
os79
Deity
The AI understand how to use siege units, the issue is that Rams are basically the exception to the entire system of siege units, and the AI is terrible with dealing with exceptions to rules. Normally siege units cause collateral damage and are strong relative to the strength of other units in the era. Rams do neither. So the AI thinks it can use Rams to cause collateral damage and it can't, and the AI thinks it's a decent unit in terms of
"Fixing" AI behavior here is tricky, since it could make the AI worse at using normal siege units.
I want to understand this.
1.AI already know how to use siege units, meaning the code is there already.
2. Out of all Siege units, Ram is an exception because it doesn't Collateral Damage but just degrade city defenses.
3. Rams are strong but only defend.
4. So AI is terrible because it doesn't recognize 2 and 3.
5. Fixing this will complicate things further because...
Is that about it?
Why not tag Rams with emphasis on using city degrading Bombardment so that even if it doesn't Collateral Damage, it still degrade city defenses?
Why not teach AI about defend only units?
oldnooob
Prince
It's not reasonable at all!
Afforess
The White Wizard
Rams aren't strong, but they only defend.
Otherwise your summery is correct. The AI understands how to use rams. the problem is they don't understand how many to build. The AI judges it's strength based on the power ratio of it's units compared to other civs. It also expects to have a certain percent of it's power in siege units. Rams are the only early siege units, and have a low power, so the AI must build many of them to reach it's quota. This is a bad strategy ... but only for this specific case. Normal catapults, trebuchets, etc are stronger and it is fine to build these, since they are offensive units.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Maybe the problem that confuses the AI is that rams are only defensive siege units.Personally i cannot understand how a siege unit can be only defensive.It doesn't sound reasonable to me.
I can't imagine a lumbering, slow moving ram being a very good option to use against human and mounted troops though - only stationary walls and gates
But, once those humans with weapons get up and close, the guys carrying that cumbersome log ram have to defend themselves.
They can defend, just not go out and adequately attack.
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