Geo Realism: Discussion on a new SDK based map generator

Depends on the context of the temporary allocation and its total size. If you mean wholy within some method call, then (apart from multi-threaded parts of the code maybe) it should be ok if it's not TOO large (a few tens of megabytes will be ok in general, but once you stray into hundreds it's likely to have an impact). If you mean over some longer time period, during which significant other processing occurs (say a turn duration before it gets freed) it may be more likely to cause problems, since your allocations, even though temporary are likely to increase hap fragmentation. If that is the case then you might want to use a private heap for the objects concerned, and free the entire heap when done.

Can you provide more information about what it is that you're optimizing, that you wish to use large temporary allocation within.

I am doing profiling of the main algorithm methods (steps) now. This includes memory and time. This is only during map creation OR map checking after (or during if necessary) the World Builder is used and only temporary. So it should not be a for a significant amount of time.

I will keep an eye on how much allocation is being done. (although it will be a bit difference since the test environment is programmed in .NET). Thanks for the help!
 
OOPS.... meant for new terrains thread

The first thing that needs to be established is that the GeoRealism mod separates soil from most vegetation. The only kind of vegetation that is considered to be part of the "terrain" is "Micro-vegetation such as grass. In addition to micro-cover vegetation there are types of soils to consider

Vegetations that would be considered to be "micro cover"
Short Grasses
Ferns (and other forest floor foliage)
Flowers
Weeds
"Tiny" bushes

Basic soil types and their Scientific Classification

Non-Soils
Rocky (Entisol), Barren (Inceptisols)

Dry Soils:
Sand (Aridosols)

Soils requiring a description (in order of increasing “wetness”)
Soil Type | Description | Climate of Formation
Gelisols|permafrost soils|Tundra; low altitude, non-coastal, boreal forests (Tiaga)
Mollisols|black, soft, grassland soils. These are the TRUE LUSH soils|Limited seasonal rains
Histosols|(highly organic soils of colder regions)|Cooler, Limited seasonal rains
Vertisols|shrinking and swelling clay soils|Warmer, extensive seasonal rains
Spodisols|(Acidic, coniferous forest soils )|West coast forests, highland forests
Andisols|Soils formed in volcanic material|(not specific to climate)
Alfisols|Deciduous forest soils|East coast forests
Ultisols|East coast, highly weathered short-grassland soils|Extreme seasonal rains, monsoon
Histosols|Soils formed in organic materials; high detritus|Swamps and marshlands
Oxisols|Extremely weathered tropical soils|Tropical rainforests, monsoon

Here is my suggested breakdown of Terrain Types (in order of increasing wetness)
NOTE: Some of the “TerrainsMod” suggestions may already be in use by C2C. I currently don’t have access to the graphics though to check since they are packed up in an archive file. Also note that one or two of these were not in the original list we decided on.

New Terrain Type | Soil Type | Micro-vegetation type | Existing Terrain Type/Graphic
Dunes|Aridosol|(none)|Dunes
Desert|Aridosol|(none)|Desert
(SaltFlats*)|Aridosol|(none)|Salt flats *IMO THIS SHOULD BE A FEATURE, NOT A TERRAIN
Scrub|Aridosol|some small shrubbery|Scrub
Rocky|Entisol|(none)|Rocky
Barren|Inceptisol|(none)|Barren
Tundra|Gelisol|(none)| TerrainsMod Permafrost
Tiaga|Coastal Gelisol|occasional grass, weeds, scrubs|Tundra
RichLoam|Mollisol|occasional weeds| (NEEDED)
Plains|Histosol|occasional weeds|Plains
HumidScrub|Vertisol|sparse grass, occasional weeds and shrubs|Current Lush (with different stats)
Boreal|Spodisol|(none)|Alpine Tundra OR Temperate Broadleaf (both from TerrainsMod)
Coniferous|Spodisol|Ferns|TerrainsMod Mediterranean
Deciduous|Alfisol|Ferns|TerrainsMod Subtropical Rainforest
Grass|Altisol|Grass|Grass
Marsh|Histosol|Marsh grass|Marsh
Swamp|Histosol|(none)| (NEEDED) OR Modified Lush OR Possibly TerrainsMod SubTropical Dry
Savanna|(Mollisol, Altisol, or Alfisol? Uncertain|Grass|TerrainsMod Tree Savanna
Rainforest|Oxisol|Ferns, Tropical Forest Vegitation|SubTropical Dry OR Tropical Rainforest(Both from TerrainsMod)
Mud|(Deforested Oxisol/Altisol)|(None)|Mud
Volcanic|Andisol|Varies|TerrainsMod Tropical Rainforest

A breakdown of which terrains would be used in which climates can be done later. I will post it in the GeoRealism Vegetation thread because essentially, that is what this kind of post would be explaining.

NOTE: Which graphics are used for items whose last columns say "...OR..." in them are up for grabs. Lets discuss them.

Just in case.... here are the terrains used in the "Terrains Mod"
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NOTE: We should probably add another Andisol (volcanic soil) for cold climate volcanos
 
@primem0ver

Here is my proposal ...

attachment.php


- Dunes = Dunes (Default C2C)
- Desert = Desert (Default C2C)
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats (Default C2C)
- Scrub = Scrub (Default C2C)
- Rocky = Rocky (Default C2C)
- Barren = Arid Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Tundra = Ice (Default C2C)
- Taiga = Permafrost (Default C2C)
- Rich Loam = Grassland (Dune Wars)
- Plains = Plains (Alt Terrain C2C)
- Humid Scrub = Lush (Default C2C)
- Boreal = Tundra (Default C2C)
- Coniferous = Mediterranean (Terrain Mod)
- Deciduous = Subtropical Rainforest (Terrain Mod)
- Grass = Grassland (Vanilla Civ4)
- Marsh = Marsh (Default C2C)
- Swamp = Wet Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Savanna = Tree Savanna (Terrain Mod)
- Rainforest = Grassland (Default C2C)
- Mud = Muddy (Default C2C)
- Volcanic = Rocky Rainy (Planetfall Mod)
- Volcanic Cold = Barren (Default C2C)

Note that C2C and the Terrain Mod share some terrain art such as ...

Tundra (Default C2C) = Tundra (Terrain Mod)
Permafrost (Default C2C) = Alpine Tundra (Terrain Mod)
Ice (Default C2C) = Polar (Terrain Mod)
Grassland (Default C2C) = Tropical Rainforest (Terrain Mod)

This is why I changed some of your suggestion to include other mods such as Planetfall and Dune Wars. This proposal I think allows for all terrains to be distinguishable from each other.
 
- Dunes = Dunes (Default C2C)
- Desert = Desert (Default C2C)
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats (Default C2C)
- Scrub = Scrub (Default C2C)
- Rocky = Rocky (Default C2C)
- Barren = Arid Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Tundra = Ice (Default C2C)
- Taiga = Permafrost (Default C2C)
- Rich Loam = Grassland (Dune Wars)
- Plains = Plains (Alt Terrain C2C)
- Humid Scrub = Lush (Default C2C)
- Boreal = Tundra (Default C2C)
- Coniferous = Mediterranean (Terrain Mod)
- Deciduous = Subtropical Rainforest (Terrain Mod)
- Grass = Grassland (Vanilla Civ4)
- Marsh = Marsh (Default C2C)
- Swamp = Wet Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Savanna = Tree Savanna (Terrain Mod)
- Rainforest = Grassland (Default C2C)
- Mud = Muddy (Default C2C)
- Volcanic = Rocky Rainy (Planetfall Mod)
- Volcanic Cold = Barren (Default C2C)

I think Tundra (Ice) should be named Polar or Arctic and Taiga (Permafrost) should be named Tundra.

Can we get an alternate name for Humid Scrub? Even if its "accurate" its going to confuse people. Perhaps an Alternate name for Cold Volcanic as well.
 
I think Tundra (Ice) should be named Polar or Arctic and Taiga (Permafrost) should be named Tundra.

Can we get an alternate name for Humid Scrub? Even if its "accurate" its going to confuse people. Perhaps an Alternate name for Cold Volcanic as well.

Lets continue this discussion in the terrains thread. I mistakenly posted my original response here.

In the terrains thread I have stated that I forgot an important textures: polar
 
Here are my likes and issues with your proposal:
  • Tundra is completely wrong. I realize I forgot one soil: ice. So Ice needs to remain ice (add that to my list). Tundra is an arctic desert so having it covered with ice would be wrong.
  • I like your new choice for barren.
  • Tiaga needs some vegetation/green. Unless you can find a better graphic, I am sticking with my recommendation of using the vanilla tundra.
  • Boreal needs a cold pine needle look which is why I chose the graphic I did. I am going to stick with my recommendation (use the temperate broadleaf; not the alpine tundra)
  • Rich loam has the wrong color soil (should be dark brown) and WAY too much grass. However, this graphic might work for Humid Scrub. Basically rich loam should be a darker version of plains with a tiny bit of green. One way to get this might be to darken the savannah picture.
  • Humid Scrub is WAY too green. An example of what I am calling "Humid Scrub" soil is found in the middle of Texas. San Antonio and west to just east of Fort Stockton. (See my picture below)
  • Your deciduous picture seems to be the Subtropical dry. I agree with your worded choice though.
  • Your choice for Swamp isn’t bad but it is a little too green. Needs a very wet look.
  • I like your volcanic choice except that we need to add some green and soil color. It is TOO rocky.
  • Same with cold volcanic. We should add some vegetation (or maybe use vanilla tundra if not used for tiaga)

1. I was going to have ice as ice but since you did not list it I thought maybe you were combining ice and tundra into one biome type. That's great new since I would like to keep them separate too.

2. Thanks. I thought so too since we had already discussed my black barren was more volcanic looking than barren.

3. So that would mean that C2C Default Tundra becomes the New Tundra and Civ4 Vanilla becomes the New Taiga? Or would you rather the Terrain Mod Temperate Broadleaf? I plan to update my chart with the changes.

4. Well the graphic was originally our "Lush" but somewhere long the way someone changed it to the Lush we have. I would be happy to have this as Humid Scrub. Plus it matches the small patches of green on the Muddy terrain if you notice.

5. I would be happy to get rid of it. Note that's our current "Lush" but I never really liked the graphic for it.

6. Those terrains are really close to each other. There are like 3 terrain in the Terrain mod that are so close together I could hardly tell them apart. Which is why its ok to use one of them but not all 3 since they are too close in color and shade.

7. Well its the best I could find without looking like the other terrains. :( I thought it look like it had pond scum or other water plants growing on it.

8. What? It has green plants and black rocks. Itsn't that your typical volcanic terrain? Having like obsidian-like rocks and stuff? Like this ...

5044123437_c97231f6a3.jpg


9. So for Cold Volcanic like this?
 
@primem0ver

An updated proposal ...
attachment.php


- Dunes = Dunes (Default C2C)
- Desert = Desert (Default C2C)
- Salt Flats = Salt Flats (Default C2C)
- Scrub = Scrub (Default C2C)
- Rocky = Rocky (Default C2C)
- Barren = Arid Flat (Planetfall Mod)
- Tundra = Tundra (Default C2C)
- Taiga = Permafrost (Default C2C)
- Rich Loam = Plains (Default C2C)
- Plains = Plains (Alt Terrain C2C)
- Humid Scrub = Grassland (Dune Wars)
- Boreal = Temperate Broadleaf (Terrain Mod)
- Coniferous = Mediterranean (Terrain Mod)
- Deciduous = Subtropical Dry (Terrain Mod)
- Grass = Grassland (Vanilla Civ4)
- Marsh = Marsh (Default C2C)
- Swamp = Flat Rainy (Planetfall Mod)
- Savanna = Tree Savanna (Terrain Mod)
- Rainforest = Grassland (Default C2C)
- Mud = Muddy (Default C2C)
- Volcanic = Rocky Rainy (Planetfall Mod)
- Volcanic Cold = Tundra (Vanilla Civ4)
- Ice = Ice (Default C2C)

Note I still think Boreal and Deciduous look way too similar. Plus I really like the Volcanic and Swamp textures.

So what do you think?
 
We can change the graphics for terrain without breaking save games.

We can add new terrains and terrain features without breaking save games. However we would need to make sure the map scripts can support the new terrains and give the map makers enough time to convert.

We cannot change terrains to features without breaking save games unless we keep the old as well as the new but make the old not used in the map scripts. It may be possible to do the latter by making the terrain or terrain feature graphical only, I am not sure.

We can test this out if we want to change Salt Flats to a feature rather than a terrain. Which I think is a good idea.
 
8. What? It has green plants and black rocks. Itsn't that your typical volcanic terrain? Having like obsidian-like rocks and stuff? Like this ...

Well yes... when your only a few miles away from the volcano. However, keep in mind that we are talking about a square next to the volcano and that these squares can be 200 miles wide or more. The nutrients from volcanic soil can be dispersed throughout the region.
 
I posted this previously. I found some graphics I like in the infinite terrains mod that will work nicely for...

Rich Loam
Swamp
(Humid Scrub)
Tiaga,
and Cold volcano.

But there are some problems.... see below.

@Dancing Hoskuld
No need to post textures. I have been able to see them for myself (in game).


@everyone
I really like some of these textures (in the infinite texture mod) and I think we can make them work. However, these textures seem to have a problem. I wanted to post some options for the terrains we are still debating but...

When these textures are placed on textures from the same mod, they don't blend with surrounding textures and the actual place that gets changed is often offset from the plot I place the texture on. Notice that on your picture? See how blocky and unblended it looks? Why is this happening? Can we fix that?

NOTE: The picture I am referring too is in this post.
 
Well I want to submit some more options for vote. However.... see the issues in my last post.
 
We can change the graphics for terrain without breaking save games.

We can add new terrains and terrain features without breaking save games. However we would need to make sure the map scripts can support the new terrains and give the map makers enough time to convert.

We cannot change terrains to features without breaking save games unless we keep the old as well as the new but make the old not used in the map scripts. It may be possible to do the latter by making the terrain or terrain feature graphical only, I am not sure.

We can test this out if we want to change Salt Flats to a feature rather than a terrain. Which I think is a good idea.

1. You mean just the same tags right? The graphics and names can be changed as long as they are all used? So like Permafrost can be renamed to Taiga but keep the tag of TERRAIN_PERMAFROST?

2. I am open to salt flats becoming a terrain feature, but only if it looks good. Otherwise I think it should be kept as a terrain.
 
AIAndy explained some of the issues with fixing the terrain on the Infinite Terrain thread but I did not understand well enough to do anything about it. Perhaps Sparth does?
 
Well I want to submit some more options for vote. However.... see the issues in my last post.

I have not see them, so I don't know why they are so blocky. I recognize some of the textures though. They appear to be from Age of Empires 3 terrain. DH is the most knowledgeable on terrain graphics I think.

Though Questdog did the alt terrain graphics. Perhaps he could help out if he is still around.

On a side note which of your terrain would be appropriate for a Monsoon Forest?
 
Hopefully it will be resolved soon because there are some great graphic choices for swamps, rich loam and cold volcanic and some decent ones for the others too.
 
Ok I got it :)
Infiniter Terrain mod gives only _detail.dds textures. Which means they we need also blend textures which can be uses from existing one textures (grass, marsh, plains, rocky etc)

Example code for new grassland texture:

Code:
		<TerrainArtInfo>
			<Type>ART_DEF_TERRAIN_TERRA_GRASS</Type>
			<Path>Art/Terrain/Textures/blend/lushGrassBlend.dds</Path>
			<Grid>Art/Terrain/Textures/blend/lushGrassGrids.dds</Grid>
			<Detail>Art/Terrain/Textures/detail/[B]INFINITEGRASSETAIL.dds[/B]</Detail>
			<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/BaseTerrain/DuneGrassland.dds</Button>
			<LayerOrder>8</LayerOrder>
			<AlphaShader>0</AlphaShader>
			<TextureBlend01>8,0</TextureBlend01>
			<TextureBlend02>1,0</TextureBlend02>
			<TextureBlend04>6,0</TextureBlend04>
			<TextureBlend08>5,0</TextureBlend08>
			<TextureBlend03>2,0</TextureBlend03>
			<TextureBlend06>10,0</TextureBlend06>
			<TextureBlend12>12,0</TextureBlend12>
			<TextureBlend09>9,0</TextureBlend09>
			<TextureBlend07>3,0</TextureBlend07>
			<TextureBlend14>14,0</TextureBlend14>
			<TextureBlend13>11,0</TextureBlend13>
			<TextureBlend11>4,0</TextureBlend11>
			<TextureBlend10>7,0</TextureBlend10>
			<TextureBlend05>13,0</TextureBlend05>
			<TextureBlend15>15,0 16,0 18,0 19,0 20,0 21,0 22,0 23,0 24,0 25,0 26,0 27,0 28,0 29,0 30,0 31,0 32,0</TextureBlend15>
		</TerrainArtInfo>
 
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